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Today I Sold My Vive Here's Why

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  • JED44JED44 Posts: 448 Poster of the Week
    @JakemanOculus

    Alot of people, particularly here, use the term room scale to refer to a number of things depending on what they are trying to argue. Alot of the people that used it to bash the vive were referring to games where it was necessary to move around in your actual room and generally speaking confined you to no more than that. (which was a minority of the actual games offered and people wanted to treat it as if that was all you could do)

    People using it to downplay the rift held it up as synonymous with motion controllers and something the rift couldn't do (which was about as flawed) 

    The whole "room scale" differentiation was fueled by people arguing systems based on the largest distinction they had at the time.

    Once touch is out I still think the whole "Room scale" differentiation will largely cease to be, considering you are going to have to use some amount of space, at a minimum arms length in all directions, to use motion controllers at all, which means you have already blurred the "room scale" line. 

    Saying something is room scale would be the difference of taking 0-1 step while playing or taking several, which really isn't a feasible distinction to classify VR by, as almost all games allow you to walk or not walk as you like,  within tracking and cable limitations
  • falken76falken76 Posts: 2,901 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    @Atmos73 Wilsons Heart is one example of a Touch title that has depth. But I do not expect you to acknowledge that nor any other facts. Also, your examples are based on really bad video game analysis, whereas the Oculus Medium application goes far beyond gaming. Your viewpoint and bias are too limited in scope.

    After seeing what Mr Wilde was making, I can not wait for Oculus Medium to come out.  I really don't know if I'd use it over traditional tools like 3dsmax or solidworks, but being able to move the model between programs and just trying a new way to model has got me excited.  These are the apps that interest me the most for VR, I just hope it doesn't cost $600....
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,486 Valuable Player
    Oculus Medium is amazing. You can 3D print stuff! It is literally creating depth lol
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • ZandilZandil Posts: 976
    3Jane
    Well....how much for ?
  • JakemanOculusJakemanOculus Posts: 514
    Neo
    Atmos73 said:

    ...

    VR and Room-scale isn't the gimmick - Teleportation is.  
    Teleportation is not gimmicky because it's built in to the reality of the virtual world.  I have teleport ability.  Cool.

    The alternative to teleportation is physically walking distances with the assistance of chaperone and perhaps reorientation hacks.  You are basically arguing that this video is less gimmicky than teleportation:



    Good luck with that.
  • JakemanOculusJakemanOculus Posts: 514
    Neo
    Atmos73 said:
    Play Onward end of story.
    Yeah.  That's what roomscale is.  I said that before.  You stand in one place and use controllers and gestures like this guy playing Onward:



    Is this related to your claim about teleportation?
  • JakemanOculusJakemanOculus Posts: 514
    Neo
    Atmos73 said:
    Onward proves Teleportation is not needed.
    No.  You said teleportation is gimmicky.  Now you say it's not needed.  Those are two different claims.

    How is teleportation gimmicky?
  • maxpare79maxpare79 Posts: 1,791
    Project 2501
    Agree with @Atmos73 there, teleportation is not needed, give us freedom of movement with the pad or the joystick like Onward.... People will get use to it, teleportation sucks on so many levels... I can pretty much do anything in VR now, motion sickness is a thing of the past for me...Just had to work through it.

    Teleportation breaks immersion and is just an easy way out.

    At least if devs are scared of people with motion sickness just always put both options in your games...

    But multiplayer titles should not ever have teleportation, Onward would suck if you could just teleport away while getting shot at...
    I am a spacesim/flightsim/racesim enthusiast first :-) I9 [email protected], 32gb RAM/ 2080ti Former DK2, Gear VR,CV1 and Rift S owner
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,425 Valuable Player

    The new standalone concept is really interesting, if you took it to a large area like a field (with some reference objects added for tracking, cardboard boxes for example which could be easy to transport flat) you could just walk, run anywhere you want without the need for teleportation and only the occasional need to reset the world when you got to the far edges of the big space.

  • HanoverHanover Posts: 549
    Neo
    edited October 2016
    Croteam asking for $40 for an early access title is why I wont buy a Vive.

    I now own two VR platforms (PSVR, Rift), both have plenty of finished titles that I can spend that $40 on.  In fact, you could potentially get two games for that much.

    I can only see that getting worse for Vive and it's indie developers as more and more VR platforms arrive with finished content competing for our money.

    Atmos73 said:
    @Zenbane the argument here is about Oculus's new games built for Touch that fall into the same trap a lot of Vive games do and that is they are shooters with little or no depth aka story or interaction with characters or their surroundings. 
     That is an inaccurate generalization.  Did you not see the games at E3 or shown during Connect 3?  I don't think Wilson's Heart or Unspoken are wave shooters.  The Climb is not a wave shooter.  I Expect You to Die is also not a wave shooter.  Obduction won't be a wave shooter either.  You could just click on that O in the upper left corner, click Rift and then click Experiences and see for yourself.  :)
  • notsramnotsram Posts: 1,238
    Wintermute
    Not being lucky enough to be able to afford more than one system, I'm still more than happy with my Vive. I'm in the opposite boat to you, Shadowmask, I absolutely love the freedom and immersion of being able to move around in games, and thus far, I'd take that over a joypad controlled, seated game any time. I've tried games like Chronos, Luckys Tale etc and yes, they're good games, but they seem to lack something to me after having played game where you actually move about and interact with things.

    That said, I do agree that there's a lack of any really good killer app out there for it. Raw Data is fantastic and has a lot of potential, but is still very much early access. Audioshield is amazingly good fun, but as a killer app? Nope.  There are a lot of potentially good games out there, but none of them are remotely finished. They're all early access. All limited. All being constantly patched and upgraded.

    But, that's the price you pay for being one of the first to adopt a new piece of tech. The games will come (I'm very much hoping some of the PSVR stuff finds it way to PC land sooner rather than later).
  • HanoverHanover Posts: 549
    Neo
    edited October 2016
    The Climb is the only game that is already out.  So wrong again.

    A little research goes a long way.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,486 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 said:

    VR and Room-scale isn't the gimmick - Teleportation is.
     
    Except for the part where you proved yourself wrong moments later...

    "Play Onward end of story."
    -Atmos73

    "You stand in one place and use controllers and gestures like this guy playing Onward"
    -JakemanOculus

    "Onward proves Teleportation is not needed."
    -Atmos73

    "It's a gimmick because its not needed."
    -Atmos73


    Standing in one place proves that both Teleportation and Room-scale is not needed. And if something is a gimmick because it's not needed... then both Teleportation and Roomscale are gimmicks, based on your own "stand in one place" example.

    You're just not good at thinking, @Atmos73 - but I like your spam in this thread. I've never really seen you post this much, it looks like Shadow's choice to abandon the Vive really broke your heart. How glorious!
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,486 Valuable Player
    edited October 2016
    Atmos73 said:
    Wilson's Heart looks good but its another Teleporter - and worse, to fixed positions. There's no freedom of movement what so ever. Why oh why, its a adventure game.
     
    Your original argument is that no Touch games had depth. Now that I proved you wrong (Wilsons Heart has depth), you desperately try to switch the premise to camera movement. You were wrong about depth, and are you really saying that fixed position is "worse" than Teleportation even though you brag about the effectiveness of standing in one place with Onward?

    Is there really no part of you that at least wants to pretend to think clearly?
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,486 Valuable Player
    edited October 2016
    Atmos73 said:
    Huh? I'm on about NEW Touch games. The Climb doesn't count it's been out for months.
    So Oculus has plenty of great games for the Touch... and all your statements criticizing their games as either lacking depth or being only shooters is limited just to certain criteria that you think makes you right. We can't count The Climb cause it is out already, but we can't count new Touch titles like Wilsons Heart because it has camera controls you don't agree with (unless we're talking about Onwward then fixed position is the best thing ever).

    The Climb counts, Wilsons Heart counts, Oculus Medium counts. You have no real point, just lots of spam.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,486 Valuable Player
    Touch refers to hand-controllers, not room-scale. I don't believe you've ever really used VR, let alone anything with hand controllers. Hense the reason you think hand-controllers and room-scale are the same thing.

    Onward is the only game that "may" be worth playing with the Vive. You cling on to that title for dear life, and contradict yourself with its praises at every turn. I'm impressed that you can enjoy such a monotonous game and wear that repetition like a badge of honor. I look forward to reading more of your Onward praises as my Oculus library slowly starts to hit triple digits :p
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,486 Valuable Player
    edited October 2016
    Atmos73 said:
    Enjoy your Teleportation and let me know when s realistic Game comes out for Touch and not one where you're jumping around like a frog on a hot plate. Lol
    Your original argument was about "depth" and you're only now switching it to camera position because you lost that fight miserably. You jump around from premise to premise like a frog on a hot plate on the forum... so I'm not sure why you're so against it in a video game. Maybe you tire yourself out with your debate style? lol

    Also, which games have convinced you that they are "real"? When you play Onward you really believe you're a soldier in real life? lmao, that's creepy dude.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,486 Valuable Player
    There are plenty of things about the games you listed that are not realistic at all. In fact, there is nothing about a single video game that I find realistic. And don't try to lie, you know that you associate "realistic" with "real." That's the only thing that explains your lunacy in this thready buddy.
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  • FrozenPeaFrozenPea Posts: 2,535 Valuable Player
  • JED44JED44 Posts: 448 Poster of the Week
    edited October 2016
    Edit- sorry for the wall of text , no way to space paragraphs on mobile - So here's a question to get this thread back on track. What defines depth? Personally I think video game depth can mean different things, but generally speaking I see it as Content or features that keeps a player coming back, this can be mechanical depth or story and character depth. A game like league has mechanical depth becuase you can constantly come back and learn more about how or what you can do and improve. The climb has mechanical depth becuase of Its varied courses and gameplay mechanics in a similar way, a game like skyrim or fallout has enough content and story to keep people engaged . . Onward has mechanical depth, you can keep coming back and improve and learn. In a slightly different way then most traditional fps games, considering The skill and strategy involved is more like playing paintball if anyone here has done that. . A game like Wilson's heart or call of starseed does not have much mechanical depth, it's mainly exploring a small area and solving simple puzzles , you are on the rails as well. Story wise i would lean to say it has a bit more depth than a standard movie. Very highly focused story content which will last somewhere in the 3-5 hour range when fully explored, and then it really doesn't have any replay ability . Thats all well and good but i would say as a video game they are not really all the deep. Certainly nothing close to the likes of story and visual depth in a game like skyrim or the witcher.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,486 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 said:
    No I don't associate Realistic with Real. Your reputation for putting words in people's mouths precedes you. Have you reached the 3000 mark yet or are you going to keep this up for the rest of the day till you do? Actually don't answer that.
    You associate depth in story with camera movement, so who knows how far your lack of perception truly goes. Onward is a game where the player sits in a lobby waiting to shoot people on a set series of maps. That happens over, and over, and over, and over. Onward is surely the best monotonous FPS experience so far, I won't argue that it may be the current king of FPS Repetition. But you keep bringing it up in the same breath where you criticize Touch titles for lacking depth.

    Unless we talk about the depth of Wilsons Heart then you switch back to camera movement ala Onward, the game with no depth.

    Maybe you don't associate Realistic with Real after all, since in order to do so  you'd have to understand what's real first.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • edmgedmg Posts: 1,158
    Wintermute
    Atmos73 said:
    Room-scale is not a gimmick it's a vital part of VR when playing FPS.
    Geez, I must have been playing them wrong all this time, then.
  • maxpare79maxpare79 Posts: 1,791
    Project 2501
    @Atmos73 @Zenbane I don't mind a good discussion but stop throwing jabs at each other...
    I am a spacesim/flightsim/racesim enthusiast first :-) I9 [email protected], 32gb RAM/ 2080ti Former DK2, Gear VR,CV1 and Rift S owner
  • Percy1983Percy1983 Posts: 1,410
    Wintermute

    On a very simple basis the range of games on Rift is better due to simple maths, here goes:

    Vive = Steam

    Oculus = Steam + Oculus Store

    Just to separate the 2, I don't want room scale but do look forward to hand controllers.

    There is one game I am looking forward to with touch which has been lost time... surgeon simulator!

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,486 Valuable Player
    edited October 2016
    Atmos73 said:
    @Zenbane In no way have I associated depth with movement. At least Jed44 has the right idea, read above.


      I dont read JED's posts. And you are still dodging the fact that you claimed "no new Touch Titles have depth," and when Wilsons Heart was presented, you switched the premise to camera controls.

    You also claimed that "standing in one place proves Teleportation is a gimmick," while completely ignoring the fact that standing in one place would also prove Room-Scale is a gimmick.

    You keep making claims and then abandoning them in favor of making non-applicable replies that serve as nothing more than to add confusion and diffusion to a silly debate that you started.

    Atmos73 said:
    Zenbane has a habit of making up false arguments like the difference between 'real and 'realistic' and then gets personal with jibes like 'creepy' and 'lunacy'. I try to keep above such immaturity.
    Now, now, you don't have a problem dismissing my retorts as being solely for forum points. I take jabs while making arguments; you take jabs as a substitution for a valid argument.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,486 Valuable Player
    I"ll just quote things you've said...

    "My point is Oculus are going through the same cycle of mindless shooters the Vive gets so much criticism for."

    "The fact is most of the new games coming from Oculus have less depth than a puddle of water. "

    You didn't say "no new" you just said "most of the new." However, your main point has been depth, yet you keep preaching the glory of Onward which is just a mindless shooter than has no depth. Waiting in a Lobby before you run around the same maps killing people is not depth.

    You contradict yourself. Wilsons Heart has more depth than your beloved Onward by a huge margin.
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  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player
    edited October 2016

    Zen, I say this despite the old adage about a leopard changing its spots.  I'm amazed at how often you raise great points and then completely bury them in adversarial language that insults your target. 

    An attack on an idea is fine.
    An attack on a person is not fine.

    Somehow you manage to do both at the same time.

    So often your posts seem to say "That's a bad idea for these logical reasons, and only an idiot would believe it otherwise". :)

    Edit: Yes, I'm aware this post is somewhat ironic and that it comes off as a sort of backhanded compliment.

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • JED44JED44 Posts: 448 Poster of the Week
    I don't think @Zenbane has even watched a gameplay video of onward... let alone has any play experience to base his statements on. If you are gonna make statements at least make sure you have an idea of what you are talking about. Jeez .
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,486 Valuable Player
    JED44 said:
    I don't think @Zenbane has even watched a gameplay video of onward... let alone has any play experience to base his statements on. If you are gonna make statements at least make sure you have an idea of what you are talking about. Jeez .
    There's a video of Onward in this thread, and there are Reddit posts of people who got a refund for Onward due to the Lobby waiting and map repetition. Having an idea of what you're talking about has never been your strong suit.


    Zoomie said:

    Zen, I say this despite the old adage about a leopard changing its spots.  I'm amazed at how often you raise great points and then completely bury them in adversarial language that insults your target. 

    An attack on an idea is fine.
    An attack on a person is not fine.

    Somehow you manage to do both at the same time.

    So often your posts seem to say "That's a bad idea for these logical reasons, and only an idiot would believe it otherwise". :)

    Edit: Yes, I'm aware this post is somewhat ironic and that it comes off as a sort of backhanded compliment.


    Welcome back to the forum. Glad to see you're still trying to analyze me. But at least now you see the irony in your topic derail post. You're improving slowly.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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