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Are Tracking Pucks coming to Oculus? Why is Vive so ahead of the game?

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  • Mr.CreepyMr.Creepy Posts: 792
    Neo
    edited June 2017
    I'll respond more in depth later, but for now I'll just say that I know about the technologies you are talking about, I have great interest in science. Those technologies are impressive but no where near being able to handle the complexities of complete full body movement.
  • elbofforelboffor Posts: 2,572 Valuable Player
    I know I've said this before, but jesus christ Zenbane you sound exactly like Palmer Luckey  (which we all know is your true identity)
    This is my forum signature.
    There are many others like it, but this is mine.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,155 Valuable Player
    edited June 2017
    Mr.Creepy said:
    I'll respond more in depth later, but for now I'll just say that I know about the technologies you are talking about, I have great interest in science. Those technologies are impressive but no where near being able to handle the complexities of complete full body movement.
    Happy to have an (insult-free) discussion with you buddy.

    When you return, keep in my that my stance is not to put one VR Ideology over another. I am merely acknowledging that there are two entirely different camps. One demands body presence, the other is waiting for the ongoing evolution of VR, where the mind integrates much more strongly. And I only pointed it out in response to the OP's question, since the Tracking Pucks cater to only one VR camp.

    As @elboffor so elequantly implied, mind-control is a vision shared by both Palmer and Zuckerberg. There are recent articles where Zuckerberg discusses this type of thing. And there are folks who call him a Sci-Fi freak for believing any of it.

    Lastly, even if you are right in that we will not be able to simulate complete body movement in VR using just our minds... I'm okay with that; as long as the software is so unique that the lack of body movement is completely irrelevant.

    Games like Darknet and Annie Amber come to mind.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,503 Valuable Player
    Yeah, well. There isn't a machine out there capable enough to handle my kind of brain power. Even the most powerful computers in the world would start to melt once they got even a taste of my vast inteligunce.

     B) 
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • elbofforelboffor Posts: 2,572 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    Yeah, well. There isn't a machine out there capable enough to handle my kind of brain power. Even the most powerful computers in the world would start to melt once they got even a taste of my vast inteligunce.

     B) 


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    There are many others like it, but this is mine.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,503 Valuable Player
    Get your stinkin' hands off me you damn dirty human!  B)
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • Mr.CreepyMr.Creepy Posts: 792
    Neo
    edited June 2017
    Zenbane said:

    The point is that I don't want our bodies in VR because that is limiting. Besides, as the science is currently showing, the same brain commands that are used to move our bodies can be sent to a computer. Right now. Today. So it's already happening in our lifetime:
    Paralysed man moves arm using power of thought in world first

    A man who was paralysed from below the neck after crashing his bike into a truck can once again drink a cup of coffee and eat mashed potato with a fork, after a world-first procedure to allow him to control his hand with the power of thought.
    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/mar/28/neuroprosthetic-tetraplegic-man-control-hand-with-thought-bill-kochevar
    Yes, this is quite impressive, it's still a pretty simple endouverment compared to moving a whole body with all the joints moving intertangably, with fine precision. Here is a quote from the article. 

    “However, this treatment is not nearly ready for use outside the lab. The movements were rough and slow and required continuous visual feedback, as is the case for most available brain–machine interfaces, and had restricted range due to the use of a motorised device to assist shoulder movements … Thus, the study is a proof-of-principle demonstration of what is possible, rather than a fundamental advance in neuroprosthetic concepts or technology. But it is an exciting demonstration nonetheless, and the future of motor neuroprosthetics to overcome paralysis is brighter.”

    Now you can choose to be optimistic about this, but there is no guarantee of this being as good as it should be to compete with the natural movements of a non crippled and healthy individual, within your lifetime. In fact I find it highly unlikely, but let's see, I'll be surprised if I see that in my lifetime.

    Zenbane said:

    Mr.Creepy said:
    Science is governed by the mind? Wow what a statement, and your point is?
    The existence of science in our world is made possible because of the mind; because the mind is limitless. That's the point.


    Mr.Creepy said:

    I don't want to escape gravity, I like gravity, you act like there is some higher purpose to escaping the real world, and there isn't, or if there is please do enlighten me.
    The "real world" is planet Earth, and the Earth will die one day when our Sun explodes. Humankind needs to find a new galaxy to exist in so that we can live on as a species. But that's all besides the point, I'm talking about Virtual Reality as a means to transcend existing reality.
    I am in this case the "real world" was just meant as the physical world, you know reality. So I'm talking about the same as you and you didn't answer my question. What are the benefits to trancending existing reality? Enlightenment? It's just a personal wish as far as I see, you achieve a personal goal. I would not say that you shouldn't invent a brain intereface because that hinders physical virtual reality where you use your own body. A lot of people don't want to modify their brain so extensively to have some fun once in a while.  Now of course brain interfaces are developed anyway, not because of virtual reality specifically.

    Zenbane said:

    I like gravity as well, but I don't spend a few thousand dollars on a computer just so that I can experience more gravity. I like flying fighter jets in outer space with games like Eve Valkyrie. I like fighting dragons in games like Chronos. Someday I would like to "be" the dragon, not the human. And I want to control the dragon's movements with my mind; I don't want to simulate being a dragon with my physical body, because arms are not the same thing as wings; plus humans don't have tails.
    Ok, I'll have to admit there are some cool possibilites there, but that won't happen in neither mine or your lifetime either way. Unless you can truly become, it's not interesting, it would have to feel real. Otherwise I might as well be just playing as a dragon. This is really advanced technology that is needed here, who can make anything other than guesses as to how quickly this will happen? You can hope though.

    Zenbane said:
    Mr.Creepy said:

    My body can't make a dream, but I couldn't dream if I didn't have a body. Can your mind do a backflip? Yes, with help from the body it can
    My mind can do a backflip on Planet Mars. Your body cannot ;)

    Also, people who are paralyzed from the neck down still dream. Because the mind doesn't need the body to dream.


    You must be into lucid dreaming if your mind can do a backflip on mars, and even then it would just be your imagination of how mars is. If you mean with the right technology, then you are still waiting for it, and you'd have to simulate mars athmosphere, or lack thereof, the temperature, dust particles, scan the entire landscape, have physics simulation that covers each individual grain of dust that is there and every particle of the ground. Quite extreme.


    Zenbane said:
    Mr.Creepy said:

    Also the mind is limited by the laws of physics, since the brain is limited by the law of physics.
    Care to elaborate? Are you talking about the law of physics that keeps the brain physically resting in the skull? Because I'm talking about how the mind works... and the mind is in no way limited by the law of physics:

    Your brain is part of the visible, tangible world of the body. Your mind is part of the invisible, transcendent world of thought, feeling, attitude, belief and imagination. The brain is the physical organ most associated with mind and consciousness, but the mind is not confined to the brain.

    https://www.google.com/#q=brain+vs+mind

    Key phrase here: the mind is not confined to the brain.

    Like I said, the body is limited but the mind is limitless.
    You can only imagine what your mind has capacity to imagine, I get the sense you disagree, but tell me is this science or some kind of philosophical debate then? Your mind is physical limited by the travel time of the signals passing through neurons and the number of neurons you have, isn't it? If you had 4 times the brain neurons wouldn't your mind have expanded capacity? If were scaling intelligence with it, not just making it bigger of course.

    Zenbane said:
    Happy to have an (insult-free) discussion with you buddy.

    When you return, keep in my that my stance is not to put one VR Ideology over another. I am merely acknowledging that there are two entirely different camps. One demands body presence, the other is waiting for the ongoing evolution of VR, where the mind integrates much more strongly. And I only pointed it out in response to the OP's question, since the Tracking Pucks cater to only one VR camp.
    Well, you said that you tend to fll into the category of those who want full mind immersion, and that you found these technologies that makes use of the body limiting. Which suggest that you don't really want them, and that makes me wonder if you think a gamepad is the best way of experiencing VR? I definately think VR with hands and preferably  the rest of the body is the most immersive way to play and the most realistic.
  • ZoomieZoomie Posts: 1,777 Valuable Player
    While the show had issues with pacing and (I personally feel) wasted a ton of amazing potential in the concept, Sword Art Online had some insightful moments.  One of them was when the main character joined a VR MMO where the characters all had wings.  In essence he had to learn to control a part of the body that our brains are not wired to control.

    The funny thing is that science already knows this can happen.  Blind people get surgery or an implant and the brain learns to process the information.  People who have a stroke learn to control their body with the remaining brain cells not damaged by the stroke.  This is a known thing.

    So how interesting would it be to give someone four arms in VR.  How about wings?  
    Now imagine how strange it would be to return to the real world, and realize your brain is trying to control limbs that aren't there anymore.
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    - Arthur C Clarke
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,155 Valuable Player
    edited June 2017
    Mr.Creepy said:
    Yes, this is quite impressive, it's still a pretty simple endouverment compared to moving a whole body with all the joints moving intertangably, with fine precision.
    Yes we are not 100% there yet, but we are moving in that direction. That's my point.

    Just as VR is moving forward to increase immersion (e.g., better resolution, better FoV), so is brain-to-brain interface technology moving closer and closer to mind control precision.

    To quote Zoomie:
    The funny thing is that science already knows this can happen.  Blind people get surgery or an implant and the brain learns to process the information.  People who have a stroke learn to control their body with the remaining brain cells not damaged by the stroke.  This is a known thing


    Mr. Creepy said:
    What are the benefits to trancending existing reality? Enlightenment?
    What are the benefits of developing a persons physical strengths? To defend Sparta? :p

    I don't know about Enlightenment, but each person has their own goals when trying to experience an alternate reality. Virtual Reality is just another form of alternate reality. And most of your arguments don't just rally against "mind control," but if we really analyze everything you are saying... you appear to be arguing against what VR accomplishes altogether: Why bother making games like Star Trek and Arizona Sunshine? Flying with space aliens is fiction, and zombies aren't real. Anyone who plays these games in VR is in fact transcending existing reality.

    And why do I care more about the mind that the body? Probably because in todays world the accomplishments of the human mind are what advances our society, globally, far beyond what is capable by just being physically powerful. We aren't barbarians anymore. We have cars, planes, boats, and computers. We don't have people carrying rocks to build pyramids, we have vehicles building skycrapers, all of which were designed and manufactured by engineers (thinkers).

    I do believe in balance. Things like health and fitness, and overall wellness, are important.  They are not mandatory, but a balanced life can have value. Of course, I'd rather be outside swimming or listening to Pandora while jogging when it comes to that. I've never been a fan of sweating inside an electronic helmet. But to each their own.

    Mr. Creepy said:
    Ok, I'll have to admit there are some cool possibilites there, but that won't happen in neither mine or your lifetime either way.

    There are VR titles right now, today, that let me do some of the things I'm talking about. And if it is happening today, then I do believe that counts as "in this lifetime" right? Both Darknet and Annie Amber are two completely different experiences, and both allow me to engage in the environment and accomplish tasks using mostly my mind. There are other VR titles where the entire experience is completely hands-free.

    I said I wanted to be a dragon and you said "not in this lifetime," but I was able to see the point of view of a dragon with Mythos of the World Axis. The software programming ability exists today that would allow all of us to achieve the things you say "wont happen in our lifetime."

    So on one hand we have you saying "not in this lifetime," and on the other hand we have the owner of Oculus and Facebook saying:

    Mark Zuckerberg has unveiled Facebook's augmented reality system - and confirmed rumours the firm is developing a 'mind control' brain interface.

    He also hinted at the firm's more distant future, confirming rumours it is developing a radical mind reading computer interface - and promised more details on the project 'soon'.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4422436/Mark-Zuckerberg-confirms-Facebook-s-brain-interface.html

    I plan to be alive for at least another 40 years... I'm pretty sure we will see this somewhere in that time-frame.


    Mr. Creepy said:
    Your mind is physical limited by the travel time of the signals passing through neurons and the number of neurons you have, isn't it?

    You are still lumping the brain with the mind in order to limit the minds abilities based on the limitations of the physical brain; but that is simply not a valid reflection of what the mind is nor how it works.


    Well, you said that you tend to fll into the category of those who want full mind immersion, and that you found these technologies that makes use of the body limiting. Which suggest that you don't really want them, and that makes me wonder if you think a gamepad is the best way of experiencing VR?

    Indeed I do! I made a post about this not too long ago:

    https://forums.oculus.com/community/discussion/52973/touch-vs-gamepad-whats-your-verdict/p1


    A gamepad is currently the most non-intrusive way to control "myself" in a VR world. It's the closest I can get to "mind control" until the real thing happens. Which I'm hoping will be in this lifetime lol

    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • JimmyMcVideoJimmyMcVideo Posts: 15
    NerveGear
    Maybe it'd be cool to live entirely in the mind, like Neo in the Matrix.  Or it might end up being a complete hell, like Neo in the Matrix. 

    Personally, I think cutting out our sense of touch would be taking a big step backwards. 
  • Fri13Fri13 Posts: 56
    Hiro Protagonist
    nalex66 said:
    I think body tracking is an eventual goal for most VR hardware platforms, but I don't think pucks are the answer. I expect that Oculus will eventually have a camera-based body tracking system. (Didn't they acquire the team that developed Kinect?)

    I'm envisioning a system where we use Touch controllers for precise tracking and input, and a camera-based system (either the same constellation camera that does the device tracking, or an additional 3D vision camera) to do full body tracking with no additional "wearables" required.

    The body tracking may not be as precise as the head and hand tracking, but I don't think it really needs to be. We can live with a little float in our virtual elbows and knees, and the more precise tracking of our heads and hands can probably be used to help fine-tune the body data if necessary.
    The body tracking will eventually be required, but as you say not so accurate as we alreay have the controllers in hands that are most important ones (controls + tracking same time, even if we would just have a tracking without controllers the controllers would be required so better have them there) but before that camera system, Oculus could just a release a "body tracker" set for cheap price, or open something up that anyone could just put together if so wanted. 

    A small stickers/clippers that you can place somewhere, where is a one or two IR leds. Just need to place those two few places like ankle, knee, elbow and shoulder. Two IR to right side and single to left side. So the system can detect which side is visible.
    The shoulders wouldn't be really required as the elbows will tell that what direction you are facing, as well the height of the elbow that way. And then if something would be on knee it would tell which knee is up and which is down on floor (otherwise body posture like kneeling or crawling is possible get from the headset) and then knees and elbows with controllers would allow to see is the person leaning forward and how much. 

    Enough to get the 3D modeled avatar in the game to be nicely tracked. 
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 4,153 Valuable Player
    edited July 2017
    Having some easy-to-use, easy-to-integrate trackers like the Vive tracker seems highly critical to advancing this medium, in my opinion. 
    Is Oculus working on its own tracking puck like this?!  https://www.vive.com/us/vive-tracker/

    Virtual reality is currently only halfway to amazing, in my opinion. Sure it LOOKS real and immersive. But does it FEEL that way (touch wise)?  The ability to utilize (hopefully multiple) trackers to match visuals with real world objects seems like it should be an absolute priority in this world.   
    i like some of the 3rd party stuff for the vive on a purely conceptual level, but for my personal wants and needs i just want a hmd to do exactly what the base vive and rift do.  Everything else is cool, but damn its expensive.

    the money paid on making it wireless, getting the extra trackers,, upgrading the head mounting system, buying knuckles (and lets hope they are not as expensive as the wands!!! :O ) imo is better for most people to put that cash to 1 side towards an entirely new 2nd generation unit which will hopefully have all this as standard.

    otherwise you could end up paying an extra £500 and still only end up having a 1st generation device under it all which will be largely obsolete in 18 months time when vive 2 / CV2 launches with it all in the box,  AND perhaps with twin 2k screens to boot.

    as for the "ahead of the game"... how do you even know? just because oculus are not releasing stuff does NOT mean they are not working on stuff.

    oculus demoed inside out tracking long before the rumoured inside out tracked stand alone vive HMD.

    i believe i have also seen images of........ zukerberg i think it was..... using some hepatic glove type device.

    It is safe to assume imo that there is other stuff banging around in the oculus design labs which we have not even seen yet either.

    edit
    i just saw the age of the thread and seems i already posted somethign similar. at least i am consistent :D
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • SharpfishSharpfish Posts: 1,303
    Neo
    edited July 2017
    the money paid on making it wireless, getting the extra trackers,, upgrading the head mounting system, buying knuckles (and lets hope they are not as expensive as the wands!!! :O ) imo is better for most people to put that cash to 1 side towards an entirely new 2nd generation unit which will hopefully have all this as standard.

    This. Throwing good money after.... bad isn't the answer. 

    I do like that on the Vive side they are pushing things a bit, for the experimental guys who want to play around with the tech, but much of it isn't ready for prime time nor of much use to anyone until adopted as standard. What I do like is that it forces other companies to take things more seriously, sooner, to keep up (wireless for example).

    One thing that many vivers see as positive though is that HTC release these things (and valve soon with Knuckles) but there seems very little plan-of-action or reasoning behind releasing it for general people to buy other than to make even more money off people. The biggest P-take is the deluxe audio strap. Ok so the audio side does cost and nobody promised built in phones at launch on the vive, but comfort and ergonomics were terrible on the vive (esp vs rift and PSVR) so they should have made a strap without the headphones and bundled it in as standard and offer them cheaply to owners to upgrade. given the prices of the wands and base stations it just seems HTC is trying to take all the cash it can from its punters with very little pride in its base product or even a sense of 'ownership of the problems' it created by essentially rushing an unfinished dev kit to market to beat oculus. Valve clearly have some blame in that too. I know valve and oculus have 'issues' and was on Valve's side for much of it, but hindsight shows that valve's win was at the expense of the hundreds of thousands of people who bought a vive assuming at least the base quality/customer support/ergonomics of a finished product. It seems increasingly that Valve's only goal was to beat rift at all cost, and never mind the customer footing the bill for expensive replacements, dodgy trackpads, dying base stations and esp lack of quality Vive / Steam VR software directly linked with valve. Their games are probably going to be out by gen 2... or 5. ;)

    For all of facebook's inherent faults elsewhere in the company, with the rift it's clear they have put 110% into the package and the product and have reduced prices and paid for/driven up quality of software to seed the VR industry. I know facebook aren't doing it for the good of humanity, it's facebook, but what are HTC doing exactly other than selling sub-par consumer product STILL at double the price knowing full well it has many weak spots and expensive spares + a janky strap/ergonomics that they should be ashamed of after checking out PSVR and Rift (and not bundling DAS or a similar cheaper strap). 

    I think if HTC had any morals they would withdraw Vive from sale immediately and stop nickle and diming customers at that stupid price and at least wait till they address all the problems and deliver a much better gen 2. Hopefully LG, if not oculus, will light a fire under their ass or it's game over for HTC come next gen. Pepperidge farm rem... oh never mind. ;)

    EX DK2, EX VIVE, EX PSVR, Currently RIFT CV1 | VR developer
    Poster of the week who never got a T-Shirt ;( dayum they looked tasty!
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,503 Valuable Player
    Unfortunately HTC don't have much choice in the matter, they have to 'nickel and dime' customers if they want to keep their lights on. Their financial position is one of the many reasons why I got a Rift instead of a Vive. I'm convinced that their Vive sales and Viveport subscriptions are the only things keeping them in business. They have to be making a decent profit on every Vive sold right now, but expect a permanent price cut of around $100 before Christmas.

    Mind you, when they do that we'll probably see the Rift coming down in a Christmas sale in November/December back to $400 again, with that $400 price cut being permanent early next year...so around Christmas we'll see the Rift being $300 cheaper and going back to 'only' $200 cheaper until early next year (probably April or May) when it will go back to being $300 cheaper permanently.

    And HTC will also be screwed when the LG headset originally releases too because LG make their own displays so they'll save a good few quid on the displays for their headset, meaning it'll also be cheaper than the Vive.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • JimmyMcVideoJimmyMcVideo Posts: 15
    NerveGear
    I'd like to revive this thread :)

    Even though I like the Oculus Touch controllers WAY more than Vive's controllers, I'm half-tempted to dump Oculus so I can start using Tracker-leveraged  games that are finally starting to roll out on Vive. I'm just getting impatient. 

    I do like what I'm seeing from Cloud Gate, using 3 trackers to render out a full body experience. I agree with what the guy says in this video. This kind of thing is a game changer:



    Meanwhile, as with the Wii, sports games are a perfect playground for trackers. I am blown away by the realistic physics in ELEVEN (the Table Tennis game) and Racket Fury isn't to bad either. I play table tennis in the real world, and these games would provide a great way to play at home and train to be a better player IF we could actually play with an actual paddle. An attached tracker puck could enable that, or (in Guitar Hero fashion) an actual paddle with a tracker embedded in the handle. I think ELEVEN is working on enabling Vive trackers.

    I firmly believe, trackers combined with the right games are going to take VR to a whole new level and draw in more users of this technology. 

    So, I await the killer apps that are going to open people's eyes, and hope that one day, each Oculus Touch package will include, say, 3 trackers pucks. 


  • JimmyMcVideoJimmyMcVideo Posts: 15
    NerveGear
    The price isn't going to drop 'til either there's more demand or there's an obvious killer app and a CEO (like Zuckerberg) takes a leap of faith on it. I do think they should take a leap of faith. 

    Meanwhile, here are trackers being used with the amazing Infinadeck:  
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,503 Valuable Player
    Is HTC making and selling these things, I can't remember? If Valve are making and selling these things don't expect the price to come down because Valve are a bunch of cunts. And if HTC are making and selling these things don't expect the price to come down because Valve's licencing fees are over the top because Valve are a bunch of cunts.

    Tldr; The price won't come down because Valve are a bunch of cunts  :D
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • JimmyMcVideoJimmyMcVideo Posts: 15
    NerveGear
    I didn't realize they had a ping pong paddle already.  I think I'm going to move to Vive. 

     https://www.vive.com/us/VR-racket-sports-set-with-tracker/


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