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Did Zenbane and Atmos73 deserve the ban hammer?

OpticKing
Expert Trustee
Title says it all, just curious to see the communities opinion.
148 REPLIES 148

That's a not a bad idea although believe it or not it can be used a a tool to agrivate with ignored users increasing their aggression because they quickly realise they're being ignored while others enjoying the sport relay the comments to the people who are doing the ignoring, I've been in forums where that's common... it doesn't always have the effect you think it will.

What anyone can do is message any mod at any time they see a post that breaks the rules... or @ any of us in the thread to bring our attention to it. I'm only on the forum at random times and don't see much of what gets posted, no doubt the same for the others.

lukwtwz
Expert Protege
Zenbane tore apart those who deserved to be torn apart, but also tore apart those who did not deserve it.

When it came to the latter, he not only disagreed with them, he also seemed bent on impugning their every motive for everything from playing games in the first place and eventually buying VR goggles, to forming their opinions and finally posting about them. It was as if their very enthusiasm was under scrutiny, and not just those who were obviously spamming about Vive and whatnot (again, some Vive spammers and trolls deserved to be torn apart, and Zenbane could be useful to that end). Attacks became personal to the point that I felt sorry for some posters who apparently were very sincere and more open-minded about what they were critiquing than Zenbane gave them credit for. In that sense he was the opposite of diplomatic, though he did make you laugh a bit here and there in spite of that.

He made unfounded accusations about things such as how little disposable income a random poster apparently has, or how unsuccessful in life she must be, based on her upgrade decisions and priorities - such as waiting a while longer for more sensible GPU options instead of just grabbing what Zenbane grabs on his way home from some VR real estate showing venture or scuba vacation. Indeed, a pronounced classism coursed through many of his more personal attacks. And if someone complained about, for example, a more pronounced binocular effect with CV1 Rift than they had anticipated, such as noticing black borders often enough to be distracted or perceptually impaired, he'd blame them for their own tendency to be distracted, or even imply that they set out to be distracted by trivial things because that's how they are as pathetic human beings or because they're out to smear Oculus and help competition, instead of offering constructive advice about how to better adjust the HMD or VR software. 

I think Zenbane deserves a break from this forum but should be given another chance or two in the near future. I don't read many threads, but I often read those raising various concerns about optics since I have poor uncorrected vision (one eye with astigmatism much worse than the other, whose vision has also been fading since LASIK back in 1997) with pronounced halo effect in many life situations and have been able to enjoy VR to a limited degree only because it's possible to bring DK2 right up close to my eyeballs, and it seems that all too often discussions get derailed and demeaned by Zenbane's ungenerous intrusions. I say 'ungenerous' because he obviously is intelligent enough to see where people are coming from but seemingly refuses to grant them enough of their points to keep discussions more civil.

Edit: I initially made a typo in astigmatism and rushed to correct it before Zenbane could attack me from even his banned state and accuse me of obviously not really having an astigmatism because nobody with one would ever misspell it, and therefore I must have fabricated it. That's the essence of what I just posted about above. Attacks were so frequent and personal that even someone like me whom he's never attacked won't let his guard down.

@lukwtwz you make a good point... and I apologise for the way it's sometimes been in the forum

AndrewJ71
Heroic Explorer




I'd be in favour of unbanning them in the future. 

Zenbane, in particular, does have positive things to add to the community. But also negative ones as well. He can be very condescending and belittling towards those he disagrees with. It's unpleasant. On the other hand, he's an intelligent, active member of the community. 

i think the ideal would have been to issue a "temporary ban" of one week. Give them a "time out" to realise they need to mend their ways or risk a perma-ban. 

wickfut
Expert Protege
ha ha , the complete bellend got banned. 

the forum will now be readable once more. 

TwoHedWlf
Expert Trustee

brantlew said:


HoIIywood said:


Man, internet forums are like college campuses, a bunch of softies hiding in safe spaces.
No wonder this generation cannot function socially, they cower and run away from any sign of resistance.

Old school conversation : 

Hi,
Hello,
You're ugly,
You're fat,
Cool want to be friends?
Yes!





?

That is not at all how complete strangers meet in the real world.  Physical meetings are very restrained until people know each other well.  (only close friends comfortably insult each other like that). 


They don't?  Huh...That may explain why I have no friends.

Anonymous
Not applicable
Neither bothered me. Reading their comments was always a choice.... a choice I no longer have. Yes, I miss the glory days of the internet when it was like the wild west before it became mainstream.

jayhawk
Superstar
Atmos since he was the troll. At least Zenbane was in the right forums.

kevinw729
Honored Visionary
Wow, I wondered outside of my comfort zone of the "General" posts forum, to see why certain posters had not been their "usual self" and find out they have been banned!

As many of my topic posts had been on the Sh**tlist of those two and their supporters, you would expect me not to be unhappy they have gone, though I still will not continue with my previous posting habits as that boat has sailed following the last few months of VR trolling.

I am glad that many recognize the issue of anonymity fueling the worst aspects of posting on forums. Especially when linked to self-interest, or a megalomania to be the only voice.

I have to be mindful that as an old-hand in the VR game, I can come across as overbearing, so try and be at least respectful until insulted. But I have decided that here at the ODF I am bound to have a dissenting view on some topics so grew a thick skin. However, the antics of the aforemetioned banned individuals opened a darks side to this forum which sadly forced many of us to move on to private posting areas (as has also been seen with the troll action at Reddit).

My concern is the Sh**tposting habits of some on this and other forums; and the association with automated and fake accounts, generating bad practices. We know that the moderators across at Reddit found a considerable number of "clone" accounts during their most recent shake up - I just wonder how long it will be before we see the banned individuals try and rejoin under new accounts (or activate one of their clones?)

We understand the pressure you are under Cyberreality, and hope that you can keep the ban in place as it would send out the wrong message if they were allowed back after so many infractions and personal attacks over the months.
https://vrawards.aixr.org/ "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities" https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959

RonsonPL
Heroic Explorer
I wasn't actually visiting this forum much lately, so I don't even have a point about Atmos, since I didn't read enough of his posts, but I've read all the posts in this thread so I checked the option which includes him. I hope I'm not doing a mistake and if I do, then sorry.


Anyway, to the point:

Zenbane definitely deserved to be banned and I don't think he should be unbanned, not even after a year or two.


I cannot disagree more with arguments you people have: he was funny and intelligent.
Really?
That's enough for you? 
Also, intelligence is a not a single thing. He has a brain that works properly in some tasks, definitely, but in really important matters he was dumb at the same time.
For example:
Being aware of the world you live in. He obviously is dumb when he assumes so fast and so often wrongfully, that a forum member is an idiot which makes his (Zenbane's) superiority justified. Then he was stupid to not understand how much people can be different, how much their criteria and expectations might differ. He didn't understand it so he assumed the person with different opinion must be a complete idiot who deserves nothing but ridiculing. He also didn't understand how simple are the things that when combined into big groups of things, lead to a totally different opinion.

Then there's an argument that he was funny. Well...
Maybe that's me, cause I never could understand why in some social groups, and unfortunately even among very intelligent people (many of which I really like and respect) the best type of humor is to laugh at someone.
For 10 of Zenbane's jokes directed to other forum users (other than me, cause I want to stay objective here) 9 out ot 10 times I felt disgusted rather than entertained. I think I would really have to hate a person he's attacking to see it as a funny thing. Also, he was forcing it way too much. It was like he thinks every of his posts have to include some joke. And no two jokes can pass without being directed at someone else.

So yeah, I can admit, he's intelligent. I can agree that he can be a little useful for the forum, if more than one other person says that, and I can agree that if any person is not dumb and tries joking so much, it's inevitable that some jokes will actually be funny (I think I laughed 2-3x while reading/watching his jokes). 


But I don't think why the standards should be so low that even being intelligent and funny is enough, when there are so many downsides coming from troll presence on the forum.

I've said it so many times in multiple threads: people like him, but especially him, were the reason why the atmosphere/vibe on this forum got so bad, like medically ill. It made old users posts/visit less and made new users not want to join the discussions or create threads.

So, to people who want to unban him:

- Do you really think most people here are not intelligent, so just the fact that Zenbane is, makes him special and worthy? Maybe try 3D Vision forum. (My jaw dropped when I saw the poll-thread there. Most of guys posting there were on the universities, are successful business/art people etc. and overall the highest bar in terms of intelligence. And you know why I don't think those were just "typical internet fakes"? Because you can clearly see how the discussions looks like there. Unusually high level of mutual respect and no less unusual tendency to discuss with friendly attitude even if both persons stayed with their initial opinion. This is how really intelligent people talk. Of course there are exceptions but most people who are there from a long time, people who are constantly active, are like I described them. I can easily believe all the info their provided about their lives. )

- How can you judge if you didn't see what has been deleted?

- How do you estimate other people's opinions if they didn't visit this poll or abandoned this forum long ago due to Zenbane's activity and self-propelling group of people who cheered Zenbane like boys cheer their friend who fights some other boy at the school fight? 
- Do you think getting a few laughs is equally important as amount of activity of many other users in important discussions?

- Do you think the fact you might happen to be in the group that shares Zenbane's opinions, doesn't influence your verdict? How can you judge how much bad things come up from what Zenbane writes, if you were never the one he directed his *cough* intelligent jokes at? Not even in terms of wheter it was funny or not, but also you could easily do a mistake of believing the image that Zenbane had drawn, you might think he attacts, but he has a point, when he actually didn't have and just used an assumption coming from twisting what he adversary wrote.

- Don't you realize that the type of activity that Zenbane showed in so many threads change the type of activity people think is the norm? Think about how many more threads derail into interpersonal fights territory just because whoever started that, thought it's the norm to act like this, because Zenbane did it, and was praised for it by others.
This doesn't affect old people that much, but it could take (to ruin the forum atmosphere) as little as 3-4 young people who don't have so much experience in "being active a lot on a forum", who might think this is the way, especially since so many things around are just like it nowadays. 
This is like a cancer. It spreads. It poisons the forum body.
Forums can be magical, can be something really great. But this "magic" can only happen when there are no personal attacks, will to "agree to disagree", and then it can happen - you end up with a place where people discuss among each other, where everyone is connected by the same passion (here: VR), everyone can share the joy of discovery, report on the new awesome thing (for example: hey guys! I finally got Touch, let's talk about how awesome it is and how much more awesome it can become in the future generations), but also share fears and disappointment. Any fanboism, oversimplifying, generalizing and sticking labels onto people, can ruin this "magic".

Zenbane was a poison to this forum. As every troll is. It's becoming more and more "oldschool" to have a place for discussions free of idiotic hate. The younger the participants are, the more aggressive and poisoned it is. Let's keep this forum "old-school". Like tech-forums were 15 years ago. Enyone remembers Stereovision.net? Let's be more like Stereovision.net, not like Youtube comment section.
Let's not unban Zenbane. 

PS. lukwtwz made a good point. 
Not an Oculus hater, but not a fan anymore. Still lots of respect for the team-Carmack, Abrash. Oculus is driven by big corporation principles now. That brings painful effects already, more to come in the future. This is not the Oculus I once cheered for.