What exactly did HTC make in the "HTC" Vive? - Page 2 — Oculus
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What exactly did HTC make in the "HTC" Vive?

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  • Percy1983Percy1983 Posts: 1,410
    Wintermute
    edited November 2016
    It is worrying how misleading that name is.
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  • LeylandLeyland Posts: 77 Poster of the Week
    edited November 2016
    Zoomie said:

    The overhead from Constellation tracking is actually quite low.  I believe I've seen cpu use quoted in the low single-digit percentages.  In fact, from Luckey Palmer himself here
    “Even in the multi camera demos,” Palmer says, “we are well under 1% CPU power, it’s just insignificant to do this kind of math.” Even when adding “more cameras and more objects,” we are guessing something like of four cameras, two headsets, and two sets of controllers, “it is only eating up 5% of one core.”

    CPU utilization is not the only important thing for performance. If you currently think the only important thing is CPU power, then plug your Rift and Sensor into USB2 ports and see how well things perform! If you monitor every metric on your system you will see OVRServer pushing upwards of 60MB a second, which doesn't sound like much except what do you think happens when one core consumes a lot of the 6 MB of L3 cache on an i5-4590? A lot more cache thrashing, a lot more bus traffic, a lot more bus contention between cores, a lot of IO, and guess what else? The CPU will be waiting, stalled, a lot longer and overall look more idle than busy.

    Plus each additional camera requires another USB3 port? You know how many USB3 ports lighthouse requires? ZERO! I mean it's sensor data is so small it can seemingly be pushed wirelessly!

    Maybe another one of the reasons Oculus thinks inside-out tracking is better for mobile is because of the high requirements of Constellation? Well technically lighthouse is an inside-out solution!

  • LeylandLeyland Posts: 77 Poster of the Week
    Percy1983 said:

    One problem... OpenVR isn't actually... open...
    AFAIK it's as open as OpenGL, and so would mislead you in the same way.
  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player
    I don't think cpu use is the only metric, I was simply showing that the demand on the cpu (the typical complaint) is very low.

    In terms of USB 3 use, that's also overblown in my opinion.  Even with a 3 or 4 camera setup you're using 3 or 4 USB ports.  If you don't have enough, just buy a USB card and problem solved.  I have no performance issues when running the Rift so maybe it's time to upgrade from your 4590.  My 6600k has no problem keeping up with the minimal demands of the Rift.

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • LeylandLeyland Posts: 77 Poster of the Week
    Zoomie said:

    In terms of USB 3 use, that's also overblown in my opinion.  Even with a 3 or 4 camera setup you're using 3 or 4 USB ports.  If you don't have enough, just buy a USB card and problem solved.  I have no performance issues when running the Rift so maybe it's time to upgrade from your 4590.  My 6600k has no problem keeping up with the minimal demands of the Rift.

    My main problem was having an older motherboard, my CPU was up to snuff (which we just discussed CPU power not being an issue) and in fact I was playing fine with Oculus Rift for sometime until they pushed out some updates and then I was getting messed up tracking performance and sometimes disconnects from the sensor. But it doesn't matter now, I upgraded my system, I had to in order to be able to play in VR with the Rift.

    But my original point was that, this idea that Oculus being some kind of performance standard for the industry, is opposite of my own experience so far, having to upgrade to deal with performance issues. And you are basically adding to that point by saying upgrade and problem is solved.

  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player
    I wonder if the USB issues Oculus is having stem from their own software problems, or the fact that many USB applications don't push the published limit of the spec and thus allow inferior products to saturate the market.  Along comes Oculus actually demanding the full published bandwidth, and we all discover that only 30% of the cards or mobos out there actually support the published spec.  Just a thought.

    The one encouraging part of the Oculus development strategy is that if anything, you require a less powerful PC than you did at launch.  ATW and now ASW have allowed people unable to sustain 90fps to play a smooth experience.  
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • SyndroidSyndroid Posts: 242
    Nexus 6
    edited November 2016
    According to Palmer Luckey one constellation camera takes less than 1% cpu. Don't know how accurate that is, but well, I can't complain about performance so far. I only have a 970 and I'm often surprised how well some games run with super sampling and without ATW or ASW helping out most of the time
    I thought there was much more of a performance impact before going from the DK2 to the CV1, but it wasn't really that bad.

    But yeah, the amount of required USB ports is a problem for many people and of course the cables with a multiple camera setup. And luckily I don't have those USB disconnection issues, but I read a lot about them.
  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player
    Syndroid said:
    But yeah, the amount of required USB ports is a problem for many people and of course the cables with a multiple camera setup.
    I've never really seen this as a problem.  I will have one to the left of my PC monitor, one to the right, and one behind me.  Of those three, only one (the rear) will require a long usb cable around the perimeter of my room.  It doesn't really seem too intrusive to me.

    For the default Vive setup you require a power outlet near both corners in which you plan to mount a Lighthouse. Since most people have outlets near the floor, you will have two cables from floor to near the ceiling even in a best case scenario.  Worst case you don't have an outlet in the corners and will have to run an extension.  I'd rather a thin usb cable than a power cord in this case.
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • SakkuraSakkura Posts: 267
    Nexus 6
    Leyland said:
    CPU utilization is not the only important thing for performance. If you currently think the only important thing is CPU power, then plug your Rift and Sensor into USB2 ports and see how well things perform! If you monitor every metric on your system you will see OVRServer pushing upwards of 60MB a second, which doesn't sound like much except what do you think happens when one core consumes a lot of the 6 MB of L3 cache on an i5-4590? A lot more cache thrashing, a lot more bus traffic, a lot more bus contention between cores, a lot of IO, and guess what else? The CPU will be waiting, stalled, a lot longer and overall look more idle than busy.
    The L3 cache of a Core i5-4590 is what, 180 GB/s? I don't think 60 MB/s (ie. 0.06 GB/s) is much of a problem.
  • SyndroidSyndroid Posts: 242
    Nexus 6
    edited November 2016
    Zoomie said:
    Syndroid said:
    But yeah, the amount of required USB ports is a problem for many people and of course the cables with a multiple camera setup.
    I've never really seen this as a problem.  I will have one to the left of my PC monitor, one to the right, and one behind me.  Of those three, only one (the rear) will require a long usb cable around the perimeter of my room.  It doesn't really seem too intrusive to me.

    For the default Vive setup you require a power outlet near both corners in which you plan to mount a Lighthouse. Since most people have outlets near the floor, you will have two cables from floor to near the ceiling even in a best case scenario.  Worst case you don't have an outlet in the corners and will have to run an extension.  I'd rather a thin usb cable than a power cord in this case.

    Those are not problems for me either. I have 10 USB 3,0 ports on my MB and no problem with laying cables across my room. But it's different from User to User..
    Only problem I see is the need for extension cables. Not all of them work as far as I know and you'll need active USB cables for more than 3m.
  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player
    edited November 2016
    The third camera (not the one provided with Touch or the Rift) does come supplied with a 5m extension cable.  

    Found it:

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • SyndroidSyndroid Posts: 242
    Nexus 6
    edited November 2016
    Yes it's a 5m one and that's great. Only the second camera that comes with Touch shoud have one included as well imo. 
  • ApplecorpApplecorp Posts: 741
    3Jane
    Yeah, surely the sensor that comes with the Touch controllers should have a long cable as isn't it supposed to be positioned behind you if you only have two sensors?
  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player
    /agree  I was hoping Touch would ship with the 5m cable so people could use the same setup as Lighthouse. Since Oculus recommends 3 sensors for "room" tracking, I guess they don't think you'll need it until you buy a third one.
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • ApplecorpApplecorp Posts: 741
    3Jane
    How much is the optional third sensor, in £'s?
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,621 Valuable Player
    $80
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  • Sax-a-boomSax-a-boom Posts: 731 Poster of the Week
    Applecorp said:
    How much is the optional third sensor, in £'s?
    £79
  • ApplecorpApplecorp Posts: 741
    3Jane
    edited November 2016
    Pounds I said?   :p
  • SakkuraSakkura Posts: 267
    Nexus 6
    Applecorp said:
    How much is the optional third sensor, in £'s?
    Should show you on oculus.com/cart

    It's 89€ for me.
  • ApplecorpApplecorp Posts: 741
    3Jane
    Aha, £79, that seems expensive.
  • Sax-a-boomSax-a-boom Posts: 731 Poster of the Week
    If you're planning on setting up a rear sensor and running along skirting boards, then mounting high, 5m still doesn't seem like a lot. Also no mention of it's passive extension or not.
  • SakkuraSakkura Posts: 267
    Nexus 6
    Applecorp said:
    Aha, £79, that seems expensive.
    Yeah it's not cheap. Without Brexit it might have hit £69.

    At least 5m cable means you shouldn't need to muck about with extension cables.
  • Sax-a-boomSax-a-boom Posts: 731 Poster of the Week
    edited November 2016
    Sakkura said:
    Applecorp said:
    Aha, £79, that seems expensive.
    Yeah it's not cheap. Without Brexit it might have hit £69.

    At least 5m cable means you shouldn't need to muck about with extension cables.
    But it is a USB extension cable
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,621 Valuable Player
    edited November 2016
    Applecorp said:
    Pounds I said?   :p

    “Pieces? wtf are you talkin… Pounds, baby. Pounds!”




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  • LeylandLeyland Posts: 77 Poster of the Week
    Sakkura said:

    The L3 cache of a Core i5-4590 is what, 180 GB/s? I don't think 60 MB/s (ie. 0.06 GB/s) is much of a problem.
    Yes but that still doesn't take into account latency of the CPU sitting idle waiting for cache to get updated. I mean modern CPU architectures from intel do a good job of trying to predict what memory to fetch and put into cache but they are not perfect, and most developers are not willing to add assembly code or intrinsics to assist it and you are going to not end up fully utilizing the performance of your CPU, its going to spend a percentage of its time idly waiting on that data, it doesn't matter if the data can come in bulk.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,621 Valuable Player
    We cant blame the Hardware for badly written Software.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • SakkuraSakkura Posts: 267
    Nexus 6
    Leyland said:
    Sakkura said:

    The L3 cache of a Core i5-4590 is what, 180 GB/s? I don't think 60 MB/s (ie. 0.06 GB/s) is much of a problem.
    Yes but that still doesn't take into account latency of the CPU sitting idle waiting for cache to get updated. I mean modern CPU architectures from intel do a good job of trying to predict what memory to fetch and put into cache but they are not perfect, and most developers are not willing to add assembly code or intrinsics to assist it and you are going to not end up fully utilizing the performance of your CPU, its going to spend a percentage of its time idly waiting on that data, it doesn't matter if the data can come in bulk.
    But it's so few times per second, times just a few dozen cycles. You're wasting, what, a few microseconds of CPU time per second? That's completely unnoticeable.
  • SyntheticSynthetic Posts: 704
    Trinity
    One of the main reasons I went Rift is that HTC is on its death bed.... this was their last ditch attempt after monumental losses
  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player
    edited November 2016
    HTC might not go away quite yet.  
    Shame they're having problems.  I love my HTC One.
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 13,621 Valuable Player
    Synthetic said:
    One of the main reasons I went Rift is that HTC is on its death bed.... this was their last ditch attempt after monumental losses
    I've also never been a fan of Valve. I always disliked Steam, and HTC phones were notoriously poopoo.

    Long before Oculus and Virtual Reality were a "thing" I stayed away from Valve and HTC:

    1) Steam topics, comments, and reviews are utter garbage. Steam just recently implemented a new policy to control Game Reviews because of the fact that they serve no purpose other than to treat idiocy like an infectious disease.

    2) HTC's mobile market has caused them to report negative earnings repeatedly. Virtual Reality is treated as HTC's last act of desperation.

    3) Personally I have always loved having a physical gaming box that is stored in my own digital library. Steam's interface is something I avoided for many years; and anytime a game forced me to launch Steam the experience was instantly frustrating. I was excited to find that some developers, like Blizzard, manage their own software library for consumers. Oculus does the same. Praise the Lawd.


    At best, HTC is the Sega of the electronics industry. Although they are well on their way to Radio Shack status.
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