Circular Polarized Lenses - God Rays no longer. — Oculus
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Circular Polarized Lenses - God Rays no longer.

oOunknownuserOooOunknownuserOo Posts: 331
Nexus 6
So for sh*ts and giggles I decided to place a couple of my drones circular polarized lenses over the CV1 and night and day difference,  the god rays disappeared.

I tried a couple filters ND8/CP

and graduated ND16-8

The only thing with circular polarized lenses is that as you turn them you either have more light enter in, or you cut more out.    

These filters are godsend when shooting aerial photography with drones and you have sun flare,  

question is how could we mount them??
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Comments

  • SyrellarisSyrellaris Posts: 1,035
    3Jane
    Generally these type of filters used for camera's are screw in filters. Meaning you would have to attach a screw in mount in front of the lenses.
  • Greenfire32Greenfire32 Posts: 365
    Trinity
    perhaps you could send VR Lens Lab an email. I know they're working on prescription lens mounts for the Rift, and I don't see why they couldn't adapt for something like this.

    You'd probably have to pay extra of course since it's not something they're actively looking into, but it's worth a shot
  • oOunknownuserOooOunknownuserOo Posts: 331
    Nexus 6
    edited May 2016
    Generally these type of filters used for camera's are screw in filters. Meaning you would have to attach a screw in mount in front of the lenses.
    Yes, they either come as screw in, or clip / push on.

    However, obviously this is where we would need to modify how these would mount.  

    I am wondering if something 3d printed that could slip inside the CV1 mask.
  • SyrellarisSyrellaris Posts: 1,035
    3Jane
    Would that mount alone not create new issues, like distance of your eyes from the Lenses? Seems like something that also would only work if someone does not wear glasses as a mount like that would reduce space for glasses as well.
  • DreamwriterDreamwriter Posts: 1,101
    3Jane
    edited May 2016
    That doesn't make any sense at all - are you sure you aren't just losing a lot of saturation from the image or something, so you can't notice them? I mean, the god rays aren't lights shining out at your eyes like a bright light that another lens could cancel, they are bright colors shining sideways from one ring to the next on top of the image below, making it so that the colors beneath have that color added to them. Thus you can't fix them by placing a lens in front of the existing lenses.
  • oOunknownuserOooOunknownuserOo Posts: 331
    Nexus 6
    Would that mount alone not create new issues, like distance of your eyes from the Lenses? Seems like something that also would only work if someone does not wear glasses as a mount like that would reduce space for glasses as well.
    I wear glasses and tried it putting the filter in front of it.  It worked like a charm,  but I was holding it of course.  

    I closed one eye, and alternated and night and day difference.

    Of course my filters are probably overkill, as everything darkened somewhat.   There are different levels of filters.
  • Ricktor_BlackRicktor_Black Posts: 198
    Art3mis
    Yeah, it sounds like what these guys are working on would be perfect for this:

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/451454651/vr-lens-lab-glasses-for-virtual-reality-headsets

    Instead of prescription lenses you could put specially cut filters in.  I actually backed this Kickstarter because I don't want to wear my glasses in the Rift.
  • oOunknownuserOooOunknownuserOo Posts: 331
    Nexus 6
    That doesn't make any sense at all - are you sure you aren't just losing a lot of saturation from the image or something, so you can't notice them? I mean, the god rays aren't lights shining out at your eyes like a bright light that another lens could cancel, they are bright colors shining sideways from one ring to the next on top of the image below, making it so that the colors beneath have that color added to them. Thus you can't fix them by placing a lens in front of the existing lenses.

    Not sure to be honest.   There is such a slight ray I would consider it a non issue.

    I also have polarized magnetic clip on for my prescription glasses which gives a different effect.   The drone circularized seem to really filter everything out as you can turn them to the degree you want.

    At any rate - I tried playing ED and all those dash rays seem to be gone or minimized to a great extent.

    I tried putting a movie on,  totally comfortable. 
  • SarlinSarlin Posts: 182

    @oOunknownuserOo are you sure that it's the lenses and not that they increased the focal length?  Just curious as you said things looked better when you were a bit further away.  I think it's very interesting that the "god rays" are able to be filtered via polarized lenses.  Sorta makes sense but would not have thought of it.  Good thought!

  • SyrellarisSyrellaris Posts: 1,035
    3Jane
    Polarizing filters don't change vocal length, it just effects the way light is filtered. Any screen, with or without lenses emits light.
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,738 Volunteer Moderator
    I thought one of those might help (I do photography myself)... thanks for the update @oOunknownuserOo ... I think @DaftnDirect  tried using linear polarisers ... without any luck ... 

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  • ZuhZuh Posts: 256
    Nexus 6
    I thought one of those might help (I do photography myself)... thanks for the update @oOunknownuserOo ... I think @DaftnDirect  tried using linear polarisers ... without any luck ... 

    I think circulars have been mentioned in that topic as well. I have read about them somewhere before. 
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,718 Valuable Player
    edited May 2016

    I did indeed try a linear filter.

    For the life of me I can't figure out how a circular polorizer would work... iirc a circular polorizer has a linear polorizing layer which filters out the polorized light in a particular direction as usual... then it has a circular layer which then radiates the resulting filtered light back out so the camera metering isn't affected... so it acts exactly the same as a linear filter as far as how it deals with the light being emitted from a screen.. it just differs in how it allows a cameras metering system to pick up a more accurate level.

    My linear filter made no difference to the rays because they didn't appear to be polorized. So the linear element of the circular polorizing filter wouldn't filter them either.. and the circular element would just circulate already circulated light.

    Or am I missing something?



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  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,738 Volunteer Moderator
    @DaftnDirect that sounds about right .. perhaps it somehow works for light coming from Fresnel Lens?

    Ugh this is all a guessing game at the moment ...!! ..

    Could be that less light reaches his eye thusly the god ray effect is somewhat diminished by the change in image contrast,.
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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,718 Valuable Player

    @LZoltowski, yeah, if anything, the circular Fresnels would cause light to be emitted in a circular polorized fashion... so the only thing I can think that would work is a filter that filters circular polorized light... but I don't think such things exist, and it would theoretically filter out everything, not just the flares.

    I have a feeling you may be right in that the dimming effect of the filter is what's helping here. I wasn't happy with the overall dimmed effect my filter gave though.

    I'd just like to say I'm no physicist so I could be 100% wrong about this.

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  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,738 Volunteer Moderator
    @DaftnDirect same here .. it is all speculation here .. 
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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,718 Valuable Player
    I should really pick up a circ filter anyway, it's better than linear because of the potential metering problems... next time I'm in town, I'll pick one up and see if i can get the same results
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  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,738 Volunteer Moderator
    @DaftnDirect  cheers man!

    My pre rift amazon order grows larger

    • Sensor Mount
    • Lens Brush
    • Circular Polariser
    • Blu Tack
    • Better chair
    • Catheter to mitigate toilet breaks
    • 10 cc's of adrenaline to kick-start my heart from horror rift experiences
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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,718 Valuable Player
    edited May 2016

    ...I really hope your'e not disappointed when you get it

    Edit, speaking of which... I haven't used mine for a couple days and it's about time I had some fun... VR I'm on my way!

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  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,738 Volunteer Moderator
    @DaftnDirect   ... I do not have expectations .. I am incredibly patient, understanding of tech constraints (as I am a techy person who reads all sorts of science books) and I know what I am getting into with a first gen device .. have done it many many times ... 

    You should have seen my face and hours of amusement with my first Furby ! lol

    Enjoy the VR .. and I hope to see you and many others there soon! ... It can only get better from here right?
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  • SyrellarisSyrellaris Posts: 1,035
    3Jane
    They are definitely worth it in photography. I use one on my Canon 650D and i love it :)

    Btw i think it works because circular polarizing filters require longer exposure times for light. By not letting extra lighy trough and increasing contrast, it could i guess tackle the god rays?
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,718 Valuable Player
    edited May 2016
    I'll pick up a circ filter today and confirm my findings later... don't get excited though!
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  • Percy1983Percy1983 Posts: 1,410
    Wintermute
    Aren't cinema/polarised 3D tv glasses circular polarised?
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  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,738 Volunteer Moderator
    From Quora .. IMAX uses linear ... RealD and others use circular:

    Benefits of Linear Polarization
    1) Linear polarization glasses are cheaper to produce and purchase than circular polarization glasses. I assume this is a big driving factor in the decision.

    2) The process of linear polarization allows for lower light-loss than the process of circular polarization. Simply put, all things being equal with bulb brightness, screen, and throw distance, IMAX 3D is brighter than circular-polarization 3D systems. The brightness of image for a 3D film is a common complaint and almost all 3D system suffer from significant light loss compared to 2D projection. I think this is an important factor for IMAX, as they aim for premium audiovisual presentation. (Another drawback with Real-D is that they use a single projector for 3D, which results in compounding the light-loss problem.)

    3) I haven't seen convincing hard facts to support this, but a lot of people say that a properly calibrated linear-polarization system will have less "cross talk" than a properly calibrated circular-polarization system. That means that if your head is straight with your eyes in a horizontal line, there will be less leaking of right-eye image into left-eye through the polarization. In other words, for normal usage the linear-polarized 3D should separate the left-eye and right-eye images better than circular-polarization would.

    Benefits of Circular Polarization
    1) If you tilt your head at all, linear-polarization cross-talk will drastically increase. You'll start to see combined images in each eye, ruining the 3D effect and potentially giving you a headache. The same problem occurs with circular-polarization, but at a much lesser degree. Supporters of linear-polarization believe that most people will immediately get that something is wrong when they tilt their head, and will adjust back to an optimal viewing position. However, this makes a big assumption about how viewers will react to a suboptimal image and also places restrictions on the viewer that might lead to physical discomfort while watching a long film.

    2) This isn't necessarily a benefit of circular polarization, but the Real-D 3D system uses a single projector and the IMAX 3D system uses dual projectors. A big problem with using dual projectors is that if dust, hair, or dirt gets in a projector it will show up only in one eye's image, and that by using two projectors you are effectively doubling the likelihood of visible particles showing up. I can say that anecdotally I have noticed this every single time I've seen a film on IMAX 3D, but I've never had it bother me at a Real-D 3D presentation.
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  • FingerMcPokeyeFingerMcPokeye Posts: 240
    Nexus 6
    My guess on this...

  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,718 Valuable Player
    edited May 2016

    @FingerMcPokeye, nice diagram! that's my thinking exactly, so the Fesnel grooves, being circular, will produce radially polorized light, radial about centre of the Fresnel circle.

    Now the thing is... the problem light rays are generated within the Fresnel lens... so... how is the light from these rays polorized? and are they're polorizes? and how would a filter, linear or circular differentiate between the incoming light and the internally generated light?

    In any case, I still maintain that the only light that either filter would block is the uniformly polorised light because that's what both types of filter do... and I can't see that either type of light being emited is linear and there isn't a filter that blocks circular polorized light.

    The circular polorizer emits circular light, it doesn't block it.

    Anyway... I now have a circ filter so I'll try oit for myself (it would probably have been quicket to try it than type this!

    @LZoltowski, I'm going to need a while to digest that!

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  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,738 Volunteer Moderator
    I have 30 pairs of realD glasses and about 15 pairs of Imax glasses lol I wonder if those would work as well
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  • checkmitchcheckmitch Posts: 15
    edited May 2016
    Would also be nice to have an amber tented lens option for less eye strain,  what has been everyone's experience using Gunnar eyeware and the like when using the Rift?  Is there a frame from Gunnars that has an ideal for VR use?
  • FingerMcPokeyeFingerMcPokeye Posts: 240
    Nexus 6
    edited May 2016
    Light that gets refracted passing through glass does not get polarized.

    Light that gets reflected off of a surface gets polarized. 

    Wear polarized sunglasses and look at a car window from a low angle.  Tilt your head back and forth for effect.  You'll see light coming from inside the window fine.  Reflections on the window will fade depending on head tilt.

    With the freznel, anything hitting the glass at a near perpendicular angle will enter and get refracted.  Anything hitting near parallel will get reflected (and polarized).  The lens is designed so most light gets refracted, but the tiny slivers of vertical surface on the Fresnel will have light hit at near parallel angles.

    Edit... adding..

    So reflected polarized light is directional.  Non polarized refracted light has waves in all directions. 

    If you put a polarizing lens between the Fresnel and the eye, the refracted light gets some small percentage of light blocked that happens to be randomly perpendicular to the lens polarization. 

    But... the light that's reflected and polarized coming from the Fresnel will be fully blocked if the polarized lens is at a 90 rotation.

  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,738 Volunteer Moderator
    Would also be nice to have an amber tented lens option for less eye strain,  what has been everyone's experience using Gunnar eyeware and the like when using the Rift?  Is there a frame from Gunnars that has an ideal for VR use?
    I wear glasses and all of them have a special coating that reduces blue light coming into the eye to help with eye strain. It helps.
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