Circular Polarized Lenses - God Rays no longer. - Page 2 — Oculus
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Circular Polarized Lenses - God Rays no longer.

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  • FingerMcPokeyeFingerMcPokeye Posts: 240
    Nexus 6
    BTW my diagram is wrong.  The yellow beams that get reflected will in turn get refracted a moment later when they too pass through the glass.  They'll retain their polarization though.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,928 Volunteer Moderator

    I go along with that.

    The unwanted light rays are rays that are both reflected and refracted... they're reflected off the surface of the groove and onto the next groove where they're either reflected again of refracted, and so on. So if anything they'll be radially polorised about the lens centre by the time they pass though the lens to the eye, as per the light from the source which is reflected.

    Again, a filter won't filter these out... or if it does, it'll only be the ones that are perpendicular to the filter axis, leaving the rest to be unaffected

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  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,756 Volunteer Moderator
    edited May 2016
    By Jobe I solved it ... all you need is a pair of rose tinted glasses ... might not fix your flares, but now they will be FABULOUS pink Elton John style


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  • FingerMcPokeyeFingerMcPokeye Posts: 240
    Nexus 6
    They'll be linearly polarized but the important bit is they are polarized.

    Because they're linearly polarized but in a circular pattern (not the same as circular polarization), if you use a linear polarizer in front of them it will only help with god rays in sort of a "bowtie" pattern.

    But... if you put a circular polarizer in front of them it should block nearly all of the linearly polarized light.

    Here's a cool example.  Light hitting the water is linearly polarized but the sky is unpolarized.  It's passing through a circular polarization filter..



  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,928 Volunteer Moderator
    That's what I mean by circular and linear polarising filters both doing the same thing in what the block... The circ filter just adds a layer that circulates the filtered light. So I'm back to my initial observation that me linear filter didn't appear to make a difference to the light rays. It's possible there was a bow tie improvement but if so, it was a very narrow bow tie! 
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  • SyrellarisSyrellaris Posts: 1,035
    3Jane
    Well Unknown user has said several times his God rays were bad on his unit, compared to other Rift owners. perhaps that have something to do with the fact that you don't see much difference, but he does?
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,928 Volunteer Moderator
    edited May 2016
    I'll try and take photos of my unit, the difference that a filter makes should be the same in terms of percentage improvement, I think this goes back to what @LZoltowski said and the improvement was down to the overall dimming effect of the filter, rather than the filter itself
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  • Mace404Mace404 Posts: 208
    Nexus 6
    Indeed, brightness/dimming does allot. When watching a movie trough the Rift with white subtitles the rays are very noticeable on the text. Just switching color of the subs to light grey makes the rays disappear.
    (from FFFFFF to EEEEEE / 7,5% is more than enough already to not see them anymore.)

    I think when they give us brightness and/or gamma control for the screens allot will be pleased already.

  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,756 Volunteer Moderator
    I think a 7.5% drop in brightness isnt that bad, your eyes adjust to relative brightness anyway pretty quickly and you tend to forget about it. 
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  • RobHermansRobHermans Posts: 712
    3Jane
    edited May 2016
    Well Unknown user has said several times his God rays were bad on his unit, compared to other Rift owners. perhaps that have something to do with the fact that you don't see much difference, but he does?
    To be fair, @oOunknownuserOo was comparing his current unit's defects with his first one, having had it replaced. If he was close to another Rift user, he could make that comparison, but IIRC he's in Alberta and there are no users near him. :(

    This discussion regarding brightness/godrays is very interesting. Is there not a tool which one can use? I know the display doesn't show up as a monitor in NVidia control panel, but there must be some way to set the brightness, no?
  • agenttoffagenttoff Posts: 325
    Trinity
    I just tested a pair of Gunnars.  They did absolutely nothing for godrays, if anything they just made everything blurrier.  I wonder if there are any filters we could place on the screens themselves that would help, or behind the lenses. 
  • oOunknownuserOooOunknownuserOo Posts: 331
    Nexus 6
    Would also be nice to have an amber tented lens option for less eye strain,  what has been everyone's experience using Gunnar eyeware and the like when using the Rift?  Is there a frame from Gunnars that has an ideal for VR use?
    I wear glasses and all of them have a special coating that reduces blue light coming into the eye to help with eye strain. It helps.

    I just came back from the Optometrist, he says I look great but don't see that well.

    Just kidding...  I purchased a few new sets of glasses today,  my current lenses were called anti fatigues which were real good for being around computers but I decided this time around to change to  CHC AR Blockers,  that block out the blue light.   So see how they will fair next week.

    Also picked up another set of polarized lenses.  Apparently the guy said you have to pay tax on em,  I told them I'll be using them as reading glasses.  :)  
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,928 Volunteer Moderator

    I'd love to know what Oculus R&D and HTC are working on for future HMD's, if have a feeling Fresnels are just a first generation thing

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  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,756 Volunteer Moderator
    @DaftnDirect me too! So many possibilities ... Curved Higher flexible density OLED's, maybe some sort of direct retinal projection ... an adaptation of LightField?

    The rift actually uses a hybrid Fresnel lens, I read somewhere that it is two pieces with different IR bonded together.
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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,928 Volunteer Moderator
    yeah I'm not sure where the fresnel sits, in the inner surface or at the interface between the two.. i assume the inner surface. Near-eye light feild sounds amazing... and your eye prescription can be just set within the runtime.. no glasses needed for anyone! don't know much about retinal projection but this stuff is exciting
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  • agenttoffagenttoff Posts: 325
    Trinity
    edited May 2016
     We all like to speculate that cutting edge tech will be used, but my instinct tells me it'll just be an adaptation of the same, especially considering how the majority reacted to the price.  I'd personally be willing to pay much more for better tech.  
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,928 Volunteer Moderator
    edited May 2016
    Light field could be cheap... I think it just has an overhead on computing needs, well maybe not 2nd generation HMDs but not too far off
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  • r00xr00x Posts: 389
    Nexus 6
    Interesting. I could believe this working with circular polarisation, yeah.

    I would expect our Rift's Fresnel lenses linearly polarise the light in a circle around the centre of the screen. 

    Actual "circularly-polarised" light, for want of a better description, "twists" either clockwise or anticlockwise. This is the type of polarisation they use at the cinema for 3D movies. The reason being that unlike linearly polarised light, the degree of filtration is not dependent on how well aligned your filter is to the light source. In other words, you could tilt your head to either side and it still looks like 3D on the screen (you're tilting the filters along the same axis through which the light source is polarised, so it has no effect).

    If you tried that with a system that used linear polarisation, the moment your head wasn't perfectly upright and aligned with the screen, you'd start to see the images blurring together, getting worse the more you tilt your head.

    I could believe viewing the light from the Rift lenses through such a filter would probably assist in reducing the strongly polarised god rays. I doubt it would remove them though. This would be trickier if the Rift used LCD displays instead of OLED as well, since the former produces strongly polarised light and tends to look rubbish when viewed behind other polarisers.

    As for mounting them, well... I've got a pair of those crappy 3D glasses they give out at cinemas, might give that a go when I get home tonight...
  • agenttoffagenttoff Posts: 325
    Trinity
    Wouldn't the filters need to be installed between the lens and screen for them to work?
  • Roming22Roming22 Posts: 141
    Art3mis
    agenttoff said:
    Wouldn't the filters need to be installed between the lens and screen for them to work?
    Nope. Between the lenses and eyes.

    It is the process of the light going through the fresnel lens that polarizes the light.
    The god rays are reflections on the tiny ridges of the lenses.
  • agenttoffagenttoff Posts: 325
    Trinity
    Roming22 said:
    agenttoff said:
    Wouldn't the filters need to be installed between the lens and screen for them to work?
    Nope. Between the lenses and eyes.

    It is the process of the light going through the fresnel lens that polarizes the light.
    The god rays are reflections on the tiny ridges of the lenses.
    Yeah, that absolutely makes sense... that makes things easier at least.  It shouldn't be too difficult to 3D print a lens holder. 
  • agenttoffagenttoff Posts: 325
    Trinity
    Roming22 said:
    agenttoff said:
    Wouldn't the filters need to be installed between the lens and screen for them to work?
    Nope. Between the lenses and eyes.

    It is the process of the light going through the fresnel lens that polarizes the light.
    The god rays are reflections on the tiny ridges of the lenses.
    Yeah, that absolutely makes sense... that makes things easier at least.  It shouldn't be too difficult to 3D print a lens holder. 
  • FingerMcPokeyeFingerMcPokeye Posts: 240
    Nexus 6
    So are we firmed up on this yet?  Circular polarizer do the trick?

    My rift is due in a couple weeks and I'm pretty sure I have a Circular polarizer in my camera bag so I can give it a try then.

    If this works it's going to be a big fat /facepalm for HTC and Oculus.  Such a simple solution.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,928 Volunteer Moderator
    edited May 2016

    I'm definitely not firmed up on this!

    I bought the circ filter today (Hoya 58S PL-CIR) to see if it makes any difference over the linear filter I already tested (and which had no impact on the rays), but haven't tried the circ yet.. it's been a busy day and I still have my glasses mod installed within the Rift so it's a bit of hassle taking them out as they're just in the right position

    edit, ok I'm going to test now, I just need a coffee, will report within the hour

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  • oOunknownuserOooOunknownuserOo Posts: 331
    Nexus 6
    http://www.snakeriverprototyping.com/

    Is where I purchase all my drone filters.
  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,756 Volunteer Moderator
    @DaftnDirect  I am awaiting with bated breath.
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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,928 Volunteer Moderator

    OK tested cric filter.

    If anyone else is considering testing and wears glasses, it's easy to blue-tack the filter to your glasses then wear the Rift. I tested with Henry (the opening titles are quite high-contrast) and Apollo 11 (the opening titles are larger and high contrast). Tested with the filter axis at 0 and at 90 deg. Also switched off the room light to get maximum effect.

    First tested for both apps with filter at 0 deg. Initially I thought wow this is an improvement! Ran the test again to be sure and moved my head around a lot more... the rays are still there in all directions but dimmer. Ran the test at 90 deg and same thing.

    Now, I'm not 100% sure but I strongly believe the filter has just dimmed everything down so the rays are less noticeable. I don't have a non-polorised neutral density filter to compare, but this may be all that's needed if you find the rays too much.

    Personally, I'm not convinced I want a dimmer viewing experience but I may change my mind... it could be beneficial for mainly dark games like Elite Dangerous

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  • SyrellarisSyrellaris Posts: 1,035
    3Jane
    Well Unknown user has said several times his God rays were bad on his unit, compared to other Rift owners. perhaps that have something to do with the fact that you don't see much difference, but he does?
    To be fair, @oOunknownuserOo was comparing his current unit's defects with his first one, having had it replaced. If he was close to another Rift user, he could make that comparison, but IIRC he's in Alberta and there are no users near him. :(

    This discussion regarding brightness/godrays is very interesting. Is there not a tool which one can use? I know the display doesn't show up as a monitor in NVidia control panel, but there must be some way to set the brightness, no?
    I was trying to point out that oOUnknownUserOo sees so much effect compared to DaftnDirect with those circular polarized lenses, due to his unit being defective and having more god ray smudge then DaftnDirect's unit.


  • oOunknownuserOooOunknownuserOo Posts: 331
    Nexus 6
    Well Unknown user has said several times his God rays were bad on his unit, compared to other Rift owners. perhaps that have something to do with the fact that you don't see much difference, but he does?
    To be fair, @oOunknownuserOo was comparing his current unit's defects with his first one, having had it replaced. If he was close to another Rift user, he could make that comparison, but IIRC he's in Alberta and there are no users near him. :(

    This discussion regarding brightness/godrays is very interesting. Is there not a tool which one can use? I know the display doesn't show up as a monitor in NVidia control panel, but there must be some way to set the brightness, no?
    I was trying to point out that oOUnknownUserOo sees so much effect compared to DaftnDirect with those circular polarized lenses, due to his unit being defective and having more god ray smudge then DaftnDirect's unit.



    I seen a very noticeable difference right off the hop.   I was not able to watch a movie for more than a couple minutes.  Project cars was a huge light show for me,  and like I said it was my observation. not the end all be all, but now that you have a few different opinions it may work for some, and may not.
  • SyrellarisSyrellaris Posts: 1,035
    3Jane
    Well Unknown user has said several times his God rays were bad on his unit, compared to other Rift owners. perhaps that have something to do with the fact that you don't see much difference, but he does?
    To be fair, @oOunknownuserOo was comparing his current unit's defects with his first one, having had it replaced. If he was close to another Rift user, he could make that comparison, but IIRC he's in Alberta and there are no users near him. :(

    This discussion regarding brightness/godrays is very interesting. Is there not a tool which one can use? I know the display doesn't show up as a monitor in NVidia control panel, but there must be some way to set the brightness, no?
    I was trying to point out that oOUnknownUserOo sees so much effect compared to DaftnDirect with those circular polarized lenses, due to his unit being defective and having more god ray smudge then DaftnDirect's unit.



    I seen a very noticeable difference right off the hop.   I was not able to watch a movie for more than a couple minutes.  Project cars was a huge light show for me,  and like I said it was my observation. not the end all be all, but now that you have a few different opinions it may work for some, and may not.
    True, never hurts to try to see if it has an effect for you. Ill have to wait till July to see what mines like but, till then I keep reading horror stories like yours haha :)
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