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Windows Mixed Reality presentation

JimmyMcVideoJimmyMcVideo Posts: 15
NerveGear
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/10/03/the-era-of-windows-mixed-reality-begins-october-17/

This presentation approaches parody numerous times. 

But what do you think? 
«1

Comments

  • RoasterRoaster Posts: 1,053
    3Jane
    I think the MS enthusiasm for VR is a good thing, but Oculus needs to get in on it somehow.
    If the Windows - VR integration takes off Oculus will be left behind no matter how good a system it is. I don't think OVR can wait until 2019-2020 to do something.
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  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,760 Valuable Player
    edited October 2017
    Wow I was a bit blow away:)) Now that is cool! And cheap :O! 499 for everything? Was a steal:)!!

    Only thing I saw that I knew was going to be a problem was the tracking of the hand controllers. They look like they drifted just a bit when not facing the two front facing cameras. So if you are looking for a bit more acc on the tracking - they will be a bit lacking - but a good range for where it was being track. I think it's a worth trade off for not having to have external cameras or stations around the room. 

    The MS looks to be a good middle ground for higher in VR and low end VR. You can tell a difference for sure where they will be standing in line compare to the rest. Oculus + Vive for high end, MSVR for middle, and finally Phone VR for lower end.
  • dburnedburne Posts: 3,532 Valuable Player
    I received a survey from MS a few weeks ago, specifically about VR. I went ahead and completed the survey - they were asking some good questions on the way I use my Rift.  In my case pretty much PC gaming. Even asked what games I had, listing several of the good Oculus Games. And they had a place for other where I listed my combat  flight simulation games.


    Don

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  • SiilkSiilk Posts: 112
    Art3mis
    Cringy as hell lol. Integration of desktop applications into VR is neat but the ease of use doesn't seem particularly better than what you can expect from BigScreen or steam's VR desktop; even the pointer is equally shaky lol. Plus no real application interactions were shown(especially no textual or command input), just a bit of fiddling with a cursor. All in all, nothing ground breaking and barely any advantages over steam VR home(oculus, take notes: people need VR desktop as a part of their VR home!).

    It's also surprising to see no AR as all. Every mention of "mixed reality" was essentially an MS way to refer to VR as the whole presentation was revolving around the pure-VR environments.
    Mradr said:
    499 for everything?
    He said "starting at 499", so I expect it to be more like $499 for a basic level headset higher-res headsets costing more and  motion controllers being extra.



  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,155 Valuable Player
    Gosh, I've been involved with MS for 2 decades now and these "presentations" really are formulaic. I've lost count of how many of these professional presentations have come and gone without ever having their promised stardom realized.

    MS is confused about the niche it wants to master, it just assumes "Mixed Reality Everywhere" in a very Pokemon Go style strategy. I'm always rooting for MS but I also know their limitations (and the pitfalls of their miscalculated obsessions).

    I laughed at the Cortana piece... 'cause really, who the heck uses Cortana in a serious capacity? MS has been trying hard to have a mascot for years. Anyone remember this fella?





    I prefer Alexa, and I have her in my home. I do talk to Alexa often while using my Oculus Rift. Mostly to set timers so that I don't spend too many hours lost in VR, and also to tell me the Time.

    Windows MS really isn't offering anything distinctive in VR that I have seen just yet. It's only distinctive feature is AR which I still have zero interest in experiencing. The biggest take-away from all this is the Social Media aspect; and in this video we see AltSpaceVR as the choice for Windows Mixed Reality.

    This will attempt to rival Facebook Spaces and the Rift. But I'm sure we can all agree that the billions using Facebook are better suited for Facebook Spaces than the dozens using AltSpaceVR.

    Either way, the competition will prove to lead towards innovation. But unless someone has throw-away cash, I'd sit back for another year with the Rift and watch Microsoft try to get a handle on this new product line. MS has a long hard road ahead, and they will be dealing with quite the 'reality check' (pun intended) when they attempt mass production and support globally.
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  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,760 Valuable Player
    edited October 2017
    Siilk said:
    Mradr said:
    499 for everything?
    He said "starting at 499", so I expect it to be more like $499 for a basic level headset higher-res headsets costing more and  motion controllers being extra.
    Unless I am crazy and not hearing the world "just starting" he said they will just retail - meaning it's 499 with controllers at the 32:20 time slot.

    Either way - It is a step in the right direction getting all this integrated into the headset will go a long way for mass adoption rate to continue going forward and that means more software sells that in turns means more software that will keep getting created. VR does have a long way to go before it'll have the power to replace keyboard. The mouse has been replaced many times over already - but the keyboard always seem to stick around:) will be interesting what VR will come up with to replace that in the near future.

    Hand tracking + a square piece of track plastic to be like a phone style keyboard replacement? Clip the plastic to the controller when you don't need it. I am joking a bit:) but who knows - maybe that is what we need to do to take the keyboard with us anywhere.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,503 Valuable Player
    Like most women in my life both Alexa and Cortana tell me to fuck off and leave them alone or they'll call the police. If they were in a car they would 'do a @vannagirl' and try to run me over. :(
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • SiilkSiilk Posts: 112
    Art3mis
    edited October 2017

    Mradr said:
    Siilk said:
    Mradr said:
    499 for everything?
    He said "starting at 499", so I expect it to be more like $499 for a basic level headset higher-res headsets costing more and  motion controllers being extra.
    Unless I am crazy and not hearing the world "just starting" he said they will just retail - meaning it's 499 with controllers at the 32:20 time slot.
    Not crazy, just inattentive ;) Starting at 6:08, "From convenience we move to choice .... range of innovative headsets and motion controllers starting at $399 ....". He later mentions $499 as a price for HMD+controllers, but again never specifically describes if it's the price for the flagship specs with no hidden costs. Yet, base price is comparable with current gen HMDs but I do wonder what specs are we talking about here? And, more to the point, what is their planned price for the full set of premium HMD + motion controllers + other required periphery? Still, $500 ballpark seems like something we can expect to be the target price for the 2nd gen VR headsets.

    Mradr said:
    Hand tracking + a square piece of track plastic to be like a phone style keyboard replacement? Clip the plastic to the controller when you don't need it. I am joking a bit:) but who knows - maybe that is what we need to do to take the keyboard with us anywhere.
    Piece of plastic requires a desk to put in onto, at which point having an actual keyboard is actually makes more sense. With inside-out tracking it should be possible to scan it and project it into VR so you will be able to look at what you're pressing.

    The real problem is typing while in roomscale, i.e. while standing at an arbitrary spot in your room. Unless you strap something to yourself, there's nothing to place your hands onto so keyboard must be purely virtual. One possible approach here is to have a virtual keyboard, usable with touch controllers or finder gestures, given of course we will get a reliable finger tracking, be it via gloves, knuckle-like controller or direct finger tracking. This is a most direct approach but it's downside it that typing speed will be limited due to touch-typing not being possible and the prolonged use be inconvenient due to muscle fatigue as you will have to keep your hands in the air with no surface to place them onto.

    Another option is to use the voice recognition. This approach increases the input speed and removes the muscle strain(though sore throat might be a problem) but any special symbols, precise combination of letters and punctuation symbols and special hotkey input will not be easily achievable that way. Besides, given speech-to-text is still not picked up in any serious way despite being available for over 3 decades now, I have doubts in it's viability as a main VR textual input. I do however expect it to be a handy little tool for entering short snippets of text available across all VR applications.

    Yet another option(and this is a really interesting one), is to come up with an entirely new kind of input, specifically tailored for VR. Say a system of finger gestures, not unlike a sign language or "handwriting in the air". Or a way of selecting a letter via a combination of a controller movement and pressed buttons. Or maybe touch-sensitive surfaces on the side of the controllers providing some sort of input medium. In general, I really think that VR, being a new way of facilitating human to computer computer interaction, should call for an equally new approach to the way all the building blocks of said interactions are designed. And I am certainly looking forward to see what VR developers will be able to come up with.
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,760 Valuable Player
    edited October 2017
    O.o! I still don't see where you are seeing this Siilk

    "Now, I'm so excited about this headset that I've been wearing it for disentire presentation. I'm excited to announce that the Samsung  headset with motion controllers will retail for just $499. That's right. The full range..."
    He says JUST not starting LOL I don't think they will JUST sell you the headset they will want you to have the controllers as well for a little while. As for the plastic - what do you mean sit it down? This my idea is when you are standing up and you use it like a cell phone:)) no different than what everyone is doing right now xD it makes total sense to use the a tracking peice of plastic (like everyone is today) and project the keyboard onto it. It can even have some feedback if you want to let the users know the press a key then strap it onto the controller when done.

    As for sitting down in VR - sure yea you are better off using a keyboard then with a mouse, but to replace the keyboard while standing up - I think my silly idea would go a long way and wouldn't really require much. Hell - the dam thing could be battery operated and last for months as all it would really have is some touch input and a few LEDs. Dam thing could last forever lol

    Other than that - I don't really see how to replace VR input. Who wants to talk out loud every time they want to do something? "TURN PORN PAGE" xD Nooo LOL! As for hand gestures - it never has work out in the past and never will really. Sure it might have some use for some things - but overall it's kind of a dead way of doing it. Don't believe me? Do you know sign langue well enough to talk to me in it? I am betting the other 95% of the population doesn't either:)) I am joking a bit, but it's kind of the same idea though... I think there isn't going to be a good way of doing it for a while. The keyboard on phones and the keyboard we use in everyday life is just soo perfect in the design it'll just be too hard to get rid of it or replace it any time soon. The best thing we can do is somehow figure out a way to bring it with us in a easy fashion. That is why I think the plastic style phone keyboard would work well in this case.

  • SiilkSiilk Posts: 112
    Art3mis

    Mradr said:
    O.o! I still don't see where you are seeing this Siilk

    "Now, I'm so excited about this headset that I've been wearing it for disentire presentation. I'm excited to announce that the Samsung  headset with motion controllers will retail for just $499. That's right. The full range..."
    He says JUST not starting LOL I don't think they will JUST sell you the headset they will want you to have the controllers as well for a little while.
    My assumption comes from what he said at the 6 minute mark(see my previous post). The phrasing it a bit ambiguous in both instances(at 6 min and 32 min) so while I see why see it the way you see it I still have a feeling it might not be the actual price for the top hardware line. But there's not much time left till the release so we'll see it for ourselves soon enough.
    Mradr said:
     As for the plastic - what do you mean sit it down? This my idea is when you are standing up and you use it like a cell phone:))
    I see what you mean now, I thought you were suggesting a substitute for a full-sized keyboard. Yeah, this might work though I do wonder if the size would be too small for the current gen display resolution(i.e .key layout visible in VR might be too low res to see clearly unless kept close to the face). However having a higher res headset will address that so this shouldn't be a problem for gen 2 and up.
    Mradr said:
    Other than that - I don't really see how to replace VR input. Who wants to talk out loud every time they want to do something? "TURN PORN PAGE" xD Nooo LOL! As for hand gestures - it never has work out in the past and never will really. Sure it might have some use for some things - but overall it's kind of a dead way of doing it. Don't believe me? Do you know sign langue well enough to talk to me in it? I am betting the other 95% of the population doesn't either:)) I am joking a bit, but it's kind of the same idea though... I think there isn't going to be a good way of doing it for a while. The keyboard on phones and the keyboard we use in everyday life is just soo perfect in the design it'll just be too hard to get rid of it or replace it any time soon. The best thing we can do is somehow figure out a way to bring it with us in a easy fashion. That is why I think the plastic style phone keyboard would work well in this case.

    I think you are missing my point. This time we live in, the dawn of VR(assuming it will actually become mainstream technology this time around), is in my opinion something akin to the dawn of typewriters. When typewriters were first invented they were rather awkward and, obviously, no one ever had any typing skills not to mention the ability to touch-type. Handwriting on the other hand was familiar to everyone and could be utilised for a much faster output of written text. However with time people learned to use the keyboard input of typewriters and, much later, computers to the point of typing becoming an ubiquitous and essential skill practically replacing the handwriting in our modern computer-centric world. It was, to some extent, true for mobile phone keyboards as well, which required a different way of typing(i.e. learning the two-thumb typing or swipe input) and while not as dramatic, the transition was still noticeable.

    So I expect something similarly ground-breaking to emerge for VR, some kind of input which will be nothing like we had before, or maybe a combination of some existing input methods which will end up becoming something bigger than just a sum of it's parts. I believe so because VR as a whole provides a lot of new possibilities(ability to track many more elements of a human body, ability to create interactive virtual objects natively perceivable as existing around the VR user) all while removing some key elements required for the existing input methods(lack of a static position in the real space for roomscale VR, lack of visual interaction with real space in for non-AR applications). All that, in my opinion, contributes to the situation where some radically new input strategy is necessary. Something that people will have to learn to appreciate and as time will pass eventually use as a main way of VR input. I of course expect virtual keyboards to be dominant in the near future but I cannot see it as an input mode most suitable for VR in the long run.


  • PablitoPablito Posts: 361
    Trinity
    edited October 2017
    This was an impressive presentation, but in actuality everything I witnessed in the link I'm doin already with Oculus(minus the augmented reality for now).  When the day comes where every standard spec HMD offers full VR/AR, inside-out tracking and a 4k or 8k display, then I'll be wetting my pants.  As, for this, cool but not caring much.  Right now, if I had to choose between only having AR or only having VR, I choose VR.  I want tech. that has the power to completely bring me to another world rather than just enhance the current world I'm in.  Not saying my thinking is the right or wrong way to see the issue, it's just me.
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,385 Valuable Player
    edited October 2017
    So I would imagine we are not far off Oculus announcing compatibility with this. Considering Oculus partnered with Microsoft on the controllers and Xbox streaming. He also mentions other HMD's launching soon.

    I reckon it already works with the headset and controllers but the bit Oculus are working on at the moment is the Oculus Store. No point in launching with Steam only games available.


  • OLLI_SOLLI_S Posts: 40
    Brain Burst
    Sorry, but I did not read all topics above.

    I really hope that Oculus works on drivers that male the Rift and the touch controllers fully compatible with Windows Mixed Reality.
    Otherwise users will buy the Windows Mixed Reality headsets (that are cheaper and that don't need any external sensors).

  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,163 Valuable Player
    Inside out tracking has yet to be proven as reliable as sensors or lighthouse equivalents. There seems still to be a lot of dancing round the whole "obscured controllers" argument concerning the level of quality of tracking on the WinMR platform.

    For me the big issue is if MS will rough it out and ignore criticism as Sony has done regarding PSVR's equally poor tracking component, or will they see this as a iterative process that guarantees constant investment?

    Another question, could the PC high-end be sidelined by these cheaper easier WinMR solutions? With OVR and HTC both seeming to be embroiled in a "wait till 2019" position on their CV2 solution - the field is open.
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  • OLLI_SOLLI_S Posts: 40
    Brain Burst
    I read an test in the German c't magazine and they said that in a first test the Mixed Reality Hardware works very well (also the controllers).

    But my fears go into an other direction.
    I bought the Oculus Rift DK2 and also the CV1 including the Touch Controllers.
    And I want to keep them.

    But in a worse scenario Oculus does not make the Rift compatible with the Windows Mixed Reality.
    I think that in Steam many games will be compatible with Mixed Reality and developers will focus on this platform (one platform that supports multiple hardware).
    So in the future it could be that many new games are compatible with the Windows Mixed Reality hardware only but not with the Oculus Rift.
    Especially when Valve makes the HTC Vive compatible with Windows Mixed Reality.

    So if Oculus does not make the Rift compatible with Windows Mixed Reality, then it could be that this is the starting death of Oculus.
    Why should people buy hardware that is not compatible with the standard?
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,503 Valuable Player
    I don't think that Oculus has any worries where Windows VR (I'm refusing to call it Mixed Reality!) is concerned. At some point someone (probably the guy that developed Revive) will create a wrapper for UWP games, and if not then there won't be that many decent games available on the Microsoft Store that aren't available either in the Oculus Store or Steam.

    In fact any developer with any sense will be using the OculusSDK because that works in SteamVR natively for Rift headsets and via a translation layer for Vive headsets, and that translation layer (or a separate one?) should take care of Windows VR headset compatibility.

    As for the hardware sales I also don't think that Oculus have anything to worry about. Yes, the field is open, but some time during the next 6 months the $400/£400 price will be a permanent price cut which will continue to have Rifts flying off shelves. If anyone has any worries about Windows VR headsets it will be HTC and LG because their headsets are so much more expensive to produce.
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  • 24_7gaminghub24_7gaminghub Posts: 546
    Nexus 6
    Sorry, but Oculus will never be left behind. Everyone needs to buy a facebook device.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,163 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    I don't think that Oculus has any worries where Windows VR (I'm refusing to call it Mixed Reality!) is concerned. At some point someone (probably the guy that developed Revive) will create a wrapper for UWP games, and if not then there won't be that many decent games available on the Microsoft Store that aren't available either in the Oculus Store or Steam.
    ....

    I would normally agree with you - but we have to be mindful that MS can be incredibly intransigent at times, and have also proven themselves very litigious regarding developers creating emulators to get round issues with MS gaming and software platforms. I am sure that MS and Valve are deep in discussions over the WinMR / SteamVR support strategy. But I just cant see that happening with MS and FB at this time... may be later?
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  • AndyW1384AndyW1384 Posts: 307
    Trinity
    kevinw729 said:
    snowdog said:
    I don't think that Oculus has any worries where Windows VR (I'm refusing to call it Mixed Reality!) is concerned. At some point someone (probably the guy that developed Revive) will create a wrapper for UWP games, and if not then there won't be that many decent games available on the Microsoft Store that aren't available either in the Oculus Store or Steam.
    ....

    I would normally agree with you - but we have to be mindful that MS can be incredibly intransigent at times, and have also proven themselves very litigious regarding developers creating emulators to get round issues with MS gaming and software platforms. I am sure that MS and Valve are deep in discussions over the WinMR / SteamVR support strategy. But I just cant see that happening with MS and FB at this time... may be later?
    Presumably a lot depends on whether the OpenXR group manage to come up with an open VR standard that works (and actually gets adopted), and if so how long it takes them. If that comes along soon enough, then presumably both Oculus SDK and OpenVR will be re-written/modified to support it, and MS would have to choose between pursuing their own incompatible standard or going with the crowd.

    I do note that MS aren't members of the OpenXR working group, so I suppose it's possible they'll try and bury OpenXR and push their own standard. Would that be a plausible strategy for them?
  • DeanJLewisDeanJLewis Posts: 1
    NerveGear
    I don't agree "As for hand gestures - it never has work out in the past and never will really."
    Today there are 3 types of gesture recognition - camera-based, glove, IMU-based. Camera-based like Leap Motion, glove like Manus VR glove, IMU-based like AirSig gesture recognition SDK. Although all have their pros and cons, but Gesture recognition technologies advanced. And they may complement each other. If you need to track hands and fingers, Leap Motion and Manus glove may help. If you need accurate gesture recognition or even authentication in VR, then AirSig SDK is the best-fit.

    Dean
  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,422 Volunteer Moderator
    edited November 2017

    AndyW1384 said:
    I do note that MS aren't members of the OpenXR working group, so I suppose it's possible they'll try and bury OpenXR and push their own standard. Would that be a plausible strategy for them?

    https://www.roadtovr.com/microsoft-joins-openxr-becoming-decisive-backer-open-royalty-free-vrar-standard/

    Edit: Ah, that post was a month old. MS joined last week. :)

  • OLLI_SOLLI_S Posts: 40
    Brain Burst
    I fear that Oculus is left behind and looses connection if they don't make the Rift compatible with Windows Mixed Reality
  • RoasterRoaster Posts: 1,053
    3Jane
    The Rift already runs in the Windows environment, but WMR doesn't see the Rift.  
    With Dash we can run Windows apps in the headset, and the controls work, so what do we gain running WMR content directly? Cliff House for one, but Dash should do basically the same thing, I think.
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  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,422 Volunteer Moderator
    OLLI_S said:
    I fear that Oculus is left behind and looses connection if they don't make the Rift compatible with Windows Mixed Reality
    The Windows store is pretty worthless for VR at the moment, everybody is counting on Win MR getting steam vr support for the real software, and Oculus is already there.

  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,385 Valuable Player
    Great news more users, more VR Sales, More Content.
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,328
    Project 2501
    Can someone please explain to me what these MR HMD's are, are they the same thing as the Rift? I still don't get what they're or what they're for.
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,503 Valuable Player
    Can someone please explain to me what these MR HMD's are, are they the same thing as the Rift? I still don't get what they're or what they're for.

    They're VR headsets, but of lower quality. I always call them WVR headsets instead of WMR headsets. They have a slightly higher resolution but a smaller sweet spot. They're basically mid-range headsets compared to the Rift and Vive being high-end.

    Anyone getting one of these things instead of a Rift is either insane or hasn't done any sort of research. At all.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • SiilkSiilk Posts: 112
    Art3mis
    snowdog said:
    Can someone please explain to me what these MR HMD's are, are they the same thing as the Rift? I still don't get what they're or what they're for.

    They're VR headsets, but of lower quality. I always call them WVR headsets instead of WMR headsets. They have a slightly higher resolution but a smaller sweet spot. They're basically mid-range headsets compared to the Rift and Vive being high-end.

    Anyone getting one of these things instead of a Rift is either insane or hasn't done any sort of research. At all.
    I think I should mention that the first and foremost "mid-range" feature is a less precise tracking due to beaconless inside-out approach. Which means those headset have hand motion tracking deadzones behind and at the sides of the player; you can expect tracking performance to be somewhat close to rift's 2-sensor roomscale.

    Resolution, viewport and overall image quality will differ from headset to headset and while it is expected of the combination of all three to be somewhat lower than the one of the high-end gen 1 headsets, it is often comparable. For instance, I found that image quality of Dell WinVR headset to be almost(if not outright) superior to Rift's(screendoor effect was noticeably less obvious) but I cannot say the same about other brands I tried.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,503 Valuable Player
    The small sweet spot is also a big problem from reviews I've seen and read. A bit pointless having higher resolution when it's difficult to find the sweet spot to see it tbh.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
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