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The problem with multiplayer

cybernettr
Superstar
 I was an echo arena last night and I noticed an interesting phenomenon going on: major segregation according to age.  There were a lot of kids in the game, which was obvious from their voices, and they were giggling and laughing and playing around and obviously having a lot of fun, but they were mainly staying in the reception area (or whatever it's called).  

They were huddling around, forming trains by grabbing each other's legs, and generally goofing off, but they weren't playing any of the actual competitive games, as far as I could tell.  I heard one of the older players even say "Wow, kids!" as he scurried off to another area.  I even heard one of the kids saying that he enjoys waiting for newbies to coming to the game so he could pester and confuse them. 

 I thought this was just the general frivolous nature of being a young kid, but after thinking about it, it occurred to me that a possible reason for this is quite different: a young kid simply cannot compete with the greater hand-eye coordination of an older player.  I can understand why. I'm far from a kid, and yet I went into the gaming arena and simply could not begin to keep up with some of the more skilled players there.  

I enjoy the ambience and atmosphere of VR, but I'm not a natural born gamer and I never will be, no matter how much I practice.  I actually prefer playing against an AI, which can be tuned to your specific skill level, rather than a random player whose skill level probably does not come close your own.  

And this, I think, is the problem with multiplayer.  Unless you arrange a meet up with people you know, you are not likely to get much satisfaction from playing against a random stranger. 
53 REPLIES 53

Zenbane
MVP
MVP



SnackyAU said:

I remember i was playing a very competitive game.. i used to get so damn frustrated .. WHY can't i beat these people? Is it luck? are they just older more experienced players at the game.. what is it? Turns out that i was so focused on what the skill gap was and not on my own mistakes. Once you do that no skill gap is too big


 I disagree. There's no way to discount the matter of inborn talent. Some people are just more talented at certain games than others, just as some are more talented the cooking, or drawing or needlework. 


That sounds good in theory, but I agree with SnackyAU. Once you decide to focus on honing your own skills then the "gap" can be covered quite easily. It is especially true if you focus on making your weaknesses another one of your strengths.

Let's take the "Jordan vs Lebron" debate. I'm a Jordan fan, and while he certainly has natural talent, throughout his years he made it very clear that he practiced excessively since his childhood years.

A good writeup about Jordan's views on the "born vs made" idea:
One particular element of his answer struck me, and stayed in my memory: that people tended to think of him as a great natural athlete. What bothered him about this perception was that it somehow underestimated all the hard work he did to become the outstanding player he became.

When Phil Jackson, former coach of Michael Jordan’s Chicago Bulls, describes this star player’s work ethic, he speaks with admiration of Jordan’s drive, his desire to improve every day in practice. Jackson says that Michael would simply exercise with greater concentration than anyone else, that he would work himself “into a lather” with his intensity, and that he would push himself ever harder whenever things got more difficult. Even when he had become the premier player in the game, he rarely took a day off from his demanding practice routine.

http://www.johnsadowsky.com/a-message-from-michael-jordan-on-talent-and-practice/

In contrast, Lebron is trying to become "the next Jordan" but having a hard time getting public acknowledgement. Lebron was born with some natural gifts (he's a huge dude) and there are some other natural talents as well. But he has not even come close to becoming a Legend the status of Jordan... cause hard work vs talent makes the difference. Lebron is trying to fill "Jordan's shoes," not the other way around. Jordan created a larger gap due to hard work.


Or for you Anime fans... Neji from Naruto is a character who believes that natural born talent is tied to destiny, "You thought you could success through hard work alone. That’s just an illusion."

But then Naruto who was born with almost no real talent whooped Neji's arse in the episode titled, "A Failure's True Power"

"I told you, I just don’t know when to give up."
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJDjOw0ern8


Neji never advances much throughout the 20 years of the show. He simply hones his skills as best he can based on his natural born talents. Whereas Naruto becomes near godlike when compared to Neji, as Naruto's hard work elevates him to a status unattainable by most.

Just saying 😛

Shadowmask72
Honored Visionary
:star: for the Naruto reference.


System Specs: MSI NVIDIA RTX 4090 , i5 13700K CPU, 32GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 11 64 Bit OS.

RorschachPhoeni
Trustee

falken76 said:

This "Multiplayer" problem reared it's ugly head around 1991 when Street Fighter 2 hit the scene.  In the beginning it was all good and fun because it was new to everyone, including the casual gamer that was used to the one button arcade games of yesteryear at that point.  As time went on, people started getting better and better at this game, competition with peers became the draw of the game.  Then the people that got great at it were the same people you'd see at 7-11, Circle-K, Golf 'n Stuff, the local arcade playing the game no matter what time of day you strolled into the establishment.  They put hundreds of hours into the game and that segment of players caused the casual gamer to lose interest, who wants to put a quarter into a game and compete against the nerd with no life that spent the last 23 hours playing the game?

This process has increased 100 fold today, now I can't even enjoy a game of Street Fighter V if it has any online opponent because the people that like it enough to pay for the game spend so much time playing it they're just so good that it makes me never want to play the game.  I have no desire to practice for hours on end like they all do so I am unable to enjoy the game unless there actually is a single player portion to the game.  In the late 90s, games seemed to gravitate towards multiplayer until at some point single player was not a main focus.  I gave up on games at that point, VR brought me back to them, but when this VR stuff goes mainstream and it's adopted by the average consumer I suspect I'll run into the same problem yet again and the rift will then be boxed up and hardly used because it is no longer "fun" to me.


Back in the days I was used to play multiplayer games with my friends a lot. They came over with their bulky PCs and monitors and we played the whole night via lan cable. We've played a lot of multiplayer games: Command & Conquer, Total Annihilation, Age of Empires, Duke Nukem 3D, Quake 3 Arena, Unreal Tournament (the first one), Counter-Strike (the Original), Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 and some others.

I never got used to play games via internet with people I don't knew. I've played games to have some fun. At some point playing games in multiplayer (especially with people you don't knew) over the internet was no fun at all.
I remember playing Counter-Strike over the internet and got killed immediately (1-2 seconds) after respawn. Every time. That was no fun at all. And then you had your "Team members" which were some rude kids. They called you motherfucker and kicked you out of a game when your "performance" wasn't good enough.

Nowadays multiplayer gaming is no gaming anymore (at least for me), it is not even a sport, it is more like work. And maybe not even that. Feels more like being in a street gang or the mafia or something like that.

Always loosing in a game makes no fun. Get verbally beaten up by your socalled "friends" or team members makes even less fun. Therefore I focussed on single player games and I am still avoid playing multiplayer games till then. I am playing against AI, because the AI does not kick you out of a game when you're trying to have some fun.
Excuse my bad english. I speak to you through the google translator. 😛

cybernettr
Superstar

Zenbane said:

That sounds good in theory, but I agree with SnackyAU. Once you decide to focus on honing your own skills then the "gap" can be covered quite easily. It is especially true if you focus on making your weaknesses another one of your strengths.


 Wait a minute, Zenbane, in a thread on Oculus Medium, you yourself said you didn't use it because you were "not an artist." By the reasoning you just articulated, if you merely focused on your weakness of "not being an artist" by practicing a little, you could easily turn sculpting into one of your "strengths" and quickly rival that of any of the top Medium artists here on this forum!  😄

Zenbane
MVP
MVP
Yes that is 100% correct cybernettr!

I lack the motivation to hone my artistic skills when it comes to drawing, painting, and sculpting. In my case, I am content having honed my skills as a musician (guitar), as I mentioned here:

https://forums.oculus.com/community/discussion/comment/485968/#Comment_485968
After that, I graduated to mastering instrumentals from Metallica: Call of Ktulu, Orion, To Live is To Die.

Probably my biggest accomplishment was learning "For the Love of God" by Steve Vai,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IrWyZ0KZuk


I
think it took me about 2 years of practice, off and on, to get through
that song start to finish. I retired from learning hard shit after that


We all have a choice, which is the point.

Just because you face someone with natural talent(s) doesn't mean hard work can't overcome. But you have to make that choice.

cybernettr
Superstar
You must be a blast in Rock Band VR! That doesn't change the fact that you can't polish a turd, and all the practice in the world its not going to make you good at something you have no talent at.  

Besides that, why put all your time and effort into mastering a dumb game?  Most people are not going to make any money doing that. You are never going to earn a living from it.

Plus, there are hundreds of great games out there. Are you going to spend all your time trying to master one game instead of having fun enjoying all that the world of gaming has to offer?

Even if you devoted all your time to one game, there's no way  you could do the same thing with all the other hundred games out there you would like to master. There just aren't enough hours in the day. Plus, an AI will come along eventually and beat all human players anyway (just like in chess, checkers, Go, Jeopardy, Space Invaders, Doom, Texas Hold 'Em Poker, etc. etc.).  😄

 If it's just a matter of practice, I would prefer to devote my time to Oculus Medium, because then I would have something to show for all that work.

Just sayin'

RorschachPhoeni
Trustee

Zenbane said:

Yes that is 100% correct cybernettr!

I lack the motivation to hone my artistic skills when it comes to drawing, painting, and sculpting. In my case, I am content having honed my skills as a musician (guitar), as I mentioned here:

https://forums.oculus.com/community/discussion/comment/485968/#Comment_485968
After that, I graduated to mastering instrumentals from Metallica: Call of Ktulu, Orion, To Live is To Die.

Probably my biggest accomplishment was learning "For the Love of God" by Steve Vai,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IrWyZ0KZuk


I
think it took me about 2 years of practice, off and on, to get through
that song start to finish. I retired from learning hard shit after that


We all have a choice, which is the point.

Just because you face someone with natural talent(s) doesn't mean hard work can't overcome. But you have to make that choice.

Passion is also a thing though. I had tried to learn playing guitar for a year or two. End of story. 😄
I've took lessons once a week. But I just couldn't do it. There were other guys that could play guitar in a month. I couldn't do it in a year. It was like learning math. Sometimes you can learn and learn, but if you can't wrap your head around it, at some point you have to stop wasting your time with false dreams of becoming a rock star.
Excuse my bad english. I speak to you through the google translator. 😛

Zenbane
MVP
MVP


You must be a blast in Rock Band VR! That doesn't change the fact that you can't polish a turd


Your argument is that you "cant polish a turd" ??

lmao - that's not a real thing, and it's certainly not a fact.

Every human starts off a turd. A slimy, screaming, helpless little mammal. Then we go to school and learn stuff. Which means... turds are getting polished. It's always awkward when you say things like, "can't change the fact" and then you follow with a non-factual metaphor. You do it in every debate lol

Reminds me of those folks who misuse the phrase "literally" when they really mean "figuratively." Like, "I'm literally drowning right now," when they are just sitting in the living room talking about their life problems, and nowhere near water 😄



Besides that, why put all your time and effort into mastering a dumb game?  Most people are not going to make any money doing that. You are never going to earn a living from it.



I'm not one to try to earn a living playing video games... but there are people making quite a bit of money doing it. So again, you aren't really referring to anything factual:
https://www.esportsearnings.com/games

Over $100 million for DoTa 2; 41 million for Leage of Legends; 35 million for Counter-Strike; 23 million for StarCraft II.

Zenbane
MVP
MVP

RorschachPhoenix said:
Passion is also a thing though. I had tried to learn playing guitar for a year or two. End of story. 😄
I've
took lessons once a week. But I just couldn't do it. There were other
guys that could play guitar in a month. I couldn't do it in a year. It
was like learning math. Sometimes you can learn and learn, but if you
can't wrap your head around it, at some point you have to stop wasting
your time with false dreams of becoming a rock star.


There's a few different things going on in all that. First, being a Rock
Star has nothing to do with being a talented musician. Some of the best
musicians in the world are not part of mainstream stardom. And
historically, many mainstream "rockstars" aren't even real musicians.

Second,
how many hours each day did you actually commit to learning the guitar?
Did you practice until your fingers bled in between your "once a week"
classes?

I was terrible at the guitar when I first tried. I
didn't even understand how to "tune" it. The idea of a "chord" or
"scale" was completely over my head. But I had my Metallica and Megadeth
albums that I listened to repeatedly... and as you said, passion plays a role. I refused to allow my ignorance to prevent me from eventually learning how to sound like my Metal icons. It took hundreds of frustrating hours, and then one day it all "clicked."

In your story you mention a once a week class followed by giving up. That's not a story of "hard work," that's a story of someone who "dabbled" for 2 years and then stopped dabbling. Simply "trying" and doing the bare minimum, or even average amount, isn't the same thing as hard work. The term "hard work" typically equates to things like: blood, sweat, and tears.

Quick Addendum:
I hope that doesn't sound like I'm chastising. I'm just trying to distinguish between "trying" vs "hard work." In fact, I have no doubt that you could have mastered the guitar if you had chosen to bleed for it @RorschachPhoenix

RorschachPhoeni
Trustee

Zenbane said:


RorschachPhoenix said:
Passion is also a thing though. I had tried to learn playing guitar for a year or two. End of story. 😄
I've
took lessons once a week. But I just couldn't do it. There were other
guys that could play guitar in a month. I couldn't do it in a year. It
was like learning math. Sometimes you can learn and learn, but if you
can't wrap your head around it, at some point you have to stop wasting
your time with false dreams of becoming a rock star.


There's a few different things going on in all that. First, being a Rock
Star has nothing to do with being a talented musician. Some of the best
musicians in the world are not part of mainstream stardom. And
historically, many mainstream "rockstars" aren't even real musicians.

Second,
how many hours each day did you actually commit to learning the guitar?
Did you practice until your fingers bled in between your "once a week"
classes?

I was terrible at the guitar when I first tried. I
didn't even understand how to "tune" it. The idea of a "chord" or
"scale" was completely over my head. But I had my Metallica and Megadeth
albums that I listened to repeatedly... and as you said, passion plays a role. I refused to allow my ignorance to prevent me from eventually learning how to sound like my Metal icons. It took hundreds of frustrating hours, and then one day it all "clicked."

In your story you mention a once a week class followed by giving up. That's not a story of "hard work," that's a story of someone who "dabbled" for 2 years and then stopped dabbling. Simply "trying" and doing the bare minimum, or even average amount, isn't the same thing as hard work. The term "hard work" typically equates to things like: blood, sweat, and tears.

Well, you're right. Because I was lacking a very important piece: Passion

First: I wasn't playing enough. I played maybe an hour a day. And I even called it "training".
If you are really into something, you will at least do it for 4-8 hours a day. Or even longer if you have the time to do it.
Second: To love playing guitar has nothing to do with becoming a rock star. That is why most of the talent shows suck. A lot of the people aren't there because they like what they do. They just want to become a star.

But you need passion. You need love. You can go only that far with discipline and hard working. But without passion... it makes no sense. And it will eat you up.

On the other hand: Talent and passion is worth nothing if you don't put the hard work in and have some discipline to get better. I have seen very talented people given up way too fast. And lesser talented people getting better, because they are working so fucking hard.
Excuse my bad english. I speak to you through the google translator. 😛