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The Pimax 8K MEGA Thread - First Reviews Now live

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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 8,051 Valuable Player
    pi max 8k has twice the resolution of the rift  (1080 * 2), and twice as much fov roughly (200 to 110). to my simple understanding thats the same rift performance, by a little less quality, but about the same picture, not much difference, but on a 200 fov.

    to do this the pi max 8k uses a frame upscaler and a lower resolution than 4k for video input and upscales that to 4k. that makes the image worse.

    but this adds blur to the picture that might pass off as no screen door effect.

    to my simple eyes if the blurred picture looks good, no screen door effect, and has a 200 fov, then all it needs is a 90 fps and a good sweet spot init? but it doesnt have a good sweet spot or am i wrong on that?

    From what I've seen (and it's difficult to see things properly on videos) the sweet spot looks to be somewhere between the size of the Rift's sweet spot and the size of the Vive's sweet spot. So not too shabby at all, although this is what I've seen of v2.0 and these things are liable to change before the things release.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • CmdrGoodDeathCmdrGoodDeath Posts: 20
    Brain Burst
    reefy86 said:
    jesus christ its never ending lol :) like i said before, it doesn't matter how good the pimax 8k will be because as off right now its just wishful thinking until that headset is in your hands and does what they are saying it will do. I wish pimax all the best but can they keep up with their promises and maintain fully working headsets and software throughout the first year? Oculus still has small issue's now and they have alot more money and man power.
    I bet they do have a lot more money. Especially after cutting so many corners and putting out products riddled with bugs.
  • reefy86reefy86 Posts: 238
    Nexus 6
    This thread is so back to front. Look the rift is out and the number one headset with oculus dedicating their time to improving software and features rather then rushing to make a better headset. They do not and i mean do not need to compete with anyone as of yet because nothing exists until its out for people to buy and test. The only people who have cut corners is pimax them self because what they should of done is improved on their 4k headset but instead they jumped straight to the 8k while oculus is making things alot more fun for us. 
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,803 Valuable Player
    CmdrGoodDeath said:
    I bet they do have a lot more money. Especially after cutting so many corners and putting out products riddled with bugs.

    This argument cut some corners and is riddled with flaws. Plus the post overall had bugs since you couldn't even use the quote function correctly lol
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 8,051 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 said:
    Zenbane said:
    Atmos73 said:
    Oculus currently only have one headset.

    Oculus has 3 headsets: DK1, DK2, CV1. 

    Oculus powers another: GearVR

    Oculus is relasing 2 more soon: GO, Santa Cruz
    Oculus only support one HMD - CV1

    Samsung build the GearVR

    Santa Cruz and ‘GO’ don’t have release dates.

    Pimax will have the 4k, 5k and 8k by January 2018 aaaaannnndddd the 8k X later in the year.

    Actually they're STILL supporting the DK2 too...although why ANYONE would want to use one of those instead of a CV1 and Touch bundle is beyond me.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 8,051 Valuable Player
    vannagirl said:
    Time for a timeout??

    I hear jack daniels is pretty good  :)

    Not bad for a bourbon, but if you want a top drawer alcoholic beverage then you'd have to go for Bushmill's Black Bush or Jameson's. JD is for peasants :p
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • MorgrumMorgrum Posts: 1,822 Valuable Player
    Have to agree JD sucks go for the woodford reserve.
    Though I did pick up a bottle of spade and bushel small batch when I was in Ireland last year and ive been hordeing it!
    WAAAGH!
  • stateofstaticstateofstatic Posts: 13
    NerveGear
    Pendleton Reserve is pretty decent for the money.

    @snowdog the V3 sweet spot is bigger than the rift by a large margin based on my first hand use...I have no idea vs the vive since I have never had facetime with it other than a prototype that intel had for a bit. 

    @Zenbane you say rift was roomscale from the beginning? Why would they use low rez IR then?  I recall Luckey saying 12/2015 "the setup works fine, and later responded that the 15×11 setup “is limited by the room, not the sensors.”

    ...except you can't place two sensors more than 14' apart DIAGONALLY.  I tried, they don't detect each other...have three sensors btw.  It was a makeshift attempt to keep up with the Vive's capability, when they engineered the product to be a standing/sit-down in one place experience.

    Why didn't the Rift have a camera if all HTC was doing was ripping off their innovation as you claim.  They use completely different tech other than the base hmd internals.  Pimax on the other hand is DEFINITELY ripping off the Vive.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,803 Valuable Player
    @Zenbane you say rift was roomscale from the beginning? 

    Yes. 

    It doesn't matter though, all software titles worth playing implement movement via hand-controllers. Lots of typing doesn't change that fact.
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  • vannagirlvannagirl Posts: 2,020 Valuable Player
    Skipped the morning coffee today huh??
    Look, man. I only need to know one thing: where they are. 
  • vannagirlvannagirl Posts: 2,020 Valuable Player
    Morgrum said:
    Have to agree JD sucks go for the woodford reserve.
    Though I did pick up a bottle of spade and bushel small batch when I was in Ireland last year and ive been hordeing it!
    I am a simple girl, i likes my JD & Jim Beam :)
    Look, man. I only need to know one thing: where they are. 
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 6,352 Volunteer Moderator
    I found a 24 pack of Budweiser in the shed left over from a summer BBQ, you're all invited
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  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 5,006 Valuable Player
    Atmos73 said:
    Okay Pimax is 2k
    Oculus havd 20 headsets
    Valve didn’t fix the Pimax resolution
    Vive Wands are crap
    Pimax 8k is going to be crsp
    No other HMD is worthy of purchase because Oculus are perfect USB rats nest is excellent Touch can’t be bettered and the price of Rift is amazing.

    The rest of us live in some fantasy world where we wear blinkers and convince are selves into wasting money buying anything else.

    I’ve gone past trying to produce facts. SteamVR produces render values. Pimax explain their resolution but let’s not believe them. Let’s fly in the face of reality and go With a company that’s announces solids facts and figures and release dates like ‘GO’ and ‘Santa Cruz’






    Oh, sarcasm now eh?

    Passive-aggressive eh?

    Such an angry man, Atmos...   :D
  • JeanpicassoJeanpicasso Posts: 14
    NerveGear
    I do enjoy this thread. specially like seeing Atmos more or less ill thought through argument and baseless speculations getting pummeled for the better part of 22 pages, and yet keeps comming back with even more garbage claims.  

    I am very impressed with Zenbanes stamina to keep putting all the bad or false arguments to shame, and there sure seem to be a lot of them..

  • EliteSPAEliteSPA Posts: 1,560
    Project 2501
    I think it's all lies that surround this new HMD
    All you have to do is watch the kind of videos that are uploaded on their channel, the one that made me laugh is from the factory hahaha. 

    They already screwed us with the PIMAX 4K, what a disgusting HMD.

    Their videos show almost nothing, fps, graphics load, refresh rate.

    Summary it seems to me that more than one will be surprised when you have it at home and see that it works below 90 hz and will be very difficult to maintain those fps in high resolutions.

    I forgot, it's not 8k is a viewfinder with 2 4k panels.

    Waiting for the new HTC HMD coming out 2018.

    Regards.
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  • reefy86reefy86 Posts: 238
    Nexus 6
    I want him to pick on me but its not working :( zenbrane needs to give us some tips
  • MorgrumMorgrum Posts: 1,822 Valuable Player
    I spent a year inside a JD bottle after katrina I wont touch the stuff now.
    Dont drink much anymore either....
    WAAAGH!
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 8,051 Valuable Player
    Morgrum said:
    I spent a year inside a JD bottle after katrina I wont touch the stuff now.
    Dont drink much anymore either....

    I hardly drink at all these days. I just have a pint every now and then just to test whether I still have my allergy or not.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • iJudgementiJudgement Posts: 183
    Art3mis
    kojack said:
    I get some sleep, go to work, and now there's 60 posts in here to read. :(

    Atmos73 said:
    Things changed. The original render was 2560x1440 which gave the stretching. Then Valve got onboard and fixed SteamVR to output 4096x2657. No more stretching.


    First, that's not the reason for stretching (by which I assume you mean the distortions it used to have), it was because SteamVR was rendering low FOV then Pimax was stretching it to high FOV. You can't do that, it distorts. Upscaling FOV is very different to upscaling resolution. But we've discussed this before.

    But if this is true, is everybody who ordered a Pimax 8K X getting a $200 refund? The difference between the 8K and 8K X was:
    - 8K can only handle 2560x1440 over the cable, which is upscaled on the headset to 4K.
    - 8K X can handle 4K per eye by using 2 cables
    Now you are saying that Valve have somehow magically made the cable send more data so the 8K is now equal to an 8K X. So what's the difference between them now?
    (See, this is why I don't like kickstarters like this, things keep changing, you have no idea what the final product will be)

    Or is SteamVR outputting 4096x2657, which is downscaled to 2560x1440, which is upscaled to 3840x2160? That seems more likely and nothing has changed in the headset, it's just more marketing.


    Now as to the whole 8K issue.
    There's two common definitions of 8K that could apply when doing VR rendering:
    - 8192 x 8192 textures (textures are usually square, so just give one dimension)
    - 7680 x 4320 (tv standard)

    Using 8K as a marketing term is problematic because it doesn't meet either of those (it's half the pixel count of an 8K TV and one quarter of the pixel count of an 8K texture). But even more importantly you don't actually see 8K horizontal res because of stereo overlap. You don't have 7680 pixels spread over 200 degrees. If the per eye FOV is 150 degrees, then that means you have only 5120 horizontal res visible.
    (150 degrees per eye, 200 degrees total means 50 degrees left mono, 100 degrees stereo overlap, 50 degrees right mono. This becomes 1280 pixels mono, 2560 stereo overlap, 1280 mono, which is 5120 actual visible pixels).

    The correct way to refer to the Pimax 8K resolution would either be 3840x2160 per eye or 4K per eye. Not just 8K.


    Anyway, I've wasted far too many words recently on this.
    Complaints have come in about this thread, expect mod actions like closing or bans to follow if things don't improve in here (which of course isn't going to happen, the destiny of this thread was clear from the very beginning).

    Remember, this is an Oculus support forum run by Oculus, Pimax have their own forum where you can talk about them as much as you want.
    I understand how you feel. This post is always being updated... Luckily I can read it at work.
  • MradrMradr Posts: 4,178 Valuable Player
    edited November 2017
    Now that we have that understood - the question then becomes: Why not aim for higher res if they really are using a base of 2k instead of 1k? The cable itself only needs enough bandwidth to carry the 2k single, so why not do a real 1:1 scaling option and go 1:1 output per eye? Now that would be impressive:) I would so consider that such a jump in pixel count to be it's own gift from god:))

    Then again you be beating Samsung to their 11k display they are working on a while back: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/209740-samsung-is-reportedly-working-on-an-11k-screen-claims-it-can-create-3d-illusions

    "Or is SteamVR outputting 4096x2657, which is downscaled to 2560x1440, which is upscaled to 3840x2160? That seems more likely and nothing has changed in the headset, it's just more marketing."

    I hope that is NOT what is happening though. That would be a very bad design if they are. 1) That is a waste of resource for the GPU to output that 2) then wasting time to downscale that 3) waste of money to have to re scale it back up once it gets to the headset. Sure it over comes the cable bandwidth problem for a higher input/output res, but at the cost of all the work - that is just grows. Then again I wouldn't put it past them to do so....
  • elbofforelboffor Posts: 2,575 Valuable Player
    Hold on, are primax making a new headset?
    Hard to tell from this thread.
    This is my forum signature.
    There are many others like it, but this is mine.
  • reefy86reefy86 Posts: 238
    Nexus 6
    its the first thread i look for :)
  • Snot_ShotSnot_Shot Posts: 93
    Hiro Protagonist
    Love this thread too :smiley:  Love Zenbanes very simple but to the point arguments with links to factual information. I do understand Atmos too, he and other early Pimax backers searching for moral support that they made "good" choice by backing Pimax 8K kickstarter.
    I have no doubt that even Zenbane would buy Pimax 8K if it turns out to be a very good product. However, Pimax 8K promises way too much. You can sugar coat it anyway you like it but marketing Pimax as "8K" HMD is total bullshit.
    Then you have delivery, quality control which is the most crucial bit of the project, post launch support, warranty support, software support and suddenly that 4.2 million raised is just a drop in the ocean. Pimax will have to cut corners and that is where troubles will start.



     
  • reefy86reefy86 Posts: 238
    Nexus 6
    Snot_Shot said:
    Love this thread too :smiley:  Love Zenbanes very simple but to the point arguments with links to factual information. I do understand Atmos too, he and other early Pimax backers searching for moral support that they made "good" choice by backing Pimax 8K kickstarter.
    I have no doubt that even Zenbane would buy Pimax 8K if it turns out to be a very good product. However, Pimax 8K promises way too much. You can sugar coat it anyway you like it but marketing Pimax as "8K" HMD is total bullshit.
    Then you have delivery, quality control which is the most crucial bit of the project, post launch support, warranty support, software support and suddenly that 4.2 million raised is just a drop in the ocean. Pimax will have to cut corners and that is where troubles will start.



     
    EXACTLY :)  
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,803 Valuable Player
    edited November 2017

    Unfortunately, even if the Pimax 8K ended up being God's Gift to HMD's, I still wouldn't buy it because:
    1. It relies on SteamVR and I prefer the quality of the Oculus Platform.
    2. It uses either its own proprietary base stations and controllers, or those of the Vive.
    3. The total cost for the entire setup is near $1,000... and exactly zero new or exclusive software titles are provided.
    4. Its main target audience is "simulation enthusiasts" which I am not, nor have ever been.

    Pimax requires leaving the prestige of the Oculus VR landscape for the (imo) low quality Flea Market that is SteamVR. That's like spending $200 on shoes that you wear while living in a cardboard box, na' mean?

    I have probably spent nearly $1,000 on my VR software library up to this point... so spending money isn't a problem. However, throwing money away is not something that I find alluring. As a friendly reminder, the author of this thread once backed the HTC Vive and then reached the logical conclusion that selling it in favor of the Rift is the smartest choice:
    That is not meant to be a "jab" at the OP, I have nothing but respect for Mr. Shadow. I have friends who enjoy a good gamble, and losing money for some is just as fun as winning it. I aint that kinda person. Besides, selling a failed product is "reactive," I am much more of a "proactive" kinda fella.

    But here was Shadow's big argument about selling the Vive,
    "The problem with the Vive aside from its clunky design is the fact that the software that I expect from VR isn't there to drive it once you've rinsed out the few must play games. "

    Pimax is literally targeting the exact same VR software lineup that fails to drive VR. Everything in VR worth playing is available on Oculus Home. I will only consider upgrading my VR hardware when the software itself calls for it; and we aint there yet. When we do finally arrive to that point in a sensible way... I have no doubt that Facebook will accommodate.
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  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 5,006 Valuable Player
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 8,051 Valuable Player
    Having to faff about putting those Lighthouses is a big sticking point for me too, plus the Pimax headsets are going to suffer the same problem that the Vive has had since it launched - Valve's technology is expensive to produce, even with the upcoming Lighthouse 2.0 on the way. I've said it here before and I'll say it again, what was the Vive's strength at launch (the superior tracking) has now become its Achilles Heel. The Rift now has tracking on a par with the Vive and the price is only going to continue to come down.

    This time next year the cost of the Rift and Touch bundle will come down to $300/£300 because all Oculus have to worry about is manufacturing glorified web cams as IR LEDs which are both as cheap chips to do.

    You'll see the Rift CV2 coming down in price (and probably being cheaper than the Pimax headsets and Vive CV2 on launch day anyway) sooner than the Pimax and Vive CV2s.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • kojackkojack Posts: 7,054 Volunteer Moderator
    I understand how you feel. This post is always being updated... Luckily I can read it at work.
    Sadly I have to read it whether I want to or not. :(
    But I was at work too, taking a break from implementing a real time 2D destructible terrain system combining two physics engines for use in a networked C++ game for my students (I'm writing the server, they are writing the clients).  :)


    I'm partially interested in the Pimax, but I'm waiting for a real product to launch before I consider buying one.
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  • JeanpicassoJeanpicasso Posts: 14
    NerveGear
    edited November 2017
    Zenbane said:

     Everything in VR worth playing is available on Oculus Home.

    I dont agree with this. 

    All though I absolutely have the majority of my games on Oculus Home, I do have some great ones from Steam.

    Zenbane said:

    I have probably spent nearly $1,000 on my VR software library up to this point... so spending money isn't a problem. However, throwing money away is not something that I find alluring. 
    yeah, same here.. I got money comming out of my ass, but i dont like throwing it away... 
    well.. I might be somewhat not all truthfull about the ass part.. ;o)


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