Going from dk2 to cv1 was kind of disappointing — Oculus
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Going from dk2 to cv1 was kind of disappointing

birkbirk Posts: 95
Hiro Protagonist
edited July 2016 in General
I went from the dk1 to dk2, and now cv1. The positive I can say is the cv1 has a bit better screen, but you can still easily see the pixels when the screen is bright. From the comments here and other places I thought they would do a better job at blurring and hiding them, but  it wasn't very much different. The other good thing is 360 degree tracking. It felt like it has a bit better range than the dk2 and the FOV of the new camera is a lot better, Its very nice to be able to turn all around and still have tracking. Black smear is gone, but there is some red tint in some games.  The headphones is a big plus.The comfort is ok, its lighter but the foam thing, that rests on your face is a lot harder and thinner than dk2. I couldn't find a really good way, even though i turned the angle of the hmd and tried everything with the straps, it still didn't feel that much more comfortable than my old dk2 but a little. Its a lot easier to take on and off so thats really nice.
The most negative thing is the lenses.
They are horrible compared to dk2. Everywhere there is a bit of contrast I see god rays all around. I am lucky and have a IPD at 64 so both dk1 and dk2 fit me perfect, the lenses there didn't blur more than maybe 10% out on the edge of the lenses. cv1 is just a blurry laser show all a round edges. so for me the visuals of the lenses is a downgrade. I tried to push the dk2 around so my vision wasn't in the perfect centre, and it got blurry fast on the edges, so I can see why people didn't like the old lenses if they didn't have a IPD in the average zone, but for me its just a lot worse. But I can't see why they couldn't keep the old lenses cause they implemented the lens adjustment so that wouldn't matter for most people anymore.
The FOV is a bit wider and a bit smaller on the vertical scale, but the thing I didn't like is that I can see the plastic insides and its a bit annoying, you always feel like there is something in your vision, that never was an issue with dk1/dk2 for me.
My recommendation if you have a dk2 and you are happy with it, you can wait to see if you get it cheaper as a package deal with touch, cause I don't really think cv1 is that much of an upgrade, at least without touch. its a new product and it has plenty of faults but Its a lot better than playing on a monitor:)

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Comments

  • Arock387Arock387 Posts: 727
    Trinity
    I respectfully disagree.  I find the CV1 loads better than the Dk2.  Much better screen.  More clear and brighter.  screen door is still there but vastly improved and doesn't bother me at all.  I have found its comfy even with glasses on (mostly put contacts in though for the extra comfort.)


  • dc2889dc2889 Posts: 63
    Hiro Protagonist
    i agree.  :'( i'm disappointed its not that much better than the dk2. the god rays make me think my lens are dirty. lol but CV2 hopefully will be better.
  • nAV2016nAV2016 Posts: 516
    Trinity
    edited July 2016
    I think CV2 should be good but i think CV1 just falls short on my expectations. I guess u have to remember the CV1 is meant to be leading technology and the main issue is clarity which i guess is a limitation in advanced GPU. i think even the dk2 requires quite a beefy computer
  • birkbirk Posts: 95
    Hiro Protagonist
    thats true! will probably get used to the god rays after a little while, just a little annoying they chose those lenses cause the cv1 would be so much better with the old ones in my opinion. but people seems to post very different experiences with them, some hardly see them even in loading screens, others say they look like headlights flashing them in the eyes, washing out everything. I see them pretty easily, but never in the middle of the screen which is good:) Maybe its true what someone said that it effects people with blue eyes more? even though that sounds a bit weird to me
  • Mr.CreepyMr.Creepy Posts: 792
    Neo
    I get the complaints, but i am pretty sure the new lenses was a good move, except that sadly the new drawbacks bother a good portion of the people who are used to DK2, and also some who never tried the DKs. As far as i know though, the tracking sensor has quite a bit more FOV, and range than the DK2s camera, so saying it may be a little bit better without testing it isn't right. The image is also widely reported to be quite improved by many DK2 users, but there is also a few like you than somehow don't feel the same way. A shame that everyone isn't pleased, but i guess we are all looking forward to those issues being resolved in the future.
  • kevinlowe0kevinlowe0 Posts: 10
    NerveGear
    I'd love a CV1 with the old DK2 lenses.  My main VR game is Elite, so the flares are near-constant due to the high contrast, and the lack of lens swap means I'm not using my Rift until my VR Lens Lab adapters arrive.
  • birkbirk Posts: 95
    Hiro Protagonist
    I don't feel the range of the camera felt a lot longer but the FOV on the camera is extremely good! I just need to get used to not having to back up to still have tracking while walking away from the camera;) Yeah the resolution is good for what it is, but was hoping they would hide the screen door a little more. Im sure me and many others will get used to the god rays after a little while, like with black smear on dk2, you notice it very easily at first but after a while you don't care that much about it:)
  • ChoronzonChoronzon Posts: 341
    Nexus 6
    edited July 2016
    Sensible post @birk

    I'm constantly irritated by all those CV1 'Screendoor? you don't notice it!' comments. Sure, I don't notice SDE when I'm whizzing about in DK2. But in more sedate games - and especially watching vids - the current resolution of CV1 is, I feel, unsatisfactory. And the infamous godrays, well...

    I'll get Fove in the new year, then the second consumer version of the RIft.
  • birkbirk Posts: 95
    Hiro Protagonist
    I'd love a CV1 with the old DK2 lenses.  My main VR game is Elite, so the flares are near-constant due to the high contrast, and the lack of lens swap means I'm not using my Rift until my VR Lens Lab adapters arrive.
    Yeah thats the game I play the most too. Haven't tried to lower the brightness of the hud yet, that might help a bit against the rays it produces.
  • birkbirk Posts: 95
    Hiro Protagonist
    Sensible post @birk

    I'm constantly irritated by all those CV1 'Screendoor? you don't notice it!' comments. Sure, I don't notice SDE when I'm whizzing about in DK2. But in more sedate games - and especially watching vids - the current resolution of CV1 is, I feel, unsatisfactory. And the infamous godrays, well...

    I'll get Fove in the new year, then the second consumer version of the RIft.
     I guess its different for people, some might have trouble focusing 100% through the lenses blurring the picture a tiny bit, might be a reason, not sure. But like you said its not a big problem when gaming:) With Fove I like the idea of the character moving his/hers eyes the same as you do in real life. It would add a lot of life to the characters in multiplayer games 
  • my3dscenemy3dscene Posts: 148
    dk1 to dk2 = 300% quality improvement and same price ($350) Note Facebook wasn't involved here.
    dk2 to CV1 = 40% quality improvement  and almost double price. (great job Facebook!)
  • xi11ixxi11ix Posts: 263
    Nexus 6
    @my3dscene

    I don't think you have enough info to blame Facebook for the price increase.
  • Mr.CreepyMr.Creepy Posts: 792
    Neo
    my3dscene said:
    dk1 to dk2 = 300% quality improvement and same price ($350) Note Facebook wasn't involved here.
    dk2 to CV1 = 40% quality improvement  and almost double price. (great job Facebook!)
    How much of those 40 percent does the headphones cover? What about 90 frames per second, how many percent is that? The improved tracking sensor?

    I'd really like to know how you reached the conclusion that the CV1 is excactly 40% better.
  • AntDX3162AntDX3162 Posts: 839
    Trinity
    Arock387 said:
    I respectfully disagree.  I find the CV1 loads better than the Dk2.  Much better screen.  More clear and brighter.  screen door is still there but vastly improved and doesn't bother me at all.  I have found its comfy even with glasses on (mostly put contacts in though for the extra comfort.)


    I'm not sure about clear and brighter.  It feels like there is oil on the screen that was smeared and will never come off.
    facebook.com/AntDX316
  • sabyyysabyyy Posts: 33
    Brain Burst
    Maybe I shouldn't be whining that my order will be cancelled? I have a DK2
  • grimdargrimdar Posts: 120
    Art3mis
    I posted a thread like this on reddit and it got thoroughly trashed and downvoted. I don't really care if I'm in some sort of minority, but I agree that DK2 to CV1 was a disappointment. Once the excitement over the better pixel density was over, the god rays arrived to ruin the party. You literally can't even watch a show/movie in the dark theatre anymore in the Video app. The dark scenes and theatres are amazing on the DK2, minus the SDE which was crappy.
    In some ways I wish I never experienced the DK1 and DK2, I think it would've made the CV1 experience better. I think a lot of the folks trashing topics like this never put on a DK2 before. Just IMO.
  • MacDokieMacDokie Posts: 1
    NerveGear
    I totally agree. I also own a DK2 with comfort kit and however the SDE is far worse, the total the experience with the DK2 feels better. The CV1 looks like it's been smothered with grease or something. Elite Dangerous is almost unplayable due to the constant irritating god rays and in every scene were there is contrast difference, the flares appear. The immersion is therefore way less, because you're constantly aware that you are looking at a screen.

    I just received my Rift (yesterday) and I want to return it. This is totally unacceptable. I've issued a return request, since I'm in the EU, should be no issue to return it within 14 days after receiving this thing. Total disappointment and major deception.
  • GigantoadGigantoad Posts: 395
    Nexus 6
    Does the DK2 still work these days?
  • ChoronzonChoronzon Posts: 341
    Nexus 6
    edited July 2016

     We'd all like 4K+ HMDs, but none of us have the hardware to run such panels at 90FPS. So either wait ~5 years for better hardware or enjoy what we have today. Simple. :smile:
    I think we'd all be satisfied with 1440p until 4k+. In high-end HMDs 1440p (noticeable SDE but not ruinously* so) is just around the corner.

    @grimdar Agree. Apart from screendoor watching video in the DK2 is fantastic with 'void' option, once you have that experience then nothing else will do. Even 'personal theatres' like Glyph and iWear, can't match the tremendous depth, contrast, rich colours, and inky blacks of DK2.

    *ruinous for video.
  • PassiveVRPassiveVR Posts: 153
    Art3mis
    edited July 2016
    " I think a lot of the folks trashing topics like this never put on a DK2 before"

    I agree.

    " the total the experience with the DK2 feels better. "

    I agree.

    I was extremely disappointed, to the point I've actually turned my back on VR until generation 2 and HOPE they come to their senses (HTC *and* Oculus and whoever else is making HMDS).

    I agree with the OP, CV1 is a MASSIVE step back, I don't care that res is better, that comfort is a (bit) better, or frame rate is higher etc, I mean sure we want those but they are still not good enough yet anyway (at least Res and FOV are still far too low). So for those small improvements, the sacrifices that were made, in both Vive and Rift are ridiculous.

    I feel that those of us who owned and used DK2s a lot, and appreciated them flaws and all, would say they had a certain solid feel to the graphics. Even at lower res. It's was like a direct connection between the user and the scene, I felt so much greatness pending when I wore a DK2, my mind raced with posibilities of how cool VR is and what will come next.

    Now, Vive imo is currently the BETTER solution (with input and good tracking) over rift, but rift has its upsides (bit more comfort for sure and touch better SDE), neither are good enough. It's that simple. In fact they both risk harming VR in the long run. I'm starting to wish they had just held off on "gen 1" and made some more dev kits or whatever, then made Gen 2 the first consumer version!

    So my story is I was a long time owner/user/developer on DK2. Sure it had its downsides but it let me enjoy many things that I came to expect from VR, namely that direct visual connection, Via lenses (non fresnel) with screens that had GORGEOUS jet black BLACKS, and ZERO god rays, no tint etc. Sure there was black smear, now and then, but it was such a small annoyance that it didn't actively harm the feeling of VR.

    Vive and Rift CV1 come along and BOTH of them suffer from crappy black levels (this kills me - the things we could achieve and experience in all its beauty if these puppies had proper black levels like the DK2 had - giant step back in Vive and Rift to nerf the black levels), they both have god rays/lens flare (the point that for 50% of the time they are next to useless), yes I have blue eyes if that counts but either way those flares are the worst thing ever to happen to VR. They instantly disconnect you from any semblance of another world. I experienced more in the Vive even though Rift has it a touch worse (because I owned vive and only got to borrow Rift for a week from a friend). To say they are both beyond disappointing would be accurate, anyone who disagrees has appauling quality standards or never saw how good DK2 handled blacks and ZERO lens flare. Without the ability to have solid blacks and no lens flare in high contrast (neon worlds etc) scenes, VR is as good as dead to me. Without deep liquid blacks you can NOT invoke the mind or the imagination correctly to believe you are somewhere. It all just looks like a poster of a scene, printed on a bad printer.

    I think those two are the killer problems , blacks and flares, and absolutely need to be sorted for gen 2 or nobody is going to be wowed by it any more.

    Res, FOV, comfort etc can all improve over time, a given, and with new cards and new ways to render we should get to the MUCH needed higher res sooner that we thought. Comfort is hard to get right but neither cut it really. The thing is, DK2 wasn't exactly comfy BUT as the visual connection was so solid it didn't bother you so much.

    So, sure on typical light/cartoon scenes there is no problem with lack of deep blacks or god rays, so instead we can see the so-called positives of gen 1 - higher res, maybe higher FOV (just) etc - but frankly it's completely underwhelming, esp for such a price hike over the DK2.

    So to come out with gen 1, without proper VR controls, with a DOUBLING of price, and a handful of improvements) built in headphones, better comfort, higher res - great but the downsides really do outweigh that. And to think how expensive these are they just don't cut it.

    I can only hope/wish/dream that secretly they have this sorted for gen 2 or other HMD makers have because grey blacks and god rays just will NOT work in VR. They are awful, they kill it. These are FAR more important to get solved (or just revert to DK2 tech - you did it once ffs!) before proceeding with higher res/fov.

    And yes, the res of gen 1 is still too low, but on DK2 it was kind cool and ok, again it was cheap, and you got great blacks and zero god rays, so while it wasn't super HD or anything it still FELT right.

    Frankly facebook cash or not, I see zero improvement in actual displays over what they could have achieved with the natural march of time anyway. I do see a ridiculous retail price that limits the market to only the hardcore VR nuts though, what went so wrong?

    FTR I sold my Vive, as much as I had some great ROOMSCALE and TRACKED HANDS interaction with it, if it had not been for those two factors I'd have dumped it on day 2 I think, those things really helped and brought VR another massive step forward (esp proper controls), but sadly comfort wasn't there on Vive (too heavy) and on rift it's not as comfy as made out and suffers just the same with bad blacks and rays, but also has uneven screen colour (in lots of cases) tint, etc. Its just not good enough. Anyone who says it is has some very low standards, even making allowances for early VR this IS a "consumer product". I made a few hundred profit by selling my vive, tried a rift (again) to see if it was good enough, and it wasn't, it had all the same and some worse problems visually (my friend has also since sold the rift). I'm now without VR at all, and wish I had kept my DK2 at least for my own messing around in UE4 as in DK2 it was a lot of fun with dark scenes etc, of course it lacks any meaningful VR control (touch) so ultimately is also not good enough as a system. Rift without touch is just as bad as DK2 in that respect and I can't even enjoy proper, mind expanding blacks, or streak free gaming (god rays at their worst btw make it feel like you are looking through a dirty divers helmet and completely kill any presence you think you have).

    So for me DK2 > (Vive and Rift/with touch < these are about equal all things considered). And when a $300 dev kit made out of butter tubs beats your $600 consumer version, you know somethings wrong somewhere.

    I'm not even sure oculus will ever bother to make decent blacks or go back to PROPER lenses again, cost cutting (not passed onto the consumer looking at the rift price!) and trying to make it lighter is going to mess up VR for a long time. This is very sad and means VR is STILL not really here. It doesn't FEEL right, it doesn't WORK right yet. It's still just a glimpse of the future, but nonetheless DK2 is the far better HMD still, anyone who never used one won't understand why, and those that did and disagree, well you clearly don't care about the FULL RANGE of environments VR COULD get you to, cos with Vive and Rift CV1 many many scenes are essentially off limit to VR.

    I can't even blame FB for this because Vive is just the same. People must speak up about this problem if its to improve, don't just accept it, because it's a killer flaw, far worse than any flaw in the DK2.

    For this reason, and though PSVR has its own problems, I think if the use of RGB and non fresnel lenses in PSVR (even with lower res and crappier input) means we get jet black blacks and zero god rays, then Sony have won Gen 1, warts and all, lower power and all. If they DO open it up to PC devs then they will make a killing. I'm sure they are also far from perfect (they have an oil stain effect I've read) but that sounds the lesser of the evils to me, will see I have one on pre-order but if it doesn't please me it's going straight on ebay (or back to amazon) then gen 2 it will be.

    If oculus have any remaining sincerity about wanting to the 'the best VR' then they will address bad blacks and god rays for GEN 2, if not then clearly they are on in it for the money only and to milk customers with barely worthwhile improvements, and remember I'm also saying the same about Valve/HTC or whoever makes competing HMDS.
  • bxrdjbxrdj Posts: 61
    Hiro Protagonist
    sorry but I cant help laughing at this thread. 
  • PassiveVRPassiveVR Posts: 153
    Art3mis
    edited July 2016
    bxrdj said:
    sorry but I cant help laughing at this thread. 
    Congratulations, you are part of the problem that will lead to companies not giving you stunning VR. Now go bury your head in the sand some more. You haven't a clue about how VR needs to be, and how badly black levels and god rays affect developers and real VR fans.

    The VR noobs don't really get a say on this sorry, you have no point of reference to base your opinion on. You accept whatever is served to you without question.


  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,044 Volunteer Moderator

    that's getting a little bit too punchy @PassiveVR, take it down a notch

    Intel 5820K OC@4Ghz, Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18362.239)
  • birkbirk Posts: 95
    Hiro Protagonist
    actually after playing a few different games, I found the cv1 to have a nice deep black as long as there is some contrast to it, I couldn't see that the pixels where on, except Edge of nowhere, that game the black seems very redish and bright to me. 
  • Arock387Arock387 Posts: 727
    Trinity
    So, I've been gaming since roughly 1989 (I was born in 87.  moms says It was sooner. I don't remember sooner.  I remember Metal Gear, Zelda and Mario at 2 yrs of age.  I have managed to be a mid-high functioning adult with kids and a good job and still get a good time to game.  I custom build my PC and I play on a 55" 4k screen.  I know what quality looks and feels like. Also, for the guy throwing punches at "not knowing quality and never owned a DK2"  I did own a DK2, sold it after two days with my CV1.  Why?  cause CV1 is MOST DEFINITELY an upgrade,  but strictly an opinion. 

    I can not complain about VR.  Sure there are some god Rays, yea the black isn't like being lost in the Woods of Vermont in the middle of the night  But it works.  All of it works. For the first gen of VR you all are asking for shit that just isn't ready yet.  Give it time.  If you don't like it sell your stuff and move on.  I am going to continue enjoying the shit out of what we have. Why?  Because there is a decent chance I could get in a car accident. or something stupid happening to me and then I would have missed out on a great potential.  a game changer in the way we interact with games.
  • Mr.CreepyMr.Creepy Posts: 792
    Neo
    edited July 2016
    Can't see why Vive or Rift they would hurt VR. Most people who try it are thoroughly impressed as far as i can tell. I have only showed it to my brother, but he was very impressed too. People who aren't even gamers start to want this technology, when they see what it is capable of. I don't think we should underestimate this current gen as a way grow VR, as even though it still has a lot of flaws, it still demonstrates something that most people don't even think about is possible. When people try this or see the reaction of many of those who tried it, they find become interested in it. People will, initially at least, see past the artifacts, or just ignore them because what is behind it, is still a really impressive experience. Even if people see the flaws as a problem, they will be ready to buy as soon as a product is released that is better.
  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,792 Valuable Player
    PassiveVR said:
    bxrdj said:
    sorry but I cant help laughing at this thread. 
    Congratulations, you are part of the problem that will lead to companies not giving you stunning VR. Now go bury your head in the sand some more. You haven't a clue about how VR needs to be, and how badly black levels and god rays affect developers and real VR fans.

    The VR noobs don't really get a say on this sorry, you have no point of reference to base your opinion on. You accept whatever is served to you without question.



    I have stunning VR and i'm very happy with it.
  • Chewie71Chewie71 Posts: 142
    What's DK2? is that like carboard? I had cardboard with an old phone. Rift is amazing!
  • dc2889dc2889 Posts: 63
    Hiro Protagonist
    dk2 was way better. i had a dk2 since day one it was almost a consumer product it was so good. every time i put it on it blew my mind but the cv1 is a major step back. i have brown eyes and these god rays are a fucking disgrace.its kills the rift for me.when i bought the cv1 i expected a dk2 with slightly better image in a cv1 body. what i got is two dirty peepholes side by side in pretty case. i'm pissed because i sold my beautiful dk2 thinking that the cv1 was going to be better because of reviews on here  :'( :'( :'( :'( :s. now i'm stuck with this thing that hurts my eyes the dk2 never hurt my eyes. how do you fuck up so royally. if you want a real review of the cv1 on listen to the shitty reviews. ps vive also sucks but at least they have good controls and a decent store. and where the fuck is netflix could of sworn they said it would be available on home.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,044 Volunteer Moderator

    @dc2889, if it hurts your eyes, I'd suggest selling it, on ebay CV1's are still selling for more than the purchase price, you'll be able to get a DK2 on there for as much as you sold yours, all you have to do is wait for a consumer headset that suits you

    problem solved :)

    ...now can't stay & chat, off to have some VR fun

    Intel 5820K OC@4Ghz, Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18362.239)
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