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If we don't start to stand up now and speak out against it, it will only get worse.

Mad-AMad-A Posts: 2
NerveGear
The fact that these games are charging 40-50 dollars for games that only last 2-3 hours is insane. If we keep paying for it, it will only continue or get worse. We need to stand as a community and express the displeasure together. I love Oculus, I'm here to support them until the end, but I can't keep buying these games for that much and being done in one dang day!
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Comments

  • BeastyBaiterBeastyBaiter Posts: 810
    3Jane
    edited August 2017
    Way ahead of you, I've voted with my wallet repeatedly since getting the rift. That's the only vote anyone pays attention to. So far, I've bought zero games off OH as they are either massively over priced, game types I have no interest in (see Mechwarrior: Backseat Driver Edition, err, I mean Archangel) or outright broken in OH (such as Dirt Rally). On the other hand, I have bought a few VR exclusives from steam in addition to having a decent number of VR supported games from steam and elsewhere. For me: 2 hour game = $5 or less, 10 hour game = $20, $50+ game = 50+ hours. That doesn't mean a 2 hour game at $50 is a bad game. It can be the most amazing game ever made but it's still a bad value.

    Edit: I should point out that I check the new releases on OH almost daily for something worth getting. The problem is, it just isn't there.
  • jayhawkjayhawk Posts: 824
    3Jane

    the new releases on OH almost daily for something worth getting. The problem is, it just isn't there.
    Your reply is a bit overly negative, as in 'why did the dude even buy an Oculus then' kind of negative.

  • BiteyThingBiteyThing Posts: 25
    Brain Burst
    I'm guessing that VR titles don't sell anywhere close to as many copies as desktop games do. If that's the case, many studios would have to cut production time (quality) by quite a bit to make it worth their while... Definitely won't get better if people stop buying games  :/
  • BeastyBaiterBeastyBaiter Posts: 810
    3Jane
    CrashFu said:
    The fact that other platforms are charging 4-5 dollars for games that take dozens of people, vast sums of money and several years to make is insane. If we keep refusing to pay a fair price for it, it will only continue or get worse.  We need to stand as a community and express our support of hard-working game developers together.   I love Oculus, and I will support them until the end, because they've created a platform where game developers don't have to sell their content for the price of a goddamn cheeseburger just to compete with uncurated garbageware.

    ...

    I think I've only bought one game for $5, it was Goat Simulator. A cheeseburger is about what it was worth imho. I'm pretty sure the devs of it would appreciate that analogy too. :tongue:

    Regardless, the complaint is not that games cost $50+, it's that VR exclusives at that price are not anywhere near the same quality of a non-VR exclusive of the same price. That is a perfectly legitimate concern. I understand that we are a tiny minority. Steam claims we are less than 0.5% of total PC gamers and that includes Vive and OSVR users. Paying a bit more is certainly expected but that doesn't mean we should accept $50 2 hour tech demos using an off the shelf game engine. There is a lot of middle ground there.

    On an unrelated note, my name is reference to "The Witcher" (2007). I've been using it for many years.
  • NijNij Posts: 312
    Nexus 6
    So this is your first post!!

    Why did you buy a rift?

    How much is the average ps4 or xbox one game again?

    Seriously get a grip!, there's loads of good stuff to get on the store, even if your on a budget and like @Zenbane said, if you really want a game and don't wanna pay full price, then there's 2 sales a year and plenty of other promotions all the time (or you can get it from steam)

    Your not getting a 2d flat screen game anymore, your getting a 3d game where your actually totally in the game and with the right setup you will be completely immersed like no other game you've played before, trust me, i've had pretty much every console going and have been gaming for 25 years and playing the games in vr now is on another level and worth every penny

    I also prefer games that don't drag on for ages cause if your like me and have a job and a family then you don't get that much time to enjoy your games anyway, so I would rather have a shorter game which is polished and high quality, days are gone when you would buy one game and play it for 6 months or so (unless it's zelda), there's just too many games and not enough time!

    A lot of us on here have been with oculus for the last 5 years or so and aren't gonna pull out now and stop buying games, the prices are more than fair!
    I was a believer!! I was a Kickstarter backer!! Now I shall reap the rewards!!! :D:D:D
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,501 Valuable Player
    Good grief. Not this old chestnut again. People seem to think that every single flat game is 50+ hours long. This is complete bollocks. The average play through time of games that aren't Elder Scrolls/Fallout/[insert name of other open world game here] is around 5 or 6 hours and has been for the last 10 years or so.

    In fact the play through time of games changed when the 360 and PS3 were released because budgets of these games sky rocketed once 720p became a thing. In fact, developers and publishers tacked on online multiplayer to all of these games so that the majority of idiots buying these things didn't realise what they were doing.

    Now if you were talking about the majority of games on Steam being glorified tech demos that are only a few hours long I could understand where you're coming from...but the vast majority of single player games in the Oculus Store that are full price are long enough to justify that full price point.

    50+ hour games like GTA, Skyrim, Fallout etc are exceptions, not the average.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • CrashFuCrashFu Posts: 1,756 Valuable Player
    BeastyBaiter said:

    Regardless, the complaint is not that games cost $50+, it's that VR exclusives at that price are not anywhere near the same quality of a non-VR exclusive of the same price. That is a perfectly legitimate concern. I understand that we are a tiny minority. Steam claims we are less than 0.5% of total PC gamers and that includes Vive and OSVR users. Paying a bit more is certainly expected but that doesn't mean we should accept $50 2 hour tech demos using an off the shelf game engine. There is a lot of middle ground there.
    By WHAT metric are you comparing awe-inspiring, fully-immersive, emotionally-impactive, innovatively-designed VR experiences to regular old formulaic video games that has VR coming up so short for you?

    I'm starting to think that "gamers" should just have their VR licenses revoked altogether.  Every time I've sat a gamer down with my Rift, they just sit stone-still, staring straight ahead without motion, and rush through the game levels like they're doing a speed-run.   Of course the magic and wonderment of the immersive VR experience is lost on them, they barely even notice it's in 3D!  

    Also, your estimates of the typical VR game's length seems to halve every time you estimate it, and it wasn't very realistic to start with.  Why are you speed-running VR games and then complaining that they're too short?  For that matter, why are you trying to play VR games like they're regular old PC games in the first place?

    Ugh, gamers.
    It's hard being the voice of reason when you're surrounded by unreasonable people.
  • SerVitorSerVitor Posts: 122
    Art3mis
    ^^^ wow at that hate filled post.  From a poster of the week no less lol.

    The point about VR and non VR games.   I've already paid my £500 ish for the headset etc to experience games in VR so why do i have to pay a premium on top for the software?  Is there extra coding involved?


    I think because its still a fledgling new market you will still see premium prices...rightly or wrongly.  So i can understand why prices are high.  

    However, I dont agree with the whole "its an experience" so therefore "£30 or £40 is fair for 2 or 3 hour of VR experience"  No sorry it is not.   

    Considering how easy (in comparison to how much work goes into some proper non vr games) it is to put together a VR experience and then charge a premium rate for it ....unity+some premade assets...optimize for VR headsets ..slap in a 2 hour story and bobs your uncle.....  Sometimes makes me think that there is no QA or QC on the oculus store at all. hrm lol.

    But anyway

    The problem the OP and Beasty has in this thread is that sadly they have not received a proper  well thought rational counter to their argument.

    Telling someone to save money, wait for a flash sale etc or just basically bitch at them for being a gamer lol doesnt address the argument at all... it just makes the forum look bad....and immature.  


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  • SharpfishSharpfish Posts: 1,303
    Neo
    edited August 2017
    My main problem with high prices on DIGITAL DOWNLOAD only stuff is there's zero resale value. Call the OP names and cast aspersions on his character/earning ability all you like but sorry, the reality is many many people won't feel able to buy $40 "VR" games (that are very short) for too long, some of us are very savvy with money and can add up that over time you could blow $1000 on software, be done with it in a month and then have no options to even recoup some of that cost by selling the old games on amazon/ebay (for usually less than half price). Not gonna get into the rights and wrongs of reselling and how the devs feel hard done by by it, but the facts are that for years 'reselling' used games has been a major factor in why the industry is so successful in the first place!

    If we can't sell used games, we can't so readily make 'game cash' to spend on new games, esp as its a cash sink with no end. Especially as  most of them don't have demos, and especially as most of them are more like experiences than games or long / value worthy titles. Yeah the VR market sells less, but the other way to look at it is there's less competition for your game too, and better pricing would enable far more sales (duh) so it would even out anyway. AGAIN especially as there's no reselling ability! 

    Look at the uproar when Xbox 1 said 'no used games' then had to change their policy! It really does matter to people, and as we can't do that so easily on Digital (well not oculus anyway) of course some people are going to worry about spending so much.

    As for 'why did you buy rift then' - in my case I bought it primarily to create with/develop which brings me more fun than just playing other people's stuff anyway so I'm kind of ok. But if certain games had cheaper prices, or even demos, (the climb for example) then I'd have probably bought it already. As it stands thats one sale they didn't get as I have no idea if its worth that much without trying it first and can't resell if I don't like it.

    Don't get all self righteous/fanboyish/protective of oculus about this, this is a reality for at least half the VR users and its pretty clear the pricing is a bit off on some titles. Lone echo at £25 was just about right (pre-order price) esp as echo arena was free anyway. I'm sure it shifted way more copies at that price than if it was £40.

    Also I don't even like to think of 'games' in the traditional context alongside VR, though many do, but yeah VR if done well should be about something you buy, then can reuse/revisit many times (so there's your value) but I don't see much of that about yet (nor does the hardware really allow that feeling to fully develop - there's very little of this so called 'presence' just yet in gen 1 VR unless I just got used to it... I think we're gonna need much higher FOV and  resolution before VR software starts to have an inherent "other world" value, where its worth every penny just to plug-in to those places. At the moment the vast majority of VR games are centred around one or two VR centric "gimmicks" with very little replayability (other than competitive games), very little realism. Most of it as about as VR as tom and jerry... until the cartoon worlds start to die the true value/meaning of Virtual Reality won't be there, the high prices on some very short games doesn't add up just yet.

    That said, VR is currently a luxury, not a right.. I knew this going in so I don't start threads about it or go on about it much but it is a factor. And as for sales, when? We missed out the big summer sale after the rift sale so gotta wait a year for the climb to be reduced again? hmmm... I may have moved to another HMD by then!?
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  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 5,441 Volunteer Moderator
    edited August 2017
    Oculus has been doing the same four seasonal sales as Steam, so we should see an Autumn sale in the next couple months. 
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  • MorgrumMorgrum Posts: 1,712 Valuable Player
    Considering most of the console and pc games are becomming shorter and shorter with them focusing on multiplayer which to me seems like  a cop out.
    Im looking at you Call of Duty and For Honor!

    Many of these games are 6-8 hours max barring your rp ganes like the witcher 3 which was amazing and the fallout series.

    That said I dont mind 35-40 for a 4-6 hour interacting experiance because VR is so much more immersive then stareing at a screen a few feet from your face.
    WAAAGH!
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,501 Valuable Player
    You won't have to wait a year for the next sale, don't be ridiculous lol

    And I still don't know what Oculus-funded games people are talking about that cost $40 and only have a couple of hours play through time.

    Most of their games average 5-6 hours worth of content, some have twice that.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • cybernettrcybernettr Posts: 939
    3Jane
     I think part of the problem is seeing how quickly you can rush through a game -- "Oh, I finished this game in only two or three hours, therefore it's a rip off" -- rather than considering the replay value of a game.  If you games detail is so stunning that every time you revisit it you notice new things, then it doesn't really only provide 2 to 3 hours of value, does it?  People are trying to see how quickly they can "beat" a game rather than actually experiencing it, and then complaining that it isn't long enough.  Was the original Star Wars just a two hour film or did it become a 40 year phenomenon?  Plus, how much of a value would you put on "creative" games like Minecraft or even Medium or Quill? 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,152 Valuable Player
    edited August 2017
     I think part of the problem is seeing how quickly you can rush through a game -- "Oh, I finished this game in only two or three hours, therefore it's a rip off" -- rather than considering the replay value of a game.  If you games detail is so stunning that every time you revisit it you notice new things, then it doesn't really only provide 2 to 3 hours of value, does it?  People are trying to see how quickly they can "beat" a game rather than actually experiencing it, and then complaining that it isn't long enough.  Was the original Star Wars just a two hour film or did it become a 40 year phenomenon?  Plus, how much of a value would you put on "creative" games like Minecraft or even Medium or Quill? 
    Completely agree. Plus, people keep "speed playing" and ignoring the entirety of the content.

    The example I use most lately is, Robinson the Journey. I read on multiple outlets (here, reddit, youtube), that it was a 4 hour game. But I bought it anyway at full price. The 4-hour gaming estimate turned out to only be true if you speed play through the main story and literally ignore everything else the game offers.

    I still haven't found the last few unlocks, and I'm over 12 hours in to the game. Plus, the side quests are fantastic and should not be skipped by anyone who is concerned about pricing (or anyone who enjoys gaming).
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  • BeastyBaiterBeastyBaiter Posts: 810
    3Jane
    Reselling games has never been a concern for me. Don't think I've ever done that. Come to think of it, I don't think I've bought a physical game disk since 2011 (skyrim) and even that was an oddity. I did it only because going to the store and buying it would be quicker than downloading. :D 

    What I've always tried to do is get games worth playing. I don't buy garbage games only good for a couple hours regardless of price. In my view, any game worth playing is worth spending some time with. I go for deep gameplay, not shallow throw away stuff. And I will pay a hefty premium for such gameplay. I bought a $400 VR headset for that very reason, to enhance my experience playing flight sims which I'd already spent hundreds on in joysticks and addons. I've been very happy with VR so far in that regard.

    Going back to the core issue, the games on offer that are VR exclusive tend to be those 2 hour games that I wouldn't download for free. And both OH and steam think $25+ is a fair price for them. Maybe they are right, but I won't buy them regardless. Fortunately, there is some light at the end of the tunnel. I have found a few early access games (something I normally avoid like the plague) that show some promise and hopefully Skyrim + Fallout VR will inject some life into the VR game market.

    And I agree that normal pricing should follow here because there is less competition. Just looking at RTS's, there are dozens made this year alone for 2d screens. I've seen a grand total of one RTS for VR using touch controllers. It looks like a terrible game to me, but it has zero competition. Nothing like a good ole' monopoly to make a pile of garbage profitable.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,501 Valuable Player
    What 2 hour games?
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,152 Valuable Player
    edited August 2017
     I don't buy garbage games only good for a couple hours regardless of price. In my view, any game worth playing is worth spending some time with.
    Quantity != Quality

    Candy Crush has countless hours of gameplay, but I consider it garbage. Along with Clash of Clans and 99% of the entire mobile gaming industry. I would question the gaming integrity if anyone who thinks that the quality of a game is measured by gameplay hours.


     I bought a $400 VR headset

    Going back to the core issue, the games on offer that are VR exclusive tend to be those 2 hour games that I wouldn't download for free. And both OH and steam think $25+ is a fair price for them.
    Two things:

    First, this year-long complaint has always accurately presented the gameplay hours that cause the real issue: 4-6 hours of gameplay. This thread pulls some magic out of a hat with its misrepresenting the truth by claiming "only 2 hours of gameplay." I would challenge anyone to list a $40 VR game that can be completed in a mere 2 hours.

    Second, if you have such high standards... then why wouldn't you perform some very basic research before buying a $400 VR headset? Anyone who truly has standards that must be met (as opposed to people that just pretend to have standards) typically performs adequate research before making an investment. If you had done even 10 minutes of research on VR gaming, then you would see that 4-6 hours is incredibly standard ever since the release of both the Rift and Vive in May of 2016.

    In fact, gameplay time was significantly shorter (less than 2 hours) with all of the Demo Kit software starting from 2014.

    Complaints like this reveal a problem with the consumer, not the product (imo).
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  • BeastyBaiterBeastyBaiter Posts: 810
    3Jane
    Zenbane, if you're going to quote and comment, at least read the full sentence and take context into account. I very clearly stated that I've been completely satisfied with the Rift for the primary purpose I bought it, playing flight sims.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,152 Valuable Player
    edited August 2017
    Zenbane, if you're going to quote and comment, at least read the full sentence and take context into account. I very clearly stated that I've been completely satisfied with the Rift for the primary purpose I bought it, playing flight sims.
    This is not a discussion about Flight Sims, and when we look at the things you have said in relation to the discussion:

    "So far, I've bought zero games off OH as they are either massively over priced"

    "I should point out that I check the new releases on OH almost daily for something worth getting. The problem is, it just isn't there. "

    "the games on offer that are VR exclusive tend to be those 2 hour games that I wouldn't download for free."

    Like I said, if you have such high standards then you should have researched gameplay time before buying the Rift. Flight Sims are cool, I enjoy Eve Valkyrie and Elite Dangerous, but Flight Sims alone doesn't justify the full investment that VR requires. Especially because all flight sims end up repetitive and monotonous.

    If you can play Flight Sims for hours and hours, and enjoy them so much that you feel $400 for the Rift was worthwhile, then surely you must realize that your tolerance for repetition and monotony prove that "Quality vs Quantity" is purely biased and subjective.

    I can think of 2-3 hour experiences in VR that are far more compelling than a mere Flight Sim.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,501 Valuable Player
    I'm still waiting to hear about these two hour games that everyone keeps talking about whenever one of these threads pops up. Like I've said earlier 5-6 hours is the AVERAGE play through time for flat games and has been since the Xbox 360 came out in 2005. Why? For the following reasons:

    1) Because the budgets of these games escalated when games went HD

    2) So that idiots like me testing the things can do a full play through in one working day

    3) So that reviewers can review these things quicker

    These are also the reasons why the difficulty level of games has sunk like a stone. They want testers to play through the games quicker and they don't want reviewers (who for some strange reason seem to be pants at playing games!) giving it a low score because they struggle to beat the game.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • Thane_Thane_ Posts: 242
    Nexus 6
    Its cheaper in many businesses to simply raise prices and serve the wealthier folks only. You don't have to deal with so much stock, customers, shipping, returns, bugs, you don't need any many working to produce, do maintenance, etc. Awesome. Or it would be, if the poorer/middle folks weren't the ones doing all the fucking work, building our societies, if every single thing we see around us weren't the result of the work of low/middle income worker...

    Anyway, not sure if that's exactly whats happening here though. I don't like the idea of sales being the way for the average consumer to be able to purchase games and be an avid VR user. Just charge a fucking fair price and be done with it. But I understand they want to capture the money that's out there among the wealthier folks. Just another annoying side-effect of capitalism: take all you can, give as little as possible, what could possibly go wrong...
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Posts: 163
    Art3mis
    I myself ascribe to the '1$, 1 hour' rule.  Steam has spoiled me. 

    Most GVR games are around the 5 dollar mark, though. 
  • HiCZoKHiCZoK Posts: 230
    Art3mis
    Seriously. All this shitty games that were free on dk1 and dk2 are not 15-40$

    While games like hellblade are 30$... Making game vr is not really all that more difficult... the sdk's are easily available and game being vr does not explain huge price increase.

    But that will end when vr gets more popular
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,162 Valuable Player
    I am interested in hearing what OVR users feel are the right pricing for the games they are buying. We recently saw a number of VR game developers stating that they are making more money from royalties paid to them from having their game on VR Arcade services, than they were seeing from conventional SteamVR and Home sales.
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  • falken76falken76 Posts: 2,901 Valuable Player
    I never bought video games with resale value being a factor.  They rarely exceed $50, anyone with a regular job should be able to afford them easily.  Especially if you are someone who has already invested the money into VR to the point that you are looking for software to purchase for it.  The market will determine the value of these games.  If their games don't sell, I'm sure they'll adjust their prices.  I also agree that some people are determining content value based on speed runs which is ridiculous.This is a great time to be a developer before the studios jump in and pump millions of dollars into each title.  I can't stand that so many devs make Wave shooters.  But I just don't buy those games, someone likes them enough that they still sell.  I just read the reviews and that's where I find the problems that are referenced the most often.  I think they should offer Demos though so you could try the games out first, especially without a return policy.  But if in doubt, I just buy a game on steam because they have a return policy.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,501 Valuable Player
    Developers now have the option of having trial periods for their games sold in the Oculus Store. No idea how that works though.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
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