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The Pimax 8K MEGA Thread - First Reviews Now live

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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 5,306 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    This headset will be great with a Geforce 2080Ti, but I'm still trying to work out why 5k looks the better of the two..
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,267 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018

    I think at this stage anyone wanting the latest and greatest will get a 5K+, it's good enough to warrant that kind of spend if they're the kind of people who have spare cash and aren't too worried about what Oculus brings out cos hey, if that turns out to be better then they'll get that too!


    For us mortals it's still a waiting game. If Oculus don't drop some solid hints though, the sands start shifting!!

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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 5,796 Valuable Player
    I think that HTC are pretty much fucked now. Mind you, saying that, we don't know how much these headsets are going to cost to non-Kickstarter backers yet. Pimax need to sell these things for a reasonable price rather than doing an HTC and start taking the piss.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,837 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    I think that HTC are pretty much fucked now. Mind you, saying that, we don't know how much these headsets are going to cost to non-Kickstarter backers yet. Pimax need to sell these things for a reasonable price rather than doing an HTC and start taking the piss.

    Good point. So if I'm going to "take anything back" it's my comment last week that the Vive Pro is currently the best HMD on the market. I definitely take that back now.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,837 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    RedRizla said:
    This headset will be great with a Geforce 2080Ti, but I'm still trying to work out why 5k looks better of the two..

    I haven't looked in-depth at the new specs yet, but if I were to venture a guess... it would be that the 5K is probably closer to true 5K, while the 8K is barely passable as true 4K.

    EDIT: Found the answer.
    Both headsets use a 1440p input signal, so for the 8K it is “scaled up” while the 5K is functioning at the Native Resolution.
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  • kojackkojack Posts: 4,884 Volunteer Moderator
    Zenbane said:
    • Pimax 8K leap-frogged the Vive Pro (in every way)

    I'd say the Vive Pro surpasses the Pimax 8K in two ways: the Vive Pro can do 90Hz, which the Pimax 8K is currently not capable of, and the Vive Pro has integrated headphones.
    The 5K can do 90Hz, but still lacks headphones.

    Zenbane said:

    Both headsets use a 1440p input signal, so for the 8K it is “scaled up” while the 5K is functioning at the Native Resolution.
    Yep, and it's a non integer scale factor, which doesn't help.
    I guess 1.5:1 isn't as bad as it could be, but it's still not as clean as 2:1.

  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,267 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    snowdog said:
    we don't know how much these headsets are going to cost to non-Kickstarter backers yet.

    That's a very important point.


    I think that people who care about their money won't buy until they know a reasonable amount about CV2. If we get a few details, even if they're good details but if CV2 still looks like being a year away or has an unknown date for too much longer then an increasing number of people may take a punt on a Pimax.


    But yeah, that punting threshold changes with what the final price is set at. With the questions that I still have with the Pimax, I'd probably wait a year for CV2 if I had a confirmed date. People who are looking to buy their first headset no doubt have very different timescales.

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,837 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    After getting through the reviews in detail, I can better answer the question about taking back any concerns I voiced over this kickstarter.

    So here is the good:
    • Thankfully this turned in to a true Product Line instead of a "kickstarter scam."
    • There are 3 products that will help consumers wanting a next gen HMD: Pimax 5K Plus, Pimax 8K, Pimax 8K-X
    • The final version of all 3 headsets "should" include integrated audio.
    • All headsets work well with both SteamVR and Oculus Home.
    • God Rays are drastically reduced (but not eliminated).
    • Screen Door effect is reduced (but not eliminated).
    • FOV is increased effectively compared to all existing HMDs. We have gone from a binocular view to a ski mask view.
    • Resolution is increased effectively compared to all existing HMDs.
    • There is no sacrificing of full room-scale 360 degree tracking.

    Now for the bad:
    • The original promise of 90Hz refresh rate for the Pimax 8K is dropped down to 80Hz, and refresh rate in VR assists with cybersickness (motion sickness).
    • True 8K is still not achieved, but worse yet, the Pimax 8K doesn't even have native resolution due to upscaling of the 1440p signal.
    • Users will have to wait for the Pimax 8K-X to get native resolution.
    • The Pimax 5K-Plus operates at native resolution and is therefore clearer than the Pimax 8K.
    • We have not achieved true 200 FOV. The Pimax Kickstarter failed to deliver 200 FOV for any current gen Graphics Cards, as both the 8K and 5K-Plus operate below 200 FOV.
    • While God Rays and Screen Door Effect are improved, Black Levels are worse in the Pimax HMDs than in the Rift or Vive.
    • The promise of needing only a GTX 1070 was not met. Anyone using this GPU will have to lower settings to the point that games are unplayable (with FPS rates in the 20's and 30's).
    • While the 5K-Plus is clearer than the 8K, the 5K-Plus is just as resource intensive as the 8K; so no many is saved on your "Pimax Ready Machine" by choosing the 5K-Plus.
    • The current minimum GPU is the 1080TI, but there's no way to run games smoothly at a hight FOV and Resolution even with that GPU.
    • The promised "Pimax 8K" isn't the Pimax 8K that is being released now. Instead, users will need to wait for the 8K-X to get something "closer" to what was described at the beginning of the Kickstarter.
    • Still no finger-tracking, so the Rift remains the better hand-controller VR kit.
    • The biggest issue for these HMDs is... Distortion.

    I feel that the visual Distortion problem will become the biggest issue once these HMDs go to mass market. Pimax had to implement Software and Lens Profiles to combat Distortion (this is a new technical issue; something the Rift nor Vive have to combat). MRTV’s review acknowledges that Distortion is noticeable to varying degrees. The hope is that the new lens profiling software will continue to minimize the issue.

    Another solution is to use “normal FOV” mode which decreases the FOV in order to “hide” the distortion. But this will bring FOV closer to that of the Rift or Vive.

    Overall, the promised Resolution and FOV was definitely not met as of yet; both because of GPU requirements and because of the Distortion issue.

    So I was wrong to predict that this would be a "kickstarter scam/flop." I didn't think Pimax would get through these issues, but they managed to break up their promises in to 3 different products - where the 8K-X carries the weight of the original Kickstarter promises - and so this line of products lives to see another day.

    I have to say that I can respect that corporate strategy. Well played, Pimax. Well played.
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  • dburnedburne Posts: 1,760 Valuable Player
    Well hopefully it all works out for the best, as for me I don't much care for how they have done this. But that is just me.
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  • nroskonrosko Posts: 952
    Neo
    Watched the Sweviver review read the online reviews. 
    Seems even with a 1080Ti you have to run pretty low settings to get even mediocre FPS & there is no ASW yet. 
    These HDM are a good few years too early imo. 
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,118 Valuable Player
    Beyond the tech details and the issues - the takeaway is that Pimax as a corporation was prepared to listen to its user base and went the extra mile to make changes and even come up with a mid-scale solution with the 5K. 

    I think they over reached themselves with the 8K - but may have pulled it back with the 5K, offering a solution for the Next Phase (not Next Gen) VR community. Now we see if this is supported by strong sales?
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  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,638 Volunteer Moderator
    edited September 2018
    nrosko said:
    Watched the Sweviver review read the online reviews. 
    Seems even with a 1080Ti you have to run pretty low settings to get even mediocre FPS & there is no ASW yet. 
    These HDM are a good few years too early imo. 
    I think Nvidia's AI upscaling + new adaptive shaders (which are said to really increase performance in VR) + foveated rendering are really key to large FOV HMD's at the moment, the old way is just not sustainable in the near future.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,837 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    snowdog said:
    we don't know how much these headsets are going to cost to non-Kickstarter backers yet.

    That's a very important point.


    I think that people who care about their money won't buy until they know a reasonable amount about CV2. If we get a few details, even if they're good details but if CV2 still looks like being a year away or has an unknown date for too much longer then an increasing number of people may take a punt on a Pimax.


    But yeah, that punting threshold changes with what the final price is set at. With the questions that I still have with the Pimax, I'd probably wait a year for CV2 if I had a confirmed date. People who are looking to buy their first headset no doubt have very different timescales.


    Agreed. Price is also such a huge factor. I still remember 2016 when people were blaming "high cost of entry" for the low numbers of Rift and Vive purchase rates. I also remember when those "Oculus Ready VR Machines" came out at $499 to help address the Price issue. But that still didn't mean much, because spending anywhere near $1,000 total was apparently "still too much."

    Fast forward to now and somehow the high-priced Vive Pro and Pimax 8K are supposed to be "next gen" ? And what happened to all the "VR needs a killer App" rhetoric? There's no App being released alongside the Pimax. Even HTC and Sony have their signature VR Titles (as does the Rift and GO).

    I think Facebook-Oculus are doing the right thing by letting the market dictate when it's truly ready for next gen; not a handful of extreme enthusiasts.
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  • geebee666geebee666 Posts: 198
    Art3mis
    I would like to see a "Tested" review of a Pimax.

    Personally I am hoping someone (Oculus) comes up with eye tracking and high resolution, real 4k would be nice but probably not likely in Gen 2
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,837 Valuable Player
    So far the only company aiming for real 4K is Apple. But that's several years away.
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  • WildtWildt Posts: 1,570
    Project 2501
    edited September 2018
    Any good price estimates for the entire 5k+ package with controllers and whatnot?
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,837 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018
    Pimax Controllers won't be out until 2019, so right now the price will need to include Vive controllers and base stations. There's a general guess that the 5K with Pimax Controllers and tracking units will be around $700. So perhaps the 5K HMD as a stand-alone product will be roughly $550.
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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,267 Valuable Player
    Wildt said:
    Any good price estimates for the entire 5k+ package with controllers and whatnot?


    The kickstarter pledge for the 8K package was $799 and the 5K package $699. Buying 2 Vive controllers and 2 sensors separately would currently set you back $530.

    I'm guessing the retail price for a Pimax 5K+ full package will be somewhere around the $1,000 mark maybe less. Depends how much money they need to claw back from the development process or if they're still in the black.

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  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 428
    Trinity
    Okay, those reviews are really lightening, thank you for everyone who shared them and summed them up!

    Personally, I'm really not convinced by the apparent result. Have you seen those FPS benchmark results? It's just unplayable most of the time! Even when lowering all the settings to the Vive Pro level (including the FOV, it seems), it's still below 70 FPS even with a 1080Ti?!
    The second major problem is distorsion. Sure you won't notice it if you look in the sweet spot. But the point of having a high FOV is to be able to look on the sides. I do roll my eyes a lot in VR apps, so I know I will notice the distorsions on the sides.

    I stand on my position about this headset: they promised huge numbers, but not only the didn't achieve most of them, it also was too big for them or for the computers to handle.
    Current VR results imo:
    - Great small apps. Great ports of bigger games.
    - Great VR-specific features. Not enough showcased!!!
    - Too many actors in the industry, the market is totally broken.


    My hopes for VR next gen:

    - Better ratio between visual quality and power needs. No more godrays and less SDE.
    - Full Body Tracking.


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  • lensmandavelensmandave Posts: 127
    Art3mis
    The mention of distortion is a real worry for me. ANY distortion is going to kill the immersion stone dead in any 'real life' simulation game - flightsim, racing etc.
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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,267 Valuable Player

    I'm willing to go with the reviewers opinion that distortion is just around the periphery and not really a distraction.

    I'd personally put more importance on black levels, godrays and GPU requirements if I were considering this, The Pimax seems to have the lowest level of godrays so far but maybe the worst black levels.

    If CV2 has 140 deg FOV but a noticeably better level of detail over the 5K+, and if it has the same level of blacks and godrays as the Go, that would make it my choice for an upgrade.

    Some will take the opposite view which is understandable, FOV does more to increase immersion, detail does more to make a game more playable I think. Godrays and black levels just make for a more enjoyable experience.


    We don't know yet what Pimax's customer service is like or the reliability of the hardware but i think they should be given the benefit of the doubt until we know otherwise.

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,837 Valuable Player
    The big issue with Distortion is that the solution requires lowering the FOV even further, to about 155 degrees.

    Current FOV playable categories are: 170,155, 125.

    While those are improved over the current Rift and Vive, they are a far cry from the 200 FOV promised, on top of the fact that the highest end GPU is required as a bare minimum.

    In truth, the promised 8K HMD is still not being delivered. Users have to wait until next year for what Pimax has branded the "8K-X" along with the new hand-controllers. The only recommended product right now between the released 8K and 5K-Plus is the 5K version.

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  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 5,198 Volunteer Moderator
    I did notice on his video on the Kickstarter page I saw something I never noticed before "for next gen GPU" that new ?
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.
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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,267 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    The big issue with Distortion is that the solution requires lowering the FOV even further, to about 155 degrees.

    Current FOV playable categories are: 170,155, 125.

    While those are improved over the current Rift and Vive, they are a far cry from the 200 FOV promised, on top of the fact that the highest end GPU is required as a bare minimum.

    In truth, the promised 8K HMD is still not being delivered. Users have to wait until next year for what Pimax has branded the "8K-X" along with the new hand-controllers. The only recommended product right now between the released 8K and 5K-Plus is the 5K version.


    True, I think the bottom line is that this is really all in Oculus' court to win or lose.

    Actually I hate that winning or losing analogy, scrub that, too many us/them arguments of the past. Pimax's entrance, despite the quibbles, injects some optimism in PC VR, I'm sure Oculus will inject some more soon enough. It's reason enough to be enthusiastic again.

    @Shadowmask72 you deserves a well played for braving out our doubts and holding your nerve with the backing. Are you going with the 5K+ ? When do you expect to get your hands on it?

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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 5,796 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    The big issue with Distortion is that the solution requires lowering the FOV even further, to about 155 degrees.

    Current FOV playable categories are: 170,155, 125.

    While those are improved over the current Rift and Vive, they are a far cry from the 200 FOV promised, on top of the fact that the highest end GPU is required as a bare minimum.

    In truth, the promised 8K HMD is still not being delivered. Users have to wait until next year for what Pimax has branded the "8K-X" along with the new hand-controllers. The only recommended product right now between the released 8K and 5K-Plus is the 5K version.


    I don't think anyone who knows anything about HMDs was expecting 200 degrees horizontal FOV tbh.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,837 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    I don't think anyone who knows anything about HMDs was expecting 200 degrees horizontal FOV tbh.

    I'm just going by what people were saying before the final release of the 8K headset. If you're saying that people were lying to themselves or didn't believe themselves then sure, I guess that is always possible. But I don't know what is in people's heads lol

    Taking both Pimax and most Backers at their word, there was 200 degrees FOV promised and expected.
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  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,638 Volunteer Moderator
    snowdog said:
    Zenbane said:
    The big issue with Distortion is that the solution requires lowering the FOV even further, to about 155 degrees.

    Current FOV playable categories are: 170,155, 125.

    While those are improved over the current Rift and Vive, they are a far cry from the 200 FOV promised, on top of the fact that the highest end GPU is required as a bare minimum.

    In truth, the promised 8K HMD is still not being delivered. Users have to wait until next year for what Pimax has branded the "8K-X" along with the new hand-controllers. The only recommended product right now between the released 8K and 5K-Plus is the 5K version.


    I don't think anyone who knows anything about HMDs was expecting 200 degrees horizontal FOV tbh.
    Well, Star-VR has managed it, according to the first impressions, mind you I wonder what they ran their demos on!
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  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 3,558 Valuable Player
    i am interested in how the oculus store is supported.
    Apparently it does not use steamVR at all.... this could be massive imo, and i am surprised there is not a hell of a lot of people looking for answers.

    Do oculus natively support the pimax 5k / 8k? if so where does that leave the hate / vitriol held against oculus and the halo which has been polished by some for Valve?

    or if pimax are being a bit cheeky does that mean oculus could end the support one day at the flick of a switch?

    this is both a potentially exciting and a  potentially scary thing imo.

    has there been an official post from someone from oculus @cybereality

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  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 6,638 Volunteer Moderator
    edited September 2018
    i am interested in how the oculus store is supported.
    Apparently it does not use steamVR at all.... this could be massive imo, and i am surprised there is not a hell of a lot of people looking for answers.

    Do oculus natively support the pimax 5k / 8k? if so where does that leave the hate / vitriol held against oculus and the halo which has been polished by some for Valve?

    or if pimax are being a bit cheeky does that mean oculus could end the support one day at the flick of a switch?

    this is both a potentially exciting and a  potentially scary thing imo.

    has there been an official post from someone from oculus @cybereality

    thanks

     I think it's through ReVive or their custom version of that
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 12,837 Valuable Player
    edited September 2018

    Use this link to get to the time in the vid that talks about how playing Oculus Games works with the Pimax HMDs:

    The Oculus Titles are "imported" in to the PiTool Software, and they are launched from there.

    This is the absolute best feature of these headsets imo
    :p

    I don't think there is any issue with Pimax doing this in a cheeky way; afterall, if Revive can do it then so can Pimax. I'm too lazy to look in to the tech specs on how this is done.
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