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Diminished momentum in VR .

nroskonrosko Posts: 954
Neo
When VR was released there was a bit of a spike in some motivation for developers to include VR support. Beyond this Im' starting to worry that there is very little going on. i can under stand that some games are not suited or would require a great deal of  modification. but what worries me most is the lack of VR in new or existing driving games & sims that should in theory be ideal. Codemasters F1, forza ms 6 & rz3, RrE, r factor 2, automobilsta. Just seems to be more & more bleak as months go by. ED is great in vr but there is no hurry for star citizen or any other space game. Just seems things have flat lined. Games are released & it just feels like small silent farts of minimal indifference (oh a game has been released)rather than genuine excitement. 
Touch is going to make 0 difference to this imo, there will be a bit of fuss for a few months then back to normal. 
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Comments

  • GomuningenGomuningen Posts: 4
    NerveGear
    My Oculus has been sitting in the box for several months now. It was exciting for the first few weeks. I just can not get past the small pixels and poor graphics quality..I am running a beefy machine which has a Nvidia 1080. 
  • GenetixStudioGenetixStudio Posts: 770
    3Jane
    Many of the games coming out right now were already in development years before the Rift was available for consumers. Many games being started now won't be out for a few years, and by then there should quite a few more people with headsets. 

    If you want to see this stuff though, vote with your wallet - and if you find a good game that seems like it would fit VR well let the developers know! I myself have only bought one flat game since getting my Rift, my money goes to VR and will hopefully show devs that it can be worth it.
  • nroskonrosko Posts: 954
    Neo
    I just thought simulated cockpit games would be certain to include it but there has really been nothing. Its not like VR is a surprise & it just appeared a few months ago & developers just need to catch up. I actually think they don't think its a success. At the start some developers gambled on it but now things have settled most thinkits not worth the effort.  
  • nroskonrosko Posts: 954
    Neo
    My Oculus has been sitting in the box for several months now. It was exciting for the first few weeks. I just can not get past the small pixels and poor graphics quality..I am running a beefy machine which has a Nvidia 1080. 

    The above issue is a non issue for me i think VR is way better than 2d but i guess if half the buyers feel the same as you then that's bad news also. 
  • pertmpertm Posts: 71
    Hiro Protagonist
    nrosko said:
    My Oculus has been sitting in the box for several months now. It was exciting for the first few weeks. I just can not get past the small pixels and poor graphics quality..I am running a beefy machine which has a Nvidia 1080. 

    The above issue is a non issue for me i think VR is way better than 2d but i guess if half the buyers feel the same as you then that's bad news also. 
    The only reason I am not selling my Rift is because I have to try the Touch controllers and I really hope it will change my mind about selling it again. most of the games out right now is just like playing arcade games from the 80's just much much more immersive.
  • I just think its difficult to render stuff at 90 fps, twice, compared to 60 fps once. You can't make a game that looks great at 60 fps and just flip a switch and expect it to hold up.
    Besides, it's still early. PS4 VR has yet to hit - those games will be easier to port to PC. Plus Scorpio coming out next year, Nintendo's is working on a box for VR. Hololens coming and MS putting support for it in Win 10. Intel got Project Alloy. Things are only just beginning !
  • mbze430mbze430 Posts: 567
    Trinity
    nrosko said:
    I just thought simulated cockpit games would be certain to include it but there has really been nothing. Its not like VR is a surprise & it just appeared a few months ago & developers just need to catch up. I actually think they don't think its a success. At the start some developers gambled on it but now things have settled most thinkits not worth the effort.  
    exactly my thought.  The easiest games to add VR are the ones with cockpits.  However.... F1 2016 doesn't have VR, but Dirt Rally did.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,009 Valuable Player
    My VR gaming slowed as well, but only because I beat most of the beatable titles: Chronos, Luckys Tale, Farlands, Technolust, Dead Secret, Albino Lullaby, Crystal Rift, Edge of Nowhere, Fated.

    I've also spent tons of hours in non-story driven games like: Eve-Valkyrie, Blazerush, Darknet, Hitman GO.

    I think some people like to complain for the sake of it, and in their mind everything is slow and terrible all the time. Others, like myself, have been fluctuating right along with the gaming market itself since its inception.

    There are dry spells with console and standard PC gaming alike. That's what happens when you play all the good stuff as fast as possible. I'm fine waiting for the next major surge. Which will likely happen when Touch is released.

    Although the people who make it a point to complain no matter what still won't be happen even then :o
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  • Paul_BlythePaul_Blythe Posts: 326
    Trinity
    Still early days yet, plus those early adoption rate predictions were laughably over optimistic. IMHO, cockpit based games are VR's shining ray of hope for the moment.

    Actually looking forward to the release of Touch, not sure how much they'll get used as I'm a sim racer foremost. However, I am looking forward to Medium and Arizona Sunshine. Hopefully once Touch is out, more dev's will make the transition over to VR, with simultaneous development on Vive & Rift. Plus, with PSVR, maybe a push for some VR based content for Tomb Raider, Metal Gear Solid, The Witcher etc!?
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,009 Valuable Player
    The Boss battles in Chronos and story-driven gameplay of Technolust and Albino Lullaby are a great preview of the greatness to come.
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  • msm903msm903 Posts: 106
    Art3mis
    I have both the Rift and VIVE, they sit hooked up to my system more or less collecting dust. Have tried a few of the free games and purchased some of the paid content also. I guess I had too high hopes.  I have shown VR to friends and family, they  like it, but the entry cost is the turn off.

    I admit i have not tried most of the paid content on Oculus Home. Just not games that interest me in or out of VR. I keep looking here to see if something new and in my tastes will show up. so far no luck :(

    I never sell IT gear so I guess it will stay until it stops working or something good for me shows up.
  • RonsonPLRonsonPL Posts: 1,115
    Trinity
    edited September 2016
    Devs had higher hopes, you say?

    Maybe it was back in the days when no one knew CV1 will be 900€ (with Touch) while incorporating low quality hardware. High price or low quality - one of those would be acceptable.
    We unfortunately have both.

    That's why we don't see VR support even in obvious titles (cocpit/racing etc.)
    For the devs or their publishers, hardware for 900€ + PC doesn't exist. Not in their worlds.

    I've seen a lot of people who would agree to some bad things. But so far Vive is expensive, Rift doesn't have VR controllers, display is crappy 2160x1200 with god rays, and most importantly, there is not much AAA games or the VR isn't implemented 100% as it should. Many people are afraid it's destined to disappear in next few years, because it's a Wii-type of accessory. Not really designed for core gaming.
    Those people are wrong, of course, but the current state of serious VR games to buy just ensures those people they are right.
    Nor Vive nor Oculus give a shit about PC VR, so it's stalled since 2 years.
    - 2 years since Crescent Bay CV1 prototype - https://www3.oculus.com/en-us/blog/oculus-connect-2014/
    - we saw focus being moved from PC VR to mobile VR, work on SDK was slow, Oculus was rushing for Samsung Gear VR release.
    - etc.


    Those people who decide, are blind. They have no imagination (or "tech-imagination"). They are just financists. Not gamers, not tech enthusiasts.
    Just to remind you - most of them were very surprised that PS4 and Xone sales started well and kept going well. They were already talking about new trend, that people don't want consoles anymore, the mobiles are to dominate.
    For every gamer it was obvious people will buy A LOT of new consoles if they were forced to wait 8 years, especially if the price is so low. But not for the people with $ $ in their eyes. They were surprised. 
    EA was surprised. Even Sony was surprised that their PS4 sells.

    I hope what I wrote helps you understand why we still don't have a 100% finished VR support even in games where doing this is easy, and even in games that got initial DK2 support many years ago.


    1. Sony PSVR will start it.
    2. Then Xbox Scorpio will boost CV1 sales. Q1 2018
    I really expect Oculus to slash CV1+Touch price by a lot for the Scorpio release or very soon after. Q4 2017 to Q1 2018
    3. Then people saying "I'd buy but with that cable? No way! I don't want to hear about it" will get their wireless versions of the Rift and other HMDs. When? I have no idea, but I'd guess it will happen in 1-1.5 year from now.
    Technology is at operational prototype stage, so I don't see why we should not see at least one big company to get this in 2017. Vive? Rift? Other? I don't know, but not just one company works on it, and we also had the rumors about "big" players being very intrested in licensing (buying) the tech to incorporate it in their new HMD designs.
    Cables are very bad in PR folk's eyes. That will give them a high priority IMHO.

    From this point, avalanche will gain enough momentum. VR gaming will bloom despite whatever stupid moves done by the players in this game (Oculus, Sony, Valve, Intel, AMD, Nvidia, MS, and new ones).
    And then you/we should have no worries like you described. I also want every every racing game to have full VR support - physics and gameplay equipped with coil spring-like algorythms which will smooth out the sudden jumps of the camera (getting rid of camera shake at high speeds is obvious), and features helping to avoid motion sickness triggered by crashing.
    Not an Oculus hater, but not a fan anymore.
    Still lots of respect for the team-Carmack, Abrash.
    Oculus is driven by big corporation principles now. That brings painful effects already, more to come in the future. This is not the Oculus I once cheered for.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,989 Valuable Player
    edited September 2016
    I can't help but think that VR has arrived to early for some people. Had VR been released in 5 years time then most of use would own computers capable of running 4K screens. The graphics are a big problem to some people, but you have to remember it's the hardware that's holding VR back.

    I do feel that some of the graphics could be better in some games, but I feel the they are catering for the Geforce 970 mostly. When lots of people own a Geforce 1080 and the one pass technology kicks in, then I'm sure it will bring about more improvements and we will see quality graphics. I'm sure VR is here to stay this time around because it can only get better as computer hardware improves.

    I do think the OP has a point and I hope VR can continue even if it's at a slow pace. I don't think those in the know thought VR would advance quickly though. You only have to look at the current computer hardware to know it's not possible to take this to the next level yet. This is going to be like the old television sets we had years ago and the ones we have today. It's going to take sometime, but I believe VR is here to stay. The thing that VR achieves today is that it places you inside a game world and it does it well. 
  • falken76falken76 Posts: 2,899 Valuable Player
    nrosko said:
    I just thought simulated cockpit games would be certain to include it but there has really been nothing. Its not like VR is a surprise & it just appeared a few months ago & developers just need to catch up. I actually think they don't think its a success. At the start some developers gambled on it but now things have settled most thinkits not worth the effort.  
    When VR is much more affordable I think you'll see things like that get developed for it more regularly.  Right now their Return on Investment probably doesn't justify the cost considering the actual size of the VR user base.  These machines cost a small fortune just to run the hardware, the target clientel for the developers are not the tiny demographic of these users with expensive machines, it's the general public they are trying to sell their products to.  The general public isn't paying over $2,000 for a computer just to play games in VR.  The price will drop as time goes on.  Then you'll see a lot of interesting things.  When there's money for those developers to make, you'll see awesome apps.  Until then, you'll get what we have now.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,036 Valuable Player
    edited September 2016
    This claimed "Dry Spell", would seem partly caused by the lack of quality content that can offer long term experiences (excluding the exceptions such as Elite, etc.,) partly due to a natural pause as we wait for Sony PSVR, and in part due to the decision of OVR to stagger their launch, with TOUCH acting as a relaunch for CV1 (to quote Nate, "...a 2.0. for the CV1..." paraphrased).

    A lot of the hyperbole has met the reality of consumer adoption, and the issues of forcing a seated experience approach against the 'presence' achieved with a Roomscale offering have hit home. While at the same time the momentum in mobile VR has hit its own limitations as we wait on Daydreams offering.

    Away from the consumer 'pause', we are seeing a major upswing in development and installations in the Digital Out-of-Home entertainment (DOE) scene, with a number of new opening in North America and Asia - most notably the success of the Ghostbusters experience and developments from VRcade.

    I think the big question is 'duration of play' regarding consumer VR - the ideal duration players want to wear the equipment, the impact of installation (setting it up, packing it away and getting it out again). And the quality of usage they get out of it and the danger of it diminishing each time. Obviously, there are the hardcore fans that can not get enough - but the initall reports of a drop off in sales seem to be mirrored by a general slowing in day-to-day usage in some quarters.

    Hopefully, this is as stated, "just a dry spell", and the November TOUCH release following the Sony launch, and MS announcements will inject a new drive into the consumer adoption.
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  • manumanu Posts: 78
    Hiro Protagonist
    I think VR without a tracked motion controller is not the full experience. I feel I'll be more involved with the games I would play with it than without.
    Xbox controller is a great substitute, but I think a real tracked controller can change the game and also be way more immersive.
    My only concern is it's adoption. Vive may already have a larger audience, and the introduction of Touch will divide the Oculus audience. The best thing about controllers are how developers choose to design the games around them. It's fortunate that Oculus has a first party, I just hope they focus on making fewer quality titles rather than a large number of smaller ones.
    At some point the developers will need to stop thinking about the tech and start to focus more on the game's artistic vision.
    I think PSVR will help, because of the similarity in controls/tracking scale with a strong third party if it succeeds. I love to see the day when a VR game would win game of the year.
    The other factor is the price of VR games. The cheaper games are more like smart phone games, and are not meant to be AAA experiences. They are very successful on phones for people trying to kill time. What I want to see are more hit AAA games in the next few years.
    I'm not talking about graphics alone when it comes to AAA VR. I'm talking script, voice acting, music and characters that can compete with the best conventional games.

  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,036 Valuable Player
    manu.
    I think we all have to agree that a gamepad as originally stated back in 2014 "is not suitable for true VR" (paraphrase). And that the track controller / roomscale approach has always been the key objective of VR for those wanting to experience true presence.

    I fully understand that VR experiences are achievable from a seated position using a gamepad, but the majority of the VR community was focused on the 'presence' element of being placed in a virtual environment and not a cockpit (though that aspect was still part of the overall aspirations of VR it was not the majority of interest).

    The attempt to defend a position against tracked controllers, and then to adopt a 'coming soon' approach has tarnished much credibility on all sides. The reality of the overall penetration achieved by Valve/HTC with a VR Room > Vive approach counters the DK2 > CV1 path, now needing a detour to a CV1/TOUCH rebalancing.

    The constant statements from current OVR management that "we could have launched TOUCH now" but decided against it speaks volumes, and I look forward to hearing the real explanation for the seated route, and who will take responsibility for this call?
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  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,617 Valuable Player
    RonsonPL so huh.. what would you have done different for gaming VR PC :)?
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,009 Valuable Player
    Folks like @RonsonPL dont have solutions, they just type long-winded diatribes about fictitious problems.
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  • TwoHedWlfTwoHedWlf Posts: 2,234 Valuable Player
    Mradr said:
    RonsonPL so huh.. what would you have done different for gaming VR PC :)?
    Well, I'd have made it more awesome.  And over here, I'd put some more cool.  And see this thing here?  I'd have badassed it up a little.

    This here is good.

    But this!  Right here, this is boring, get rid of it and replace it with something new and inventive and shiney.  Make everything more new and shiny!

    And I'd have done it on a budget of $3.50
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,311 Valuable Player

    So anyway, I think Oculus could help by keeping the ball rolling in some areas.

    1. New home rooms, or adding a home room to choose from each month.

    2. Make them more exciting, maybe occasionally the cat gets up and yawns or the suit of armour gets out of its case and walks around a bit.

    3. What on earth are they doing with the cinema, no change their since launch except maybe some bug fixes.

    Hold movies nights, include films people may want to buy and watch. Other audience members, multiple people allowed to share a movie.

    4. A body in the home screen. okay maybe wait for touch for this so you can point at things etc.

    Just generally keep things changing and fresh.




  • TorturedTTorturedT Posts: 20
    Brain Burst
    Zenbane said:
    Folks like @RonsonPL dont have solutions, they just type long-winded diatribes about fictitious problems.
    Everything I read from you makes me feel worse for you, your family must have a damn horrorshow with such a father/husband
  • mbze430mbze430 Posts: 567
    Trinity
    Ohh Zenbane definitely have some ego issues, he feels like he's the papa bear in these forums.  He project himself as being the old/wise/mighty.  Obviously, he has the rights to his own opinions, but he projects his own opinions as a belittlement gestures.

    I read his post and I just smile it off.  With his attitude, soon the majority of the users here are going 1) ignore all his post, 2) complain to the OCulus Mod, 3) people stop coming here and look for alternatives
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,009 Valuable Player
    edited September 2016
    @RonsonPL you can try your hand at being a forum warrior but you suck at that just as much as you suck at showing that your supposed 30 years of gaming experience has granted you any insight in to the new VR industry. You and @TorturedT are some of the folks whom I've seen constantly show up and try to pretend that you are witnessing some demise of Oculus brought on by some failed judgment, but at no point do either of you let your brains finish the thought and offer up a real solution or actionable recommendation.

    Your both clowns and I treat you as such. I understand the animosity towards me, and it does get me feeling all giddy. But all you really have to do to shut me up is offer up something truly meaningful instead of constantly rephrasing the same old boring rhetoric.

    In your response to me you act as though you can't bother to type up something intellectual cause it won't change my mind. But that's little more than an excuse, cupcake. @Mradr asked you the same thing, and he is a super nice guy, yet you made another excuse and offered to answer him via PM? lol

    Well hopefully if you do manage to PM him something that shows the past 30 years of your gaming history didn't involve you soiling yourself while button mashing your way across a screen, then it should get posted for all to see as proof that you are actually good at a thing.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,009 Valuable Player
    edited September 2016
    TorturedT said:
    Everything I read from you makes me feel worse for you, your family must have a damn horrorshow with such a father/husband
    I cannibalized my family last week, cause forum activity was so slow.


    mbze430 said:
    I read his post and I just smile it off.  With his attitude, soon the majority of the users here are going 1) ignore all his post, 2) complain to the OCulus Mod, 3) people stop coming here and look for alternatives
    If you think about it, most people probably just do what you do... read everything and smile. That's the smart thing to do. Anyone taking things overly personal are simply reflecting personal problems themselves. When someone brings up my family, for example, it makes me realize that the person doesn't separate their online avatar from their real life, which is probably why they are on the forum so upset with Oculus to begin with. Some of these people truly feel real life pain because of choices made by a Virtual Reality company. I find that humorous to no end.

    As for your options: 1) people who claim to ignore me and then end up typing a wall of text that covers everything since their last interaction with me; 2) There have been at least 3 major callings for the Zenbane witch burning; 3) Those whom I have seen leave or reduce their activity were mostly pro-Vive / anti-Oculus cheerleaders, so it doesn't seem a great loss.

    The alternatives are places like Reddit and the Steam forums. Those are not upgrades, and they are filled with people like me, minus the charm, charism, and willingness to offer a make-out session  :*
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  • HiThere_HiThere_ Posts: 1,277
    3Jane
    I think Touch will trigger more headset purchases, which will trigger more VR support (even for driving games).

    PSVR should also trigger more VR support (even for PC VR).

    But the biggest barrier to VR is probably it's hardware cost, and it's going to take more then six months to get rid of that.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,009 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 said:
    PS-VR might do better at £350 but it doesn't provide the same experience as paying £800 for Vive/Rift minus the cost of the PC to run it. Looking at how the Sony Move controllers failed to catch on in any meaningfull sense means my expectations of VR adoption are and will remain low for the next 5 years.

    This I agree with; very true. An assessment made based on observing the current situation.


    Atmos73 said:
    For VR to suceed you have to pull people away from their TV's and gaming monitors and Teleportation isn't going to do that. Who's going to stop playing the ultra slick Doom/monitor experience for the alternative that is the Doom Teleport monstrocity?


    ... and then valid assessment via current state observation goes bye-bye lol

    Some of the most popular games that were first released for the Rift were free moving FPS: Technolust, Albino Lullaby, Ethan Carter, Eve-Valkyrie, Elite-Dangerous, Crystal Rift, Adr1ft, and Dreadhalls. That isn't even a comprehensive list.

    At the time of release, the only Teleport game available was Farlands. Since then, only one more Teleport game has been released: Damaged Core.

    How can anyone see the facts, stats, numbers... and then conclude the opposite of basic Math? I get that the announcement of Doom VR with Teleportation may cause some to feel that one game suddenly turned in to 30 games; Doom is a long-standing franchise afterall. But try to remember that more than one single Doom game has been made, and there's no reason to assume that more Doom VR games won't be released that attempt pure FPS. Especially once motion sickness issues become a minority.

    As for "VR succeeding," it already has succeeded for reasons that aren't worth listing to anyone who hasn't figured their "know I am's" for their "what I'm not's." VR's ongoing success depends on market share, which is looking strong for another few years.

    In fact, I would go as far as to say that the day people like Atmos73 start to publicly declare that "VR has succeeded" is the day all of us who love VR need to worry. When the bottom of the totem pole is smiling, sheit is going terribly wrong :o
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,009 Valuable Player
    edited September 2016
    You couldn't do Math on the Teleportation vs FPS analysis, so if you think I'm gonna read your attempt to do Big Boy Math, then you craycray.

    You seem to measure all things in a way that ends with you arriving at your own preconceived notions; and you'll use fairy dust math to get there if you have to. The only argument against VR's "growth" are the Video Games on Oculus Home and Steam. However, as I have stated many times before, VR is already changing lives (medical field), and Industries (I listed 12 full industries being changed by VR today).

    VR is successful in many ways; the momentary loss of ongoing video game momentum is meaningless when it comes to realizing the true impact on the entire world. Only those with extreme tunnel vision can't see the bigger picture.

    You don't judge success, you judge people. And badly.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,009 Valuable Player
    edited September 2016
    Well that was a funny one-liner I admit, gave me a chuckle.

    Nonetheless, you are blurring the current state in order to invent a "forest" that needs to be escaped from. Much like you did when you acted as though a mere two Teleportation games somehow outweigh the multitude of FPS-style games between Oculus Home and Steam.

    As for business:
    http://www.asymco.com/2010/10/18/what-really-matters-market-share-vs-profit-share/

    But let's also be very clear about something: what you are arguing about right this moment is whether or not Oculus is a successful business. That is not what we began debating, silly boy. This is what you said:

    "For VR to succeed"

    VR is an Industry, with many organizations taking part. Oculus is one of several companies that partake in the VR Industry. To contrast your terrible statement about VR success, I mentioned the observable fact that VR is impacting lives, science, and industry across the globe that has nothing to do with video games. Next thing you know, your brain goes in to parrot mode and you start talking about Oculus the organization instead of VR the industry.

    You have no idea how to stay on topic, and you clearly can't understand the difference between an Industry and the players in an Industry.

    "VR isn't succeeding!"
    "How do you know?"
    "Cause Oculus, profits, n trees."
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