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HTC finally gives in! The Vive price cut has arrived

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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,153 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 said:
    Zenbane said:
    The bigger question:
    Will Vivarians spend yet another year praising HTC for its ability to half-heartedly mimic every major action performed by Facebook and Oculus? I think they will.
    The bigger question now is - how long will OH compete with the AAA games coming to SteamVR? As the SteamVR user base matures in size Devs are less lightly to take bribe money to go exclusive. They'll simply be self sufficient as PCVR HMD sales hit 2 million. FB will need to dig even deeper to keep these exclusives coming.
    Erm...this is precisely why Facebook are investing this money. They're basically carrying the AAA game content so far on their own until  big publishers jump in with their own AAA titles. This is what Oculus and Facebook want, this isn't a bad thing at all. And any AAA game publisher will have their content on Steam AND the Oculus Store unless they're Zenimax or Valve.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 3,128 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    So you are suggesting that HTC and LG perform Patent infringement? lol

    HTC has adopted the "copy the other guy" business model for so long that now it's become your own second-nature business strategy recommendation.
    No, no, no. HTC and LG 'might' take Valves base design and license it from Valve in the same way they license the rest of the Tech.

    Valve 'might' release their own stand alone Knuckles and leave HTC and LG to make their own variations. They might look different but will all have the same core functions the same way LG Wands look different to HTC's but do the same thing.
    DK2 owner - Vive owner - Pimax 8k backer - Waiting for Knuckles on Valve time.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,153 Valuable Player
    Facebook will announce that they're spending another $500m into VR development in October at Oculus Connect 4 but this will probably be the last time they need to do it.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • BeastyBaiterBeastyBaiter Posts: 793
    3Jane
    Hard to say if the OH store will survive, it's a nice looking store and well integrated into the headset, far better than steamVR is. But it lacks content and ultimately that's what counts. In any case, it's good to hear Vive dropped their price too. I think OR still edges them out but the more we can get into VR the better. For me, I'd been eyeing a headset ever since the OR kickstarter days. I wanted to wait for the retail version and was willing to spend about $300 for it. It wasn't until the summer sale that I finally got what was expected, mostly. I view the touch controllers as a $100 addon, planned to resell them initially but I've since been converted. They are pretty nice.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,626 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 said:
    FB will need to dig even deeper to keep these exclusives coming.
    Digging deeper in to ones own pockets is easy when your competitors fill those pockets:

    Steams Facebook page:
    https://www.facebook.com/Steam/

    HTC's Facebook page:
    https://www.facebook.com/HTC

    The Vive's Facebook page:
    https://www.facebook.com/HTCVIVE


    Every Steam sale, and even this Vive price drop, ends up a Facebook paid advertisement. Which means that every Steam and Vive sale helps fill those Facebook pockets B)

    In contrast, HTC will have to beg even deeper; turning to the 30+ companies giving them money in that Venture Capital Alliance.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,626 Valuable Player
    Hard to say if the OH store will survive, it's a nice looking store and well integrated into the headset, far better than steamVR is. But it lacks content and ultimately that's what counts.
    History dictates otherwise considering that Vive users flooded the Rift forums last year when Oculus temporarily blocked "Revive" from letting them play OH games:
    https://forums.oculus.com/community/discussion/36620/oculus-blocks-revive-in-latest-update-good-or-bad/p1

    https://github.com/LibreVR/Revive/wiki/Compatibility-list

    You are new to the forum but the arguments you've presented since your arrival are highly dated.


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  • dburnedburne Posts: 2,864 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 said:
    Zenbane said:
    The bigger question:
    Will Vivarians spend yet another year praising HTC for its ability to half-heartedly mimic every major action performed by Facebook and Oculus? I think they will.
    The bigger question now is - how long will OH compete with the AAA games coming to SteamVR? As the SteamVR user base matures in size Devs are less lightly to take bribe money to go exclusive. They'll simply be self sufficient as PCVR HMD sales hit 2 million. FB will need to dig even deeper to keep these exclusives coming.

    Best I can tell Oculus has been wiping the floor with HTC. Certainly this large price cut should help as I am sure Vive sales dropped to about nil over the last several weeks, but remains to be seen if it will be enough to create some serious momentum for them.

    Regarding games, HTC has been lagging way behind there as well as compared to those offered on Oculus Home. 

    I do agree though this is overall a very good thing for the VR Industry. Thanks to Oculus for being at the forefront of this aggressive pricing.  I am sure HTC will like seeing their Vive starting to be discussed across the web now again, rather than the cricket chirping that has been going on the last several weeks.
    Don

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  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 4,089 Valuable Player
    given both valve AND oculus are part of the openXR standard, my hope is sooner rather than later the vive will be officially supported on oculus home. once this happens there really will be no reason other than some strange fanboy obsession that everything pro valve is holy and everything NOT valve is the enemy that BOTH stores wont survive / prosper.

    for purely VR stuff right now i find oculus front end to be the better place to be in VR (their storefront sucks balls still however imo).... but my understanding is oculus charge devs the same 30% that valve charge to be on their store, and for anyone who moans about oculus store front exclusivity being evil...

    well as soon as i can buy HL2 or other steamworks exclusive titles from oculus home, you may have a point, until then, they are both competing store fronts much the same as each other in terms of eithics imo.

    (every time valve update their T&Cs, should you dare to reject them, you lose access to your entire account, hardly the open ethos that i keep getting told valve champion).

    I STILL have not seen convincing proof that it is all down to oculus for the vive not having official support on the oculus store. IMO depending who you believe it could just as easily be valve not wanting vive users buying from another store front.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,626 Valuable Player
    edited August 2017
    @bigmike20vt

    Keep in mind that the Vive has VivePort as their attempted answer to Oculus Home. The new Vive price cut comes with a VivePort subscription.

    The open standard will be cool, but it likely has a long way to go and its implementation is still theoretical for all parties involved. Open Platforms and Open Standards go against Competition. I have always found this interesting (not directed at you specifically)
    • People say that Competition is good for VR
    • People say that an Open Standards are good for VR
    Yet:
    • Open Standards enforce Collaboration over Competition
    • Competition eliminates Cross-Platform compatibility
    • Every thriving industry in history stems from Competition

    My personal guess is that all the VR organizations will take part in the Open Standard just to shut up all the Carebears wanting cross-platform rainbow luvin. Things like arcade-style games and 360 video will be available on this open standard platform.

    However, proprietary platforms and exclusives will remain the dominant force driving competition for years to come. But again, just my personal guess.
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  • BeastyBaiterBeastyBaiter Posts: 793
    3Jane
    I'm sure steam wants all the games sold exclusively through them. It won't happen, but that's what they want as a for profit company. The real question is how much of the Vive's and OSVR's sdk's does Valve control. I honestly don't have any ideas on that.

    It certainly would be interesting to see OH officially support the Vive and OSVR HMD's. I think their goal is to make money off game sales rather than the physical headsets, so it would make sense to do it if Valve hasn't embedded themselves too deeply in non-OR VR devices.
  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 3,128 Valuable Player
    Its a HUGE problem with the Oculus business model. FB need OH to be exclusive to sell their headsets. As soon as OH goes the way of OpenXR people can buy any HMD without the need for Revive. The Vive with Lighthouse has allways been more popular over the Rifts constellation system despite the Rifts more competitive price. How is FB going to stop the slow decline in Rift sales when Vive has direct access to the expensive AAA titles FB are investing in? OH can't survive with OpenXR, the Rift can't survive with Constalation and with Valve, Zenimax and HTC all throwing down AAA titles it's hard to see where FB will go In 2018.
    DK2 owner - Vive owner - Pimax 8k backer - Waiting for Knuckles on Valve time.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,626 Valuable Player
    edited August 2017
    Atmos73 said:
    Its a HUGE problem with the Oculus business model.
    yeah yeah... you call everything a "huge problem with the Oculus business model," right up until HTC copies it. Then it's the greatest thing in your kitchen since sliced bread :p


    Atmos73 said:
    As soon as OH goes the way of OpenXR people can buy any HMD without the need for Revive. The Vive with Lighthouse has allways been more popular over the Rifts constellation system despite the Rifts more competitive price. How is FB going to stop the slow decline in Rift sales when Vive has direct access to the expensive AAA titles FB are investing in? OH can't survive with OpenXR, the Rift can't survive with Constalation and with Valve, Zenimax and HTC all throwing down AAA titles it's hard to see where FB will go In 2018.

    ... and once logic fails, and wishful thinking isn't enough, pure Fantasy arrives :D
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  • Atmos73Atmos73 Posts: 3,128 Valuable Player
    edited August 2017
    Zenbane said:
    Atmos73 said:
    Its a HUGE problem with the Oculus business model.
    yeah yeah... you call everything a "huge problem with the Oculus business model," right up until HTC copies it. Then it's the greatest thing in your kitchen since sliced bread :p
    I've always from day one said Oculus has problems with its business model. The same way I backed Blu-ray when most people wanted cheap HD-DVD plays. I just knew Sony, Disney and Fox couldn't loose. As soon as Warner Bros caved in it was game over. The same way if Oculus support OpenXR its game over.
    DK2 owner - Vive owner - Pimax 8k backer - Waiting for Knuckles on Valve time.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,626 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 said:
    I've always from day one said Oculus has problems with its business model.
    Yes... and then you end up praising that exact business model when HTC literally copies it.

    Like here,
    "How is FB going to stop the slow decline in Rift sales when Vive has direct access to the expensive AAA titles FB are investing in?"

    Before HTC was able to copy FB's AAA titles, you would complain about the "walled garden approach." Now you're here bragging because HTC finally bought a ladder :D
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,153 Valuable Player
    edited August 2017
    Atmos73 said:
    Zenbane said:
    Atmos73 said:
    Its a HUGE problem with the Oculus business model.
    yeah yeah... you call everything a "huge problem with the Oculus business model," right up until HTC copies it. Then it's the greatest thing in your kitchen since sliced bread :p
    I've always from day one said Oculus has problems with its business model. The same way I backed Blu-ray when most people wanted cheap HD-DVD plays. I just knew Sony, Disney and Fox couldn't loose. As soon as Warner Bros caved in it was game over. The same way if Oculus support OpenXR its game over.
    I honestly think you're more than a little insane. Just think about what you're saying for a minute.

    Facebook have funded developers to the tune of $500m so far (not $500m each year like I said earlier, I had a brain freeze lol) and will most likely fund developers using another $250m, they'll announce this in October. That's three quarters of a billion smackeroonies. Why are they doing this? NOT TO SELL HEADSETS. They're making bugger all money on selling headsets since they released the Rift.

    What their business model is, that you seem to have a bizarre problem with, is to make money from software sales. Console manufacturers have been doing this for YEARS, it's the same business model. But unlike Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo Oculus aren't charging developers to submit games or charging developers a licence fee. This is being done for free, because THEY WANT AS MUCH GOOD QUALITY SOFTWARE IN THEIR STORES AS POSSIBLE SO THAT PEOPLE BUY IT AND THEY MAKE MONEY.

    They're supporting OpenXR BECAUSE THEY WANT AS MANY HEADSET OWNERS AS POSSIBLE TO USE THEIR STORES AND GIVE THEM MONEY.

    Now, Oculus Rift headset owners are more likely to use the Oculus Store but when OpenXR is adopted by the industry they want good quality content on their store to be available to buy, including exclusives. This is the console business model again. And it works. There is NOTHING wrong with this business model, it's been successful for DONKEY'S YEARS.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,576 Valuable Player
    edited August 2017
    Yea I've been pretty annoyed with Steam myself. Valve should be using the billions they rake in to create AAA PC exclusive games to give the exclusive chasers/consolers a reason to go PC and grow the market. In the last couple of years nearly every PC game goes to PS4 and is the reason PS4 has done so well. Why buy a mid range PC when every significant game outside of Strategy and Niche Simming is on PS4 already for 300 bucks. Valve is just collecting a check and doing little. Obviously there's still plenty of reasons to own a PC at the enthusiast and even the budget levels if you like the indie/lower graphical games.
  • SyntheticSynthetic Posts: 704
    Trinity
    Its going to be an interesting christmas... especially if fallout and skyrim come thru with the VR modes

    this is the first ive heard of openXR .... thanx for the info....

    cheers beers
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,626 Valuable Player
    edited August 2017
    Atmos73 said:
    I've always from day one said Oculus has problems with its business model. The same way I backed Blu-ray when most people wanted cheap HD-DVD plays. I just knew Sony, Disney and Fox couldn't loose. As soon as Warner Bros caved in it was game over.
    This whole DVD thing stayed in my head so I gotta response lol...
    • The Internet was mainstream by 1993.
    • The first DVD was released in 1997
    • Blu-ray was released in 2006

    All physical media is becoming obsolete thanks to Internet-based Services and digital media. People started burning their audio and video physical media to harddrives well before Blu-Ray was released. And most physical media comes with a download certificate for its digital counterpart.

    Point being... taking sides in the HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray war, and bragging about it, is on par with picking sides in a Tennis Shoe battle in an era where the primary form of Transportation is the Motor Vehicle, which is most enjoyable while wearing Flip Flops  :|
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  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 5,047 Volunteer Moderator
    Atmos73 said:
    Its a HUGE problem with the Oculus business model. FB need OH to be exclusive to sell their headsets. As soon as OH goes the way of OpenXR people can buy any HMD without the need for Revive. The Vive with Lighthouse has allways been more popular over the Rifts constellation system despite the Rifts more competitive price. How is FB going to stop the slow decline in Rift sales when Vive has direct access to the expensive AAA titles FB are investing in? OH can't survive with OpenXR, the Rift can't survive with Constalation and with Valve, Zenimax and HTC all throwing down AAA titles it's hard to see where FB will go In 2018.
    What? Oculus doesn't need exclusives to sell headsets, the headsets are practically selling themselves. They need exclusives to prop up the Oculus store while they go head to head with the 500 pound gorilla that is Steam, who practically own the entire PC digital game market.

    More quality titles means more users in the Oculus ecosystem, which means that Oculus can partake in the real prize, which is a share of the emerging VR software marketplace. Why do you think Valve doesn't sell their own hardware? They know where the money is.

    HTC is the one with the real business model problem. They bust their ass trying to make a profit on cutting edge tech in what has become an extremely competitive market, while Valve sits there laughing and and collects the money for doing very little. When HTC collapses, LG or someone else will step in to take their place, and Steam will go right on collecting money.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,626 Valuable Player
    edited August 2017
    This price cut isn't HTC's first act of desperation either. Did anyone see the Paris Hilton debacle?? :D

    The quick version:

    First, HTC props up Paris Hilton with a completely "unconnected" Vive



    Next, they tweet about this and then get trolled harder than the Flat Earth Society... causing them to take down the tweet and abandon ship:
    https://mobile.twitter.com/HTCeSports/status/748665705256480769

    This was all at the end of June. And here we are some 6 weeks later, and price cuts are their last bastion of hope. If they want the price cut to be effective, they need to drop it more. It's still too expensive.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4qq1bm/htc_uses_vr_guru_paris_hilton_to_promote_the_vive/

    https://press-start.com.au/news/2016/07/01/paris-hilton-new-face-virtual-retality/


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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,153 Valuable Player
    And LG will be in almost as much trouble as HTC as far as making money goes. Their headset is going to be cheaper than the Vive due to using Lighthouse 2.0 and LG manufacturing their own display panels but they're ONLY going to be making money on the hardware.

    If I was a company looking to manufacture a VR headset I'd approach Oculus instead of Valve because the Constellation system is so much cheaper to produce, even when you take Lighthouse 2.0 into account. I'm surprised that nobody has done this before now tbh.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

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  • madamluckmadamluck Posts: 141
    Art3mis
    I haven't read the comments but I did see about the vive price cut.... I think it's great. Many people will jump on buying it I'm sure. It will help the vr world boom more.  I only wish people would stop with the 'who's better' war. Imo That's what's hurting vr community. You dont have to like both companies but throwing one or the other under the bus just continues to add fuel to the fire. We should be celebrating the growth of vr and all these sales 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,626 Valuable Player
    edited August 2017
    madamluck said:
    We should be celebrating the growth of vr and all these sales 
    Competition and rivalries are what stimulate the growth of any industry, including VR. There are countless examples that span many years of human industry... even the old days of barter/trade.

    Case in point, the Vive's price cut is a response to the Rift's price cut. Price cutting is an aggressive strategy to win a price war.

    Aggression. War. These are the tenets of growth. Heck, we can even start at the beginning of all existence: the big bang. That is the single most violent act in all the cosmos, and life couldn't be possible without it ;)
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  • madamluckmadamluck Posts: 141
    Art3mis
    @Zenbane yeah competition is good as it drives people/companies to push forward more and I agree vive wouldn't have dropped their prices if it wasn't for the rift sale. But as I said , sales are good! Those who are on the sidelines hesitate about jumping on the vr wagon now are ready to jump.I just hate the fighting between vive and rift owners though. The whole who's better debate gets sooo old really quick. And it definitely doesn't help those who are interested in buying. 
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,821 Valuable Player
    Seen some comments here about Lighthouse 2.0. and the LG (PC) headset. Just for clarification both of these platforms are intended for commercial application primarily over consumer application (at the beginning).

    In particular the LG headset (not the one linked to Daydream) that was seen at GDC was a prototype of a commercial (enterprise) system that is being evaluated by a number of parties for Out-of-Home entertainment deployment as an alternative to the HTC BE platform.


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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,626 Valuable Player
    madamluck said:
    The whole who's better debate gets sooo old really quick. And it definitely doesn't help those who are interested in buying. 
    Well see... if that were true then how do we explain the success of the Console industry? Atari, Sega, Nintendo, PlayStation, Xbox... those community wars (aka console wars) have been running rampant for years; and are far uglier than anything these VR debates portray.

    Yet the console industry continues to thrive, and is now entering VR itself!

    Even Sports entertainment (e.g. Soccer) tends to draw in fans solely for the community rivalries.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,626 Valuable Player
    kevinw729 said:
    Seen some comments here about Lighthouse 2.0. and the LG (PC) headset. Just for clarification both of these platforms are intended for commercial application primarily over consumer application (at the beginning).
    I didn't really want this to be true, as I was hoping that Location-Based VR was merely a side-benefit of the Lighthouse 2.0 tracking. But apparently this is the tracking that will let us stay in VR at our local grocery stores...

    This higher speed digital link opens up the capability of using more than two base stations. Multiple base stations installations are useful for digital out of home experiences, arcades, “house-scale” tracking, and non-VR tracking applications such as warehouse-scale or grocery-store-scale tracking.

    All you need to know about SteamVR Tracking 2.0… will it be the foundation of Vive 2?

    https://skarredghost.com/2017/06/07/need-know-steamvr-tracking-2-0-will-foundation-vive-2/


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  • vannagirlvannagirl Posts: 2,005 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    Well see... if that were true then how do we explain the success of the Console industry? Atari, Sega, Nintendo, PlayStation, Xbox... those community wars (aka console wars) have been running rampant for years; and are far uglier than anything these VR debates portray.

    Yet the console industry continues to thrive, and is now entering VR itself!

    Even Sports entertainment (e.g. Soccer) tends to draw in fans solely for the community rivalries.
    So true

    Afghans shooting in my direction were Team Taliban...damm them

    Also this weekend its MMA Vs Boxing
    McGregor Vs Money

    Competition works !! :)


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    so come at me!"
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  • Sax-a-boomSax-a-boom Posts: 731
    3Jane
    Is it just me or does PH's headset look photoshopped on, not to mention the vive box and fake cable?

    Also, strike me down with lightening but @Zenbane is bang on with his competition argument. While I want to see some commonality between systems, I don't want everyone jumping into bed with each other. Another tech example, the only time I remember Intel going pedal to the metal was when AMD brought out the Athlon and really challenged them in all segments. Now it's small increments and just to keep the wheels turning. 

    It's early days in VR and I want to see bloodied fingernails as everyone tries to climb to the top, not high fives and manicures.
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