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If we don't start to stand up now and speak out against it, it will only get worse.

2

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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,812 Valuable Player
    It is clear that it has been a very difficult period for developers that had hoped to make enough revenue out of the VR game scene. The promises amounted to nothing, and the wall of silence regarding how many VR units are in circulation illustrates this difficult situation. 

    It is expected that some game publishers will have to go with high prices as the reality dawns that the promises about the market size failed to material. I do not feel its a good business model as the market is fragile and paying over the odds on games with limited game-play (duration or scope), the market could suffer. 
    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,150 Valuable Player
    Any developer expecting to make money by developing and selling a VR game without funding or anyone providing funding to make money out of selling VR games has either no previous experience working in the industry and/or is incredibly naive.

    The same thing happens every console generation too when developers start developing first generation console hardware. You see a LOAD of developers going bust during the first year of a console being released WITHOUT FAIL.

    Unless they've had the benefit of a money-hat from the platform holder for exclusivity first generation titles, on average at least, don't make money. Developers with any sense are prepared to make a loss on their first new console game title. So why do they do it..? Two reasons:

    1) They're HOPING against hope that their game is going to sell a shitload but if that doesn't happen then

    2) They're getting their name out there as a developer/publisher that supports new tech which is important for their reputation. It doesn't even matter if they lose money on it as long as they've prepared for it.


    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,150 Valuable Player
    Oh, and nobody has named these multitude of titles on the Oculus Store that cost $40 and have 2 hours worth of game play.

    Anyone?

    Anyone?
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,613 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    Any developer expecting to make money by developing and selling a VR game without funding or anyone providing funding to make money out of selling VR games has either no previous experience working in the industry and/or is incredibly naive.
    Exactly.

    Development studios are making plenty of money through investment funding. If there is someone out there claiming that making revenue with VR software is a struggle... then as you say, they either have zero experience (thus receive zero funding) or they just aren't trying.


    snowdog said:
    Oh, and nobody has named these multitude of titles on the Oculus Store that cost $40 and have 2 hours worth of game play.

    Anyone?

    Anyone?



    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,150 Valuable Player
    Why Ben Affleck?

    Should have been Matthew Broderick's teacher:



     B) 
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • ragenrokragenrok Posts: 52
    Hiro Protagonist
    edited August 2017
    I agree with the OP, I see Games like Arizona sunshine that offer a good sp and mp options with good gameplay then I see tripwire release a game with half the content for the same price. There are some games/developers that sell for a decent price but there are plenty that need to get their heads out of their asses (much like some of the users on this board).

    many of these games are not worth their $30-$40 asking price and I will wait till they drop in price. VR is expensive enough, expecting everyone to drop tons of money on all the top Games is silly. I'm looking forward to Killing floor, once it hits a good 50% off sale or tripwire actually adds some content to justify the price.

    for me my price guideline is $1=1 hour of fun for standard 2d games on my pc and PS4. So I I spend $50 on a game I expect to get roughly 50 hours out of it

    for vr I expect $1= 30 minutes so if you want to try and peg your 4 hour experience as a "game" that's cool but my wallet won't open till you drop it to $10.


    in the end if you your fine with the prices you go spend all you want but I vote with my wallet and don't support unjustified prices.
  • kzintzikzintzi Posts: 1,068
    Wintermute
    I bought Mages tale - have spent about 5 hours in it so far, and not completed it yet.. I've also missed a couple of the puzzles, so when I replay I'll still have stuff to do.

    not unhappy I spent the money I did on it, and if I had an issue in spending $60AU for 5 hours worth of entertainment where I get to be a mage and cast spells at things, I'd have not spent $3000 on a new rig, VR headset and controllers.

    sure not every game will give you 100hrs+ like  Elite Dangerous will (Assuming you've got the taste for it like I do), but so what. I'm not 14 and have copious amounts of time on my hands.. I manage to get about 4 hours a week in VR at the moment between family and job so something that doesn't take me 2 months to finish is a good thing.

    hell, even taking myself to the movies costs upwards of $30 - if I take the family it's $100.. 
    Though you are more than slightly incoherent, I agree with you Madam,
    a plum is a terrible thing to do to a nostril.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,613 Valuable Player
    edited August 2017
    snowdog said:
    Why Ben Affleck?


    I knew you wouldn't get any responses, hence "silence," thus "sound of silence," therefore...



    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,812 Valuable Player
    Avoiding those trying to derail an interesting topic, that some find... uncomfortable.

    We have seen some interesting examples of heavily funded projects able to charge a lower price, while others have looked for the full AAA pricing.

    Possibly, VR could be the first to deploy a "try before you buy" pricing, where games would be given a one minute demo play, before the VR gamer has to stump up the full price?
    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,150 Valuable Player
    Nobody is trying to derail anything. Various people in this thread and previous similar threads have said that they don't want to pay full price for a 2 hour game or a tech demo.

    I'm guessing that Killing Floor Incursion would be one of these? I haven't played it properly yet so can't have an opinion on it's content or replay value apart from noting that it can be played as a single player experience as well as having an online co-op option. This would give the game replay value, surely?

    So any others?
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,150 Valuable Player
    And Oculus have just given developers the option of trial periods for games.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,812 Valuable Player
    Interesting - How does their proposal for "trail period" work?
    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 5,020 Volunteer Moderator
    edited August 2017
    Defense Grid 2 is the first game to implement it--first chapter is free to play, with an in-app purchase to unlock chapters 2-6.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,613 Valuable Player
    Dragon Front is also free, with the ability to pay to unlock other chapters.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • KenSniperKenSniper Posts: 183
    Art3mis
    As much as I'd like them to be cheaper I think it wont be feasible for devs now to do so, VR is a niche market, so sales will only go so far, plus they are also taking a risk at spending their time and manpower into a niche, we could also look at it from another extreme that the devs think that if we can afford these vr sets so definitely we can pay for these prices

    but in the end the consumers choose with their wallets, if its a good game it will always sell, if it's not, then too bad, at least this is all just my 2 cents, I'm not a dev so i dont know what goes on in their heads
  • EliteSPAEliteSPA Posts: 1,560
    Project 2501
    edited August 2017
    The worst thing is that they come only in english language, is it so hard to add subtitles? Lone echo, star trek, killing floor, charged 40-50 euros......
    i7 6700K @ 4.2 GHz | Corsair 16GB DDR4 PC2300 | GTX 1080 Ti | Asus z170-Pro | Corsair RGB Strafe Keyboard | Logitech G27 | Oculus CV1 + Touch + 4 Sensors | Win 10 64 bit | Acer Predator x34 @ 100Hz
  • KillCardKillCard Posts: 1,078
    Wintermute
    edited August 2017
    kevinw729 said:
    I am interested in hearing what OVR users feel are the right pricing for the games they are buying. We recently saw a number of VR game developers stating that they are making more money from royalties paid to them from having their game on VR Arcade services, than they were seeing from conventional SteamVR and Home sales.
    Under 2 hours experience should be no more than $5 USD.
    2-6 hours should cost around $10-15 depending on quality
    7-10 hours should cost around $15-$30 depending on quality

    For anything more than $30 you should be able to expect either more than 10 hours of gameplay or a living and/or competitive online mode that will keep the game interesting for an extended playability lifetime.

  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 4,083 Valuable Player
    edited August 2017
    The fact that these games are charging 40-50 dollars for games that only last 2-3 hours is insane. If we keep paying for it, it will only continue or get worse. We need to stand as a community and express the displeasure together. I love Oculus, I'm here to support them until the end, but I can't keep buying these games for that much and being done in one dang day!
    wait for a discount then... as the consumers we have all the power. 

    i think you are stretching a bit tho... 2-3 hrs for $50?

    I got edge of nowhere and completed it in just under 6 hrs, so twice as long as your 3 hrs. this is a game that is often complained about as being too short.... but, at the £13 i paid for it, i do not regret one bit.

    games like pcars, elite dangerous, assetto corsa offer 100s of hrs entertainment.

    but as i said, ... dont like the price, wait for discount, simples.

    i bought 8 or so titles on oculus store in the summer sale, and similar number on steam.... none of them were more than £15 / $20 and some were much less.... at those prices i am fine for 6 hrs length, so long as it is "good" gameplay for those 6 hrs.

    maybe it is a sign of my age and responsibilities (ie not much time to game) but i see 100hr plus games generally as a negative NOT a positive these days, and any game which is completable in 10hrs or less, is often the kind of thing i will be drawn too.

    PS in the early 90s i happily paid £5 i *think* it was (cut me some slack here it was 25 years ago) for a go on a virtuality game which at best lasted 5 mins.

    with inflation i dare say that £5 is closer to £10-£15 now....

    i gotta admit, some of the game on oculus home are a bit rich for me, but as has already been covered, when you are looking at sales in the 1000s not in the millions, unless you are getting a chunk of the Facebook money, then economics of scale means they do have to charge a bit more and the prices WILL come down in a sale

    TBH its why for now, for the shiny high budget games *on the whole* (ie those without oculus money) i think our best chances are still for well thought out VR modes in flat screen games

    but even with that said, there are a fair number of really cool VR games out and coming out over the next 12 months... have you seen that new RPG (i cant remember the name right now but posted about it on these forums). it looks to have all the polish of a big studio title.....
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,150 Valuable Player
    Of course he's stretching things a bit. Nobody has named these games that are supposed to be tech demos or are 2-3 hours long for $50 on the Oculus Store. I think he's getting Steam and the Oculus Store confused tbh.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • DieslowDieslow Posts: 42
    Brain Burst
    CrashFu said:

    P.S.  Put this in perspective: A copy of a new-release movie costs $20-30 and typically lasts 1.5 hours. $40-50 for an interactive, highly-immersive VR experience that lasts "only 4 hours" is not worth a proportional amount to you?

    P.P.S.  Some of us, particular gamers and VR-users with full-time jobs, or other responsibilities or hobbies, really appreciate shorter, higher-quality games and experiences these days.  Especially since the "long" ones usually don't actually have 10x as much content, but rather the same amount of content with 90% time-wasting filler. Somebody explain to me, when did the purpose of games and other entertainment products stop being "to entertain us" and start being "to waste as much of our time as possible?"  You want to do something boring for 40 hours, I'm sure you've got housework piling up, go do that.

    Oh man do I love those 2 P.S ! Great comparison to the movies and, like you mentioned, I'd rather play 2-3 intense hours than waste my time. Where is the fun in having to drive/walk to some location then having  to get to another location to finally see something happen ? Pointless in my opinion while it can be fun in the beginning it quickly gets boring after a couple of hours.
  • vannagirlvannagirl Posts: 2,002 Valuable Player
    Some reductions in home i notice earlier

    Its true then, oculus do sales  ;)
    Look, man. I only need to know one thing: where they are. 
  • Aidens12Aidens12 Posts: 121
    Art3mis
    For me, the most recent offender of a vr game being overpriced for the amount of content is , as someone else stated, Killing Floor Incursion. The gameplay itself was good but it was just too darn short (and it doesnt have alot of incentive for replaying it) and the matchmaking coop never worked no matter how many times i tried to do it. that said, it's also the kind of game i would've been pretty impressed with too 8 months ago when i first got my headset/touch controllers. also would've been more impressed with it  had the market not been too saturated with these kinds of games that offer similar experiences at lower cost.
  • HorrorscopeHorrorscope Posts: 6
    NerveGear
    CrashFu said:
    Put this in perspective: A copy of a new-release movie costs $20-30 and typically lasts 1.5 hours. $40-50 for an interactive, highly-immersive VR experience that lasts "only 4 hours" is not worth a proportional amount to you?



    What if I'm not buying movies anymore, like most? I get your point, but game makers have to find their market to.
  • HorrorscopeHorrorscope Posts: 6
    NerveGear
    At this point in my life, I actually appreciate games that are high quality, but clock in around 4 - 6 hours of gameplay. I work and have other hobbies, I don't want every game to be a 40 hour RPG, that's just daunting. It's about quality, not quantity.
    I agree and to me sure it's about quality, but it is more like... "Ok I get your mechanic, it was fun learning and fun playing but there's a point the mechanics in most games start getting stale". So yes I do like much shorter games now, price being reasonable to for a short experience, assume shorter development time as well.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,613 Valuable Player
    edited August 2017
    I think the development time has been impressively short. I have over 50 VR titles and we're barely 1 year in to mainstream consumer VR as a gaming platform. If we shorten the development time any further... we'll likely all be playing 100 versions of Candy Crush VR :'(
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • Smashed_PumpkinSmashed_Pumpkin Posts: 71
    Hiro Protagonist
    These days the really big games tend to be about replayability. Look at League of Legends, Dota, Overwatch, Hearthstone, etc.

    The time played in those games doesn't come from copious content, it comes from a set of really strong base mechanics around which a lot of diversity and player choice is built.

    Robo Recall is a really good example of this where they've built a very robust 10-second experience and then scaled it over a variety of maps, unlocks, and interesting scoring system. I've already spent well over 10 hours in that game and I'm still more than happy to just jump into a level and have fun trying to get another star or beat my previous score. And what's really impressive is that they've achieved this within a single player experience.

    If you expect beautifully tailored, bespoke stories told in the form of an RPG that spans hours of play time, you're going to have a bad time, especially this early in VR's life. As Zenbane just mentioned, VR as a mainstream gaming platform hasn't been around long enough for these types of games to exist.
  • KillCardKillCard Posts: 1,078
    Wintermute
    edited August 2017
    CrashFu said:

    How paranoid do you have to be to believe that developers are intentionally making games as short as possible, that they're trying to somehow scam you into buying "unworthy" games for "too much money"?   Nobody's trying to scam you, in fact it's incredibly generous for them to sell these games for THIS cheap given the size of the market; normally when developing for a market this small, a developer will easily charge $100 per game.
    VR, being a new technology, has attracted a wide audience of both gamers and non gamers. I don't know which category you fall into here but it seems like you are in the non-gamer or at best casual gamer category.

    The thing is, gamers know exactly what to expect from publishers who create content - for profit. You state they are being paranoid, I'm telling you they are well justified in their cynicism. AAA game publishers will take a mile for every inch you give them, if they think selling a $50 2 hour experience is profitable they will not endeavour to make it any longer. Gamers are already accustomed to being completely shat on by AAA publishers in this regard, EA or Activision would jump at the chance to half the amount of content of their next Call of Duty or their next Star Wars Battlefront while keeping the same price tag - if they thought they could get away with it. We don't want to see the entire VR industry start like this out of the gate only to get worse and worse as the years go buy. God knows its already going to shit for flat gaming alone.

    If a publisher invests a million dollars into making a short experience with stale/uninspired gameplay then whats the point? Why not just spend more time fleshing out the games mechanics? Creating more levels? Making the game more challenging or more interesting in some way?

    No, if a AAA publisher can't find a way to invest their money and time into development responsibly I would rather we didnt have any AAA VR games. At this point indie developers and AA developers are doing a MUCH better job at making enjoyable VR experiences.


  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,150 Valuable Player
    Okay, so we've had ONE example of a 2 hour game given, Killing Floor Incursion. And that has replay value due to online co-op. I'm not sure about the US price but here in the UK it's 30 quid. Seeing as it's 30 quid over here I'm pretty sure that it's not $50.

    So nobody has given an example of a 2 hour game available in the Oculus Store that costs $50.

    Anyone?

    Anyone?
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
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