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Rift S Disappointment Thread so Oculus knows our feedback!

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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,794 Volunteer Moderator
    OK @ShineHunter I think we can agree on a few things, we both want an enthusiast headset and we both think it isn't going to come from Oculus this year.

    If nothing else I think it proves that we're both quite passionate about VR as are many other people on the forum.. and that's a great thing.

    I don't see the Rift-S as a stumbling block to an enthusiast Rift arriving and maybe that's the biggest difference between my view and some others but that's ok.

    Maybe this thread indicates something else.... that we're all (partially at least) fans of Oculus and want to see them producing the enthusiast headset rather than other companies. Otherwise, I don't think the conversations would get so passionate. People would just buy a Pimax, Vive Pro or an upcoming confirmed headset like the HP Revberb without getting annoyed at Oculus.
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  • CrashFuCrashFu Posts: 1,756 Valuable Player
    RattyUK said:
    But, if the Rift S is not an 'upgrade' for standard Rift owners (but sounds like it will be its replacement) why is a disappointment thread needed for Rift owners?
    If it was being hyped as the 'CV2' then such might provoke disappointment among those of us who are looking for the next big thing.
    So what on earth is all the fuss about?  What is there to be so upset about?

    The "PC Master Race":



    Also maybe they missed the part about how the CV1 will still be fully supported for the forseeable future.

    Or they're afraid that the next time theirs breaks, Oculus will send them a Rift-S in its place.  The horror. :fearful:

    It's hard being the voice of reason when you're surrounded by unreasonable people.
  • CrashFuCrashFu Posts: 1,756 Valuable Player
    edited March 26

    I don't see the Rift-S as a stumbling block to an enthusiast Rift arriving and maybe that's the biggest difference between my view and some others but that's ok.
    Oh yeah, I forgot about that part:   A common logical fallacy is to assume that everything is a Zero-Sum Game.   "If Oculus is making an entry level headset, that proves that they AREN'T making a high-end headset!"

    Because apparently Oculus is staffed by a single engineer who only has time to work on one thing at a time, right?  And certainly, NONE of the R&D done for Rift-S will apply to any other Oculus projects, right?

    So it might not even be that they chose to prioritize mass-adoption over high-spec stuff; It's pretty likely that the tech needed for Rift-S just happened to be ready and affordable now, while all the stuff they want to put in a high-spec headset just isn't ready or practical yet.

    Maybe this thread indicates something else.... that we're all (partially at least) fans of Oculus and want to see them producing the enthusiast headset rather than other companies. Otherwise, I don't think the conversations would get so passionate. People would just buy a Pimax, Vive Pro or an upcoming confirmed headset like the HP Revberb without getting annoyed at Oculus.

    Pffft, you know that nobody can jump ship in this community without putting on a big, melodramatic performance or trying to convince everyone else to jump the ship with them.
    It's hard being the voice of reason when you're surrounded by unreasonable people.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,794 Volunteer Moderator
    Well, I give people the benefit, if they say they want a better Oculus headset, I'll take it at face value rather than code for.. I'm getting another headset and I want to shout at everyone on the forum before I go.

    I have a theory that the reason Oculus partnered with Lenovo for the Rift S is because it allows Oculus to continue development of an enthusiast headset which we know has been happening (Half Dome) without diverting development resources on a new mainstream headset (sorry if that's been said already, I'm losing track with all the posts). 
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  • dburnedburne Posts: 2,408 Valuable Player
    Well, I give people the benefit, if they say they want a better Oculus headset, I'll take it at face value rather than code for.. I'm getting another headset and I want to shout at everyone on the forum before I go.

    I have a theory that the reason Oculus partnered with Lenovo for the Rift S is because it allows Oculus to continue development of an enthusiast headset which we know has been happening (Half Dome) without diverting development resources on a new mainstream headset (sorry if that's been said already, I'm losing track with all the posts). 
    We have no information whatsoever that Half Dome is still being developed and that Oculus will release a high end PC-VR headset after the Rift S. As far as I know the Rift S is their next gen product for the foreseeable future and will be what Oculus builds upon if they continue with PC-VR down the road.

    Maybe at some point in the not too distant future Oculus can be a little more transparent with their roadmap. After the hoopla of showing some of the Half Dome Technology and now here we are with this,the Rift S,  I am just not sure what they may be planning and maybe they are not real sure yet either... they well could still be working on Half Dome, or also could well have cancelled the entire project.

    We just do not know, and Oculus ain't saying.
    Don

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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,794 Volunteer Moderator

    Nope, I agree, it's always been thus regarding info. Maybe other companies make earlier announcements but in many cases people are left waiting for the announcements to materialise, ahem knuckles, ahem.

    I think all I'm saying is that I don't see the Rift S as changing the roadmap and a Lenovo design in this instance seems to me to support that. Everyone's free to interpret it differently though.

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  • CrashFuCrashFu Posts: 1,756 Valuable Player
    @dburne ; You honestly think Oculus would just STOP developing products altogether after the Rift-S?   This is a company who has based their entire business model around the long-term of VR,  of course they're going to try and dominate the high-end market when it's appropriate for them to do so.

    The only question is when will they decide that their own high-end product is ready.  They won't rush anything to market just to get some easy sales,  they'll make sure it's the absolute best high-spec VR device that money can buy. And you probably won't hear about it until it's near-ready to release.

    No sarcasm intended: feel free to buy another company's high-spec VR device while you wait. I'm certain that Oculus will come out with something that'll make you want to come back, sooner or later.
    It's hard being the voice of reason when you're surrounded by unreasonable people.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,108 Valuable Player
    edited March 26
    Fair point @CrashFu - it is perfectly logical to state that Oculus will move to dominate the high-end VR market only when it makes the most business sense. And if we learned anything from both HTC and Pimax, it's that as of today, it does not make any business sense whatsoever.

    I think most of us were just looking forward to Facebook and Oculus blowing us away in the same fashion that they have done in the past. I mean, this is their fault really! lol
    • Touch controllers blew everyone away (unrivaled award winning hand-controllers).
    • Exclusive Oculus VR Software is the best in the Industry (e.g. Lone Echo, Robo Recall, The Unspoken).
    • Oculus GO has unrivaled  Media Entertainment VR features (live 360 events, streaming with multiplayer).
    • Oculus Quest brings great tracking with Arena Scale and a damn Darth Vader exclusive series.
    The fact is that Rift-S doesn't blow everyone away in the same fashion that Facebook-Oculus has done in the past. And believe me, I know how pretentious it seems to think that everything Oculus poops out should be gold with a side of fairy sprinkles. But hey, their brand is "blow away" so wtf can ya do??
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,746 Valuable Player
    Yup, you've also got to give Oculus credit for becoming the first company to allow supersampling and the first company to implement ASW, and ASW is going to have a 2.0 version soon which will remove artefacts.

    Oculus leads, everyone else follows.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,108 Valuable Player
    edited March 26

    I will admit that I am disappointed with the Rift-S but not because it is a disappointing product (it's far from that, it's literally both bleeding edge and leading edge), but because Facebook and Oculus have turned me in to a spoiled sheit with 3 years of amazeballs.
    :p
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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,266 Valuable Player
    edited March 26
    If people want a low end Rift for their low end PC's why don't Ouclus just keep the OG Rift and keep making it cheaper. The price could of been Go price one day. Lots more people would jump on then. OG Rift for low end PC and a new Rift CV2 for high end PC users. Kinda like the Vive and Vive Pro. Though please be better than the Vive Pro. 

    Because despite what people think, Oculus Rift -S is an upgrade and it's only $50 more then the current CV1. It has higher resolution screens, better lenses and is much easier to setup. You could also argue that it's mobile because with a Laptop on your back you could use it anywhere. You can also take it to another place were there's a desktop PC and not have to fart around setting up sensors. 

    People like things to work right out of the box and Oculus Quest and Rift -S will do that unless theirs faulty of-course. Setting up 3 sensors for room scale VR not only looks untidy with leads going here and there, but it's a pain to setup for some people. You just have to read the Oculus forums to know this is true. What with USB problems and the power options mess about, it's just not made easy enough. Inside Out tracking is the way forward and even Vive will take this approach. I'm afraid you will have to move with the times because I don't think any VR company is going to start using outside in tracking in the future.

    Once Oculus has enough people in VR, then might be the time to create a higher end headset for people who can afford such luxuries. Right now though they want more people in VR and they want the setup to be as easy as possible.

    Also, Vive Pro is the higher end headset, so why don't you just buy that instead? You have the option to buy a higher-end one already is what I'm saying. You will probably need a Geforce 2080Ti for games with good graphics though because of the higher resolution screens it uses.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,108 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:

    Because despite what people think, Oculus Rift -S is an upgrade

    In some ways yes it's an upgrade, and in other ways it's a downgrade. No point restarted the debate all over again. We've seen the specifications being argued for about a week. Until we've all tried it first-hand, we're stuck knowing that, on paper, there are parts that are upgraded and parts that are downgraded. Nate Mitchell of Oculus himself acknowledges this, and he refers to the downgraded aspect as "trade-offs."

    I don't think we're doing either Facebook nor Oculus any favors by portraying these trade-offs as "not" being trade-offs. If everything about Rift-S was an upgrade, then there wouldn't be any trade-offs.
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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,266 Valuable Player
    edited March 27
    @Zenbane - It's a downgrade because the current Rift uses outside in tracking, but can that really be classed as a downgrade if inside out tracking will be the future of VR headsets from now on? Some will see it as an upgrade that you don't have to mess about with sensors and that it also makes Rift -S more portable. The only complaint is that is might have some slight blocking behind your head, which software will fix like we have seen with the Samsung odyssey that only has 2 camera's.

    The audio isn't a problem because I suspect Oculus will bring out some earphones now some people have complained, but I'll use my gaming ones which are better then the current Rifts audio.

    Apart from what I've mentioned above, I can't think of anything else that is a downgrade. I don't even think what I've mentioned above really makes the Rift -S a downgrade though tbh.

    Edit: Also, I was replying to someone to better inform them why it's not a great idea for Oculus to make a highend headset that costs more money. Just buy a Vive Pro if you want a highend headset that costs more.
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,348 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    @Zenbane - It's a downgrade because the current Rift uses outside in tracking, but can that really be classed as a downgrade if inside out tracking will be the future of VR headsets from now on? Some will see it as an upgrade that you don't have to mess about with sensors and that it also makes Rift -S more portable. The only complaint is that is might have some slight blocking behind your head, which software will fix like we have seen with the Samsung odyssey that only has 2 camera's.

    The audio isn't a problem because I suspect Oculus will bring out some earphones now some people have complained, but I'll use my gaming ones which are better then the current Rifts audio.

    Apart from what I've mentioned above, I can't think of anything else that is a downgrade. I don't even think what I've mentioned above really makes the Rift -S a downgrade though tbh.

    Edit: Also, I was replying to someone to better inform them why it's not a great idea for Oculus to make a highend headset that costs more. Just buy a Vive Pro if you want a highend headset that costs more.
    Just got back to page 6 and read the M-Wall:) but to make this short - there is till another price point that doesn't break into Vive Pro price point that still would allow some great upgrades while over all giving options to people that want no trade-offs and provide a better experiences over all. 
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,266 Valuable Player
    Mradr said:
    RedRizla said:
    @Zenbane - It's a downgrade because the current Rift uses outside in tracking, but can that really be classed as a downgrade if inside out tracking will be the future of VR headsets from now on? Some will see it as an upgrade that you don't have to mess about with sensors and that it also makes Rift -S more portable. The only complaint is that is might have some slight blocking behind your head, which software will fix like we have seen with the Samsung odyssey that only has 2 camera's.

    The audio isn't a problem because I suspect Oculus will bring out some earphones now some people have complained, but I'll use my gaming ones which are better then the current Rifts audio.

    Apart from what I've mentioned above, I can't think of anything else that is a downgrade. I don't even think what I've mentioned above really makes the Rift -S a downgrade though tbh.

    Edit: Also, I was replying to someone to better inform them why it's not a great idea for Oculus to make a highend headset that costs more. Just buy a Vive Pro if you want a highend headset that costs more.
    Just got back to page 6 and read the M-Wall:) but to make this short - there is till another price point that doesn't break into Vive Pro price point that still would allow some great upgrades while over all giving options to people that want no trade-offs and provide a better experiences over all. 

    Yes, it's called the Oculus Rift 2, but it's not ready yet. When it is ready it will arrive at a good price and have most of what people want. Until then if you want something highend then buy a Vive Pro, if price doesn't bother you. They've already said they are probably going to offer audio to the Rift -S, by adding some over the ear speakers, so I'm interested to know what more you want?

    I also read that Carmack said they would have used Oculus GO screens in the Oculus Quest had Oculus GO come before Oculus Quest, so what else is it you want other than something similar to a Vive Pro?
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,348 Valuable Player
    edited March 27
    RedRizla said:

    Yes, it's called the Oculus Rift 2, but it's not ready yet. When it is ready it will arrive at a good price and have most of what people want. Until then if you want something highend then buy a Vive Pro, if price doesn't bother you. They've already said they are probably going to offer audio to the Rift -S, by adding some over the ear speakers, so I'm interested to know what more you want?

    I also read that Carmack said they would have used Oculus GO screens in the Oculus Quest had Oculus GO come before Oculus Quest, so what else is it you want other than something similar to a Vive Pro?
    IDK, maybe the IDP adjustment back and per eye screens vs single display:)? OLED vs LCD - my full 90Hz back and the higher resolution found on the Quest along with my over ear headphones back:)? Hell keep the head strap - offer a hing so I can lift it up to get in and out of VR quickly for the short time I just need to for whatever reason. Boom - a true upgrade vs trade off update. Sure wont be a 2.0 - but at least then it be a 1.5 upgrade vs a <1.5 it is now. I can live with the new tracking design as a trade off - but the other things would is just too much of trade off not to worry about the direction Oculus is going.

    Who knows if we are really getting a CV2 now though - if they are trying to keep the same price point - that be another 6 years. I mean that is your argument correct? Base off trying to go mass market - a CV2 wont be out for a long long time as you will have to scale the parts to match that low of a price point if entry is your goal. Are you saying you rather wait 6 more years? Lots of people also don't like the GO screen after using the OLED panels. Are you saying those people's options don't matter either? Lots of people also don't like GO either that cause them to have headaches and eye wear. Are you saying GO is a good example of the high end? I mean if you want to compare what Carmack said to what customers have said.. go right a head.

    How is the Vive Pro wands similar to Oculus controllers? How is Vive Pro software similar to Oculus Store? I think the argument between getting a Vive Pro and a higher end headset from Oculus is a stupid one at best and a misleading understanding of the major differences each brand offers a worst. Hell if you hit the target higher end 800 you still come in under 300$ that of the Vive Pro if you include everything. Are you telling me there isn't a difference between 800 vs 1100? Are you telling me Oculus and Vive are a 1:1 in their software?

    I can tell you didn't read the whole post - because I already cover a lot of what you said with a counter argument.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,108 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    @Zenbane - It's a downgrade because

    I understand what the trade-offs are, and why they happened. It was debated for a week. There are more than one area where it is a downgrade, and you can read the various thread on the subject to get a clear picture. As I said, we don't need to re-start the debates all over again. We need to move forward with the facts known.

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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,266 Valuable Player
    edited March 27
    Mradr said:
    RedRizla said:

    Yes, it's called the Oculus Rift 2, but it's not ready yet. When it is ready it will arrive at a good price and have most of what people want. Until then if you want something highend then buy a Vive Pro, if price doesn't bother you. They've already said they are probably going to offer audio to the Rift -S, by adding some over the ear speakers, so I'm interested to know what more you want?

    I also read that Carmack said they would have used Oculus GO screens in the Oculus Quest had Oculus GO come before Oculus Quest, so what else is it you want other than something similar to a Vive Pro?
    IDK, maybe the IDP adjustment back and per eye screens vs single display:)? OLED vs LCD - my full 90Hz back and the higher resolution found on the Quest along with my over ear headphones back:)? Hell keep the head strap - offer a hing so I can lift it up to get in and out of VR quickly for the short time I just need to for whatever reason. Boom - a true upgrade vs trade off update. Sure wont be a 2.0 - but at least then it be a 1.5 upgrade vs a <1.5 it is now. I can live with the new tracking design as a trade off - but the other things would is just too much of trade off not to worry about the direction Oculus is going.


    I can tell you didn't read the whole post - because I already cover a lot of what you said with a counter argument.

    I can also tell you also didn't read my post. I read that someone said Carmack would have used the Lcd screen in the Oculus Quest had Oculus GO come before Oculus Quest. Well that is what @snowdog said in another post anyways :). If that's correct he obviously thinks that the Lcd is better and having had the Oculus Go, I can confirm it looks so much better then the current Rift and will work great with mid range Nvida cards, which means more people being able to get into VR.

    I also said Oculus were considering adding headphones. Well not me who said it, it was Oculus themselves that said it. 

    IPD for people out of range not sure until we get feedback, but I agree. Maybe adding a hinge may have prevented glasses users wearing Rift -S. The Rift -S lifts forward for glasses, so it might of being difficult to add a hinge for that reason. A hinge doesn't cost much so they must have had a reason for not adding it.


  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,348 Valuable Player
    edited March 27
    RedRizla said:

    I can also tell you also didn't read my post. I read that someone said Carmack would have used the Lcd screen in the Oculus Quest had Oculus GO come before Oculus Quest. 
    Oh I did, "Lots of people also don't like GO either that cause them to have headaches and eye wear. Are you saying GO is a good example of the high end? I mean if you want to compare what Carmack said to what customers have said.. go right a head." Again - I dont think you are reading it all. Plus cutting out 30% of the IDP chap seems a bit weird. Granted you can't cover everyone - but 30% is still a pretty high number. Ideally you want less than 10 to 5%.

    Na, Nate said him self - they didn't add one because of the cost only. Glasses have nothing to do with it. Your glasses fit inside the headset or just hold onto them as you flip up the headset.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,266 Valuable Player
    edited March 27
    Mradr said:
    RedRizla said:

    I can also tell you also didn't read my post. I read that someone said Carmack would have used the Lcd screen in the Oculus Quest had Oculus GO come before Oculus Quest. 
    OH I did, "Lots of people also don't like GO either that cause them to have headaches and eye wear. Are you saying GO is a good example of the high end? I mean if you want to compare what Carmack said to what customers have said.. go right a head." Again - I dont think you are reading it all.

    Like I already said, I agreed with you about the ipd. There's also plenty of people who really like Oculus Go though. According to Oculus it is a very popular VR headset. No I'm not saying Oculus GO is an example of highend VR, I just said the Oculus GO looks so much better then the current Rift and that is the screens that Rift -S uses. Are you saying that Oculus GO doesn't look better then the current Rift or something?

    There more to a highend headset then just screen resolutions. The Rift -S offers so much more for just $199 more then Oculus GO.


  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,746 Valuable Player
    Mradr said:
    RedRizla said:

    I can also tell you also didn't read my post. I read that someone said Carmack would have used the Lcd screen in the Oculus Quest had Oculus GO come before Oculus Quest. 
    Oh I did, "Lots of people also don't like GO either that cause them to have headaches and eye wear. Are you saying GO is a good example of the high end? I mean if you want to compare what Carmack said to what customers have said.. go right a head." Again - I dont think you are reading it all. Plus cutting out 30% of the IDP chap seems a bit weird. Granted you can't cover everyone - but 30% is still a pretty high number. Ideally you want less than 10 to 5%.

    Na, Nate said him self - they didn't add one because of the cost only. Glasses have nothing to do with it. Your glasses fit inside the headset or just hold onto them as you flip up the headset.

    Some people have had headaches with the Oculus Go because the Oculus Go has a fixed IPD setting of 64. We don't know the range of IPD that the Rift S has available yet, my suspicion would be because they're still working on it, but someone on Reddit with an IPD of 72 had no problems using it during his 30 minute demo.
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  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,348 Valuable Player
    edited March 27
    RedRizla said:
    Like I already said, I agreed with you about the ipd. There's also plenty of people who really like Oculus Go though. According to Oculus it is a very popular VR headset. No I'm not saying Oculus GO is an example of highend VR, I just said the Oculus GO looks so much better then the current Rift and that is the screens that Rift -S uses. Are you saying that Oculus GO don't look better then the current Rift or something?

    Most of that arrangement you have to understand why it is better and that GO it self isn't the reason it's better. GO it self shouldn't been seen as a prime example of high end and shouldn't be copy for high end usage.

    What makes the GO better than the current CV1 alone was age and time. GO was using better lenses and screen technology that follow the CV1. In this case - TIME was a big factor to make the GO better than what the CV1 was because it built on what they learn from CV1.

    LCD doesn't look better alone because it is LCD - no it's because of using full RGB looks way better than pen til. That was discuss way back when CV1 was release. We wanted full RGB over OLED back in the day. It wasn't possible yet because they needed more time to scale their OLED lines (and they did).

    Really, there isn't a reason why higher end PCVR can't use these and still split it self off from GO. The use of a single displays remove IDP - you can't have IDP without dual screens in this case. Plus the fact that a single displays loses some of the PPD because of the over lap.

    So yes, GO wouldn't look better than CV1 if they did go for full RGB OLED screens and new lenses.

  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,108 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    Mradr said:
    RedRizla said:

    I can also tell you also didn't read my post. I read that someone said Carmack would have used the Lcd screen in the Oculus Quest had Oculus GO come before Oculus Quest. 
    Oh I did, "Lots of people also don't like GO either that cause them to have headaches and eye wear. Are you saying GO is a good example of the high end? I mean if you want to compare what Carmack said to what customers have said.. go right a head." Again - I dont think you are reading it all. Plus cutting out 30% of the IDP chap seems a bit weird. Granted you can't cover everyone - but 30% is still a pretty high number. Ideally you want less than 10 to 5%.

    Na, Nate said him self - they didn't add one because of the cost only. Glasses have nothing to do with it. Your glasses fit inside the headset or just hold onto them as you flip up the headset.

    Some people have had headaches with the Oculus Go because the Oculus Go has a fixed IPD setting of 64. We don't know the range of IPD that the Rift S has available yet, my suspicion would be because they're still working on it, but someone on Reddit with an IPD of 72 had no problems using it during his 30 minute demo.

    Check out this latest video on Rift-S:

    The user gets headaches from Oculus GO (which also has no physical IPD adjustment) but did not get any headaches from Rift-S. He admits that he only had a small time frame to show it, but more testing is coming this week.

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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,794 Volunteer Moderator
    I didn't know the Go had a fixed IPD.
    Every now & then people say useful stuff ;p 
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  • DoogukDooguk Posts: 20
    Brain Burst
    I didn't know the Go had a fixed IPD.
    Every now & then people say useful stuff ;p 

    I found out after buying it. Everything looks slightly blurry to me in the Go. This was not a good move on the part of Oculus. 

  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,108 Valuable Player
    I didn't know the Go had a fixed IPD.
    Every now & then people say useful stuff ;p 
    I don't know what my IPD is, but my GO has always looked glorious to me!
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  • DoogukDooguk Posts: 20
    Brain Burst
    Zenbane said:
    I didn't know the Go had a fixed IPD.
    Every now & then people say useful stuff ;p 
    I don't know what my IPD is, but my GO has always looked glorious to me!

    You are obviously very average, ;)

  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 4,794 Volunteer Moderator
    I guess they went with an average IPD but wouldn't be great if you're too far away from that. I haven't measured mine properly but 69 seems to be the most comfortable in CV1. @Dooguk , yeah, I may have also had problems with a Go.
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  • DoogukDooguk Posts: 20
    Brain Burst
    I guess they went with an average IPD but wouldn't be great if you're too far away from that. I haven't measured mine properly but 69 seems to be the most comfortable in CV1. @Dooguk , yeah, I may have also had problems with a Go.

    I seem to remember they went with an IPD of 64. I have my CV1 set to 68 and looks great. Constantly trying to get your eyes to focus would be a good way of getting a headache. :s

  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,108 Valuable Player
    edited March 27
    Dooguk said:
    You are obviously very average, ;)


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