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What is the radiation level of vr, is there potential long term health effects to using VR?

gluebaggluebag Posts: 81
anyone know or could point me at a document? Thanks

Best Answers

  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,421 Volunteer Moderator
    Accepted Answer
    If the screen worries you, you probably won't like the fact that the CV1 has a Bluetooth LE antenna next to your head too. :)
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Answers

  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,023 Valuable Player
    radiation levels? I haven't heard this one before. Link please!
  • gluebaggluebag Posts: 81
    @lovethis all displays give off radiation, am hoping it is very low with vr due to the size of the thing..
  • gluebaggluebag Posts: 81
    Hope so bud, think thats what i am asking though Do the lenses block it.. Ill give you the answered achievement though :smile:
  • gluebaggluebag Posts: 81
    @mradr thanks mate good quote...just dont fancy getting my brain over easy lol
  • gluebaggluebag Posts: 81
    Thanks Andy, excellent post. Prescription inserts will be worth their weight in gold as i have bad eyesight and contact lenses dry quickly on me
  • RoasterRoaster Posts: 1,053
    3Jane
    As expected, a Geiger tube detector shows no radiation above background with my CV1 turned on and screens lit.

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  • AndyW1384AndyW1384 Posts: 307
    Trinity
    Roaster said:
    As expected, a Geiger tube detector shows no radiation above background with my CV1 turned on and screens lit.

    That would be ionising radiation. Or perhaps X-Ray or gamma. Not the only kind of radiation there is ;).

    Not, as I've said, that I think the Rift poses any significant health risk. Frankly, if you're the sort of person to live in a city (particulate and other air pollution), eat fried, grilled, roast or toasted food (carcinogens) or drive a car (violent sudden death or crippling injury), then you're happy to accept much higher risks in your life - and in normal human terms even those risks aren't all that high.

    To be honest, I'd be happy to say that the biggest risk with using a Rift is long periods of sitting in a chair. Roll on Touch :D!
  • rankinsectrankinsect Posts: 61
    Hiro Protagonist
    Well, the radiation emitted is overall quite high, because visible light is radiation.  You see things by absorbing radiation emitted by or reflected from objects in your environment, so every monitor or display has to emit radiation in order to form a visible image.

    Now, if you mean HARMFUL radiation, probably zero.  Any LED display essentially gives off only three frequencies of light (fairly narrow peaks of red, green, and blue, at around 610 nm, 550 nm, and 450 nm respectively).  Due to how LEDs work, they have a pretty narrow emission spectrum.  It's not like CRTs that used an electron beam to ionize phosphors, which could also produce other ionizing radiation.

    Of course even visible light is dangerous to your eyes in sufficiently high intensities - that's why you don't shine a laser pointer in someone's eyes.  That said, I don't think anyone has shown that this is actually harmful in the intensities typical of a display.  The thing with visible light is that it becomes irritatingly bright before it actually deals damage, so you're much more likely to feel uncomfortable and stop before you get actual retinal harm.  UV light is dangerous mainly because you can't detect it, so a very bright UV source can burn your retina without you feeling any discomfort or any reflex to close your eyes or narrow your pupils to reduce the light entering.

  • Greenfire32Greenfire32 Posts: 367
    Trinity
    I would say that the radiation levels the Rift gives off are no more harmful than the ones your phone gives off. Blue light, however, is something you might want to be worried about. (Yeah I know, blue light is a kind of radiation, but I think the OP meant the standard kind of radiation that all electronics give off)

    Regular screens give off blue light too, but it's usually not an issue because of the distance of the screens to your eye. The blue light usually has enough time to bounce around and spread thin by the time it gets to you. Inside the Rift, though, the screens are less than an inch from your eye and so blue light becomes a much more *serious matter as the light will bounce around inside your eye instead of dissipating like it normally would. Not only is it harmful on your eyes, but your circadian rhythm (the thing that controls when you get tired and sleep) uses the level of blue light to determine it's schedule. If you bombard yourself with harmful blue light, you might find it hard to go to sleep or stay asleep.

    It's the same reason why those new street lights are causing all sorts of problems. Our ancestors evolved around the fire ring and we evolved to get tired when it's dark out during the lack of blue light and stay awake when there's an abundance of blue light (blue sky) during the day. It's also the same reason why a lot of people find it difficult to sleep in rooms that have lots of blue LED displays ( CD players, on-indicators, etc).

    Even if you don't need glasses, I would consider getting non-prescription lenses with a blue light filter from places like VR Lens Lab to reduce the effects.

    *It's not like the Rift is going to fry your eyes, but after years and years of continued Rift use, you might start experiencing eye problems due to the harmful blue light.
  • rankinsectrankinsect Posts: 61
    Hiro Protagonist
    I would say that the radiation levels the Rift gives off are no more harmful than the ones your phone gives off. Blue light, however, is something you might want to be worried about. (Yeah I know, blue light is a kind of radiation, but I think the OP meant the standard kind of radiation that all electronics give off)

    Regular screens give off blue light too, but it's usually not an issue because of the distance of the screens to your eye. The blue light usually has enough time to bounce around and spread thin by the time it gets to you. Inside the Rift, though, the screens are less than an inch from your eye and so blue light becomes a much more *serious matter as the light will bounce around inside your eye instead of dissipating like it normally would. Not only is it harmful on your eyes, but your circadian rhythm (the thing that controls when you get tired and sleep) uses the level of blue light to determine it's schedule. If you bombard yourself with harmful blue light, you might find it hard to go to sleep or stay asleep.

    It's the same reason why those new street lights are causing all sorts of problems. Our ancestors evolved around the fire ring and we evolved to get tired when it's dark out during the lack of blue light and stay awake when there's an abundance of blue light (blue sky) during the day. It's also the same reason why a lot of people find it difficult to sleep in rooms that have lots of blue LED displays ( CD players, on-indicators, etc).

    Even if you don't need glasses, I would consider getting non-prescription lenses with a blue light filter from places like VR Lens Lab to reduce the effects.

    *It's not like the Rift is going to fry your eyes, but after years and years of continued Rift use, you might start experiencing eye problems due to the harmful blue light.

    While it's true that LED displays have a stronger blue spectrum compared to incandescent light which was very reddish, if you compare an LED display to sunlight at the Earth's surface, the primary source of light for our planet for most of our species' history, sunlight is the more blue of the two, and the more overall intense as well by orders of magnitude.  Your eyes can't tell the difference between a 450 nm photon from the sun versus a 450 nm photon from a display, and as any photographer could tell you, an object under direct solar illumination is far, far brighter than a photo of that object on any display.  If we can go out and enjoy the outdoors on a sunny day, we can certainly tolerate a far less intense display.

    Circadian rhythm disruptions are a real thing, but they are from just the fact that we illuminate our homes during hours where it would otherwise be dark out, so we shorten the amount of time we spend in the dark.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,163 Valuable Player
    The first studies into proximity and duration usage of head-mounted displays started in 1989. At the time funded by air-force and space corporations and governmental and military. The first studies regarding commercial and consumer application were funded around 1994 - including studies funded by Walt Disney and SGi.

    The findings from these early evaluations were using hardware that was compromised compared to the 2000 slew of systems. Sony in Japan linked to the HMZ platform and Glasstron invested in Japanese research projects, and also in the US a number of colleges started (then ceased) health based projects - much of their investment was transferred after the failure of the Oculus R&D investment. 

    Currently there are a number of UK, US and Japanese reports that are used regarding the medium and long term health issues. These medical reports call upon 10 to 20 years of exposure and are used are the ground work in many research and development projects. When working on new hardware we like to call from the findings of at least two of these.

    This is the basic answer to the OP - but if specific papers and research report names are needed best to PM me.

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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,503 Valuable Player
    Mradr said:
    A health document wont be around for a while. This is something that is created over time and not normally release on new products because of "unknowns." 

    Older CRT type televisions and monitors used to emit very low energy X-Rays, which are distantly related to Gamma radiation, but it only happened when they were switched on. Since the 1960s emissions of this type have been very strictly regulated but as far as I am aware it was never shown to be harmful. There are no measurable X-Ray emissions from plasma, LCD or OLED flat screen TVs, though like most electronic devices they do produce a wide spectrum of electromagnetic radiation. There’s an on-going debate over the health consequences of this type of non-ionising radiation, particularly with regards to mobile phones, but the general consensus is that TVs, at least as far as electromagnetic radiation is concerned, are harmless.

    I would go as far as saying it's safer than your Phone just because it doesn't have the wireless bands that cell phones towers require and that is the most radiation part of the device.

    Yes, the lenses would protect you a small amount, but at the end of the day - it'll be already in safe levels. The device also controls how much light is shown making it a control environment allowing your eyes to slowly adjust to the amount of light it receives as well. This blocks UV from coming into the device and causing the most damage to your eyes.

    The only effect I know that might turn heads is the fact is it a stereo device. That be something you would want to keep away from your kids till around ages of 10-15+ as the eye is still changing. Another effect is the flicking of the light might cause eye strain. That's one reason to take breaks ever so often. Even thought the FPS is high enough we can't really "see" the different - our eyes and brain still can. 

    The only thing that will change ages 10-15 will be their IPD measurement. The eyesight part of a kid's eyes stop developing at around the age of 6 years old. That's why Lazy Eye is so difficult to treat from that age onward.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,503 Valuable Player
    Didn't realise that this was a necro job! 😂
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

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  • CalibosCalibos Posts: 113
    Art3mis
    snowdog said:
    Didn't realise that this was a necro job! 😂
    ...and where the Necromancer had the audacity to change the subject! LOL
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,320 Valuable Player
    kojack said:
    If the screen worries you, you probably won't like the fact that the CV1 has a Bluetooth LE antenna next to your head too. :)

    If there were some real problems, I'm sure more than a few boardies in here would have died or mutated by now  B)

    I still don't get big and green when angry, might need to increase my daily exposure even more!  :s  :D  

    I did notice something strange with my eyes though, could this be caused by the dual-element lenses inside the Index?  :#

    Image result for eye mutation

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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • BeastyBaiterBeastyBaiter Posts: 810
    3Jane
    As a leading scientist among the lizard people, I am obligated to inform you that non-ionizing radiation is the most dangerous type of radiation. It has been linked to the generation of Cholecaliferol (Vitamin D3) in mammals, stress relief and overall better health in humans. Given our plans of world domination and complete subjugation of humans, such radiation emitting devices are not recommended for use by humans.

    On the other hand, usage of ionizing radiation sources is strongly encouraged as they are known to cause cancer over the long term and radiation poisoning in the short. It is recommended that humans supplement their diet with plenty of Radium.
  • RosherauRosherau Posts: 7
    NerveGear
    I am emf sensitive, not overly but in a moderate amount, so i own a good rf meter.

    I tested the rift s out and it had 3 areas where the fr signal was as strong as a mobile phone using 4g in full service in a phone call, maybe higher. So it is on par with 3 mobile phones strapped to your head.
    this unfortunately caused headaches for weeks for my self.

    I am still trying to get a dev from index or vive to make a software switch so when controllers get tracked by the base station the wifi BT gets switched off on the headset. It is possible, just needs someone who can program under a dev setting in open source software. If that happens i will switch and buy one of theirs.

    I can make a youtube video of my meter testing though, it is quite impressive to see how intense it is compared to a mobile phone!!!
  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,421 Volunteer Moderator
    Rosherau said:
    I am still trying to get a dev from index or vive to make a software switch so when controllers get tracked by the base station the wifi BT gets switched off on the headset. It is possible, just needs someone who can program under a dev setting in open source software. If that happens i will switch and buy one of theirs.
    That's not how the Index/Vive works.
    "so when controllers get tracked by the base station"
    Base stations don't do tracking. They are a simple light beacon, they have zero understanding of controllers.
    SteamVR tracking is done purely within the controller itself, then sent wirelessly to the headset. Without the headset to controller wireless link being active, the controller effectively doesn't exist. (No tracking and no buttons/touchpad).

    For the Rift-S, the controllers are tracked by the headset's cameras. But if the Rift-S wireless link switched off, there would be no controller input (buttons, thumbsticks, triggers). That's assuming the controllers don't power down first due to no connection.


  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 815
    Trinity
    Hmm, idk if this is relevant or a solution but here u go. i have a large tv, a 49" samsung qled tv, and its right next to where i fold clothes after laundry. i put my back to the tv as i fold clothes i stand next to the tv, about a foot away. after 5 minutes or 10 minutes i feel my skin on my back get tingly and itchy. it goes away when i move away from the tv. the tv fries my skin i think, on my back around my ribs through my clothes, my t shirt.

    so to test if your vr headset is sending too much radiation, tape something over the sensor to keep it on, and face the screen towards the skin on your back around the ribs and let it sit there 10 minutes or so, if it hurts the skin then there's too much radiation from the vr unit.

    also to keep headaches away you need lights on between you and the screen and keep the distance of the screen far enough away you stop the headaches. if you have a extra large tv and no lights and watch in a dark room you might get terrible headaches during the deed and it pops your eyeballs in the back of the eyes and gives you a ripping migraine like headache for hours after the deed. you fix this by having lights on while you watch the tv and sitting a good distance away from the tv.


  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,277 Valuable Player
    I think I'm growing an extra head.
  • StrongitStrongit Posts: 62
    Hiro Protagonist
    I can't really speak for light radiation but I did do a course in radio communications in college.  It included cell phone, WiFi and some Bluetooth communications.  Now you may take this information with a grain of salt since I graduated college in 2004 and some of it is speculation based on that information.  I'm also in Canada so regulations here are likely different than other countries.

    Wireless communications have come a long way and are far more efficient than they used to be reducing the risk of harmful side effects. Even in the early 2000's they posed no short term harm unless you were within 10 feet of a cellular transmission dish mounted on a tower.  This means you would have to climb the tower and take a nap next to an antenna before anything bad would happen.  Not sure about long term, the jury's still out on that.

    The power transmitted through RF communications is relatively small coming from consumer devices like cell phones, modems and laptops.  They are thoroughly regulated to minimize interference and negative effects on living tissue.  Some people are more susceptible to RF radiation than others so in certain scenarios like using the quest with wireless antennas right next to your head for an hour or two at a time may cause headaches in a very small section of the population.  That combined with having displays as close as they are to your eyes and the disconnect between your eyes and inner ears for balance are why breaks are recommended.

    I'll go with the worst case scenario for RF transmission which would be the oculus quest.  It uses wireless AC at either 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz and Bluetooth to communicate with the controllers.  2.4Ghz WiFi transmits at about 0.1 watts and 5Ghz will use between 0.2 and 4 watts depending on the channel and strength of the signal.  (https://w.wol.ph/2015/08/28/maximum-wifi-transmission-power-country/).  Bluetooth is designed to be power efficient and so only uses between 0.1 watts and 0.0005 watts in the latest revisions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth).  So based on this the worst case would be just under 4 watts of RF radiation.

    According to government studies the safe limit for power output by wireless devices is 1.6 watts per kg (https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-technology/electromagnetic-compatibility-division/radio-frequency-safety/faq/rf-safety#Q9).  The average human head is between 4.5 to 5 kg so the maximum safe power output would be between 7.2 and 8 watts, nearly double the maximum power output of the quest.

    You also have to take into account antenna orientation and shielding.  A vertical straight antenna broadcasts in a donut shape horizontally outward and can be attenuated by walls and metal plating.  Based on the teardown here: https://medium.com/badvr/oculus-quest-headset-disassembly-2f404b004a3c the two antennas are shown under the "accessing the mainboard" section in the first picture.  They are the two red circuit boards on either side.  Based on shape and orientation they transmit in all horizontal directions but note that they are mounted on the outside of the motherboard facing forward.  This means that the signal going back towards the user is attenuated at least partly by both the motherboard and the metal plating behind the displays further reducing the signal absorbed by the user.

    TL:DR, Using the quest should pose little to no risk in terms of RF radiation.  If you want to be overly cautious stick to using a 2.4Ghz wifi signal.
  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 815
    Trinity
    edited March 14


    when you see Strongit post you see that 5g is the same as 2.4g, different strengths between them.

    then you see this video of what 5g did to the tree. 

    now to me seeing what happened to the tree is the same stuff in 2.4g i know its in the vr headset too. so to some extend however small its weakening your eyeballs and brain the same as the 5g did to that tree. 

    i do know my tv hurt me at a straight on looking direction at too close of a distance when i first got it. now i look at it from an angle off to the side and its ok now sitting a bit closer to it.

    also people have had sickness from vr and continue to have vr sickness. nobody knows why vr sickness happens people say its the Vestibular ear system. maybe its the radiation like what happened to the tree?

    if you take your index finger and rub your outside of the index finger by the knuckle and hold it tight against your two eyeballs, pressing right on the tear ducts, and roll your head around for a minute or two, you get the same sensation as you get from vr sickness, thats a sign the weakening done to the tree by the radiation is pressing on the eyes and causing vr sickness.

    i wrote about how to fix this before. have the panels the screens off to the side of the head, and using mirrors reflect the screens onto the eyes. using rf shielding on top of this to shield the person from rf would help too.
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,277 Valuable Player
    Now I'm growing antennas 
  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 815
    Trinity
    edited March 14
    a lot of people feel the radiation effect;



    i dont have a index and want 1 but i read they had a conference a few days ago on vr sickness and people got sick watching it using the index. i think it was the index, can't find the link, grr.

    i wonder if the people who have no vr sickness use a special covering on their face plate that might serve as some sort of protection from rf vr sickness?

    if so if they removed said vr face plate cover and used the generic face plate if they would start to feel vr sickness?

    hm, i wonder now if vr rf is making people get vr sickness or be bad 4 u, now idk. hmm grr.

    edit.

    in fact because i can now sit closer to my big tv in a dark room if i sit off to the side i wonder if vr sickness is from having the screens face flush against the eyeballs, and if they were flipped to shine to the same direction the eyes look at and were visible using mirrors if regular 2d motion in fps games would then be ok to the person with no vr sickness?


  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,421 Volunteer Moderator
    If that light post was really some how peeling off bark from one side of a tree and killing leaves on only one side (even though the leaves on the other still have line of sight with no obstruction), then why isn't the hedge or the surrounding grass affected, despite being closer than the tree?

    Trees are pretty well understood at this point (dendrology as a science has been around for at least 2100 years) and this is a known problem.
    Sunscald, temperature changes (very cold nights then sun on one side the next day) and infections like phytophthora root rot or verticillium wilt can all affect just one side of a tree. When the bark is affected, the vascular system of the tree on that side can be impaired and the branches and leaves on that side will die due to lack of water and nutrients.

    and roll your head around for a minute or two, you get the same sensation as you get from vr sickness
    Rolling your head around for 2 min then feeling a bit sick?


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