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Knucke/Index Controllers - Some Thoughts

Unless I'm wrong, I believe you'll be holding Knuckle controllers just as you hold Touch, regardless of whether you're gripping something in VR or not. The only difference will be when you open your grip just before grabbing something, instead of just pressing the grip button on Touch when grabbing something.

The reason I say this is that you need to be firmly gripping the controller to operate the other controls (movement etc) and to provide firm stability to the controller whether gripping something or not. If this is the case, then you're really just making quite a subtle difference to the experience.

But what might make a larger difference (at least for me) is having the constant touch of the strap across the back of my hand. This may, for me, contribute to having a reminder that you're using a controller rather than add to immersion.

Don't get me wrong, the old Vive controllers are overdue for an improved alternative and Knuckles are definitely that, but I'm not sure the grip mechanic is adding to the experience or detracting. Am I missing something?

I  welcome alternative thoughts.
69 REPLIES 69

pyroth309
Visionary

RuneSR2 said:

Touch still looks awesome  ❤️ - other controllers look too big and chunky:

x96ajzv94xd2.jpg

Weight (one controller):

Knuckles EV1 = 184 grams

Vive Wands = 205 grams

Touch controllers = 166 grams (With battery installed)

Windows MR = 197 grams (With two batteries installed)

Knuckles EV3 = 196 grams

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/bawinj/valve_knuckles_controllers_compared_in_size_to/



No disagreement here. Touch are slick and are still the best thing about the Rift. I think with Knuckles, due to the way they work, they pretty much have to be large to be able to accommodate large hands. I did see some videos from Cas and Chary using them with small hands and worked good. I have very wide palms so I am actually hoping they are big enough lol.

There is one issue I have with touch while playing beat saber, there's not enough to grab with the normal grip when my hands even get a little sweaty and I've lost my controller multiple times. That little safety strap is just for show,,,,both popped easily lol. The Touch are really well built though and didn't break despite slamming into the wall/floor multiple times.

Anonymous
Not applicable



Zenbane said:

First off, I consider MrTV's opinions 100% irrelevant at this point.

As for Knuckles, there seems to be a lot there that isn't very practical; but time will tell of course. Completely opening your hand while using your Thumb to move around will likely cause the controller to "move.' This is what makes Oculus Touch so great, is that you are using your bottom to fingers to essentially hold it in place while you perform rugged actions with the analog sticks.

Whereas with Knuckles, opening and closing your hands is very situational, and will likely make simultaneous actions that involve movement a bit unnatural. In the end, I'm willing to bet that people will end up naturally treating these like Oculus Touch controllers, where the bottom two fingers will keep the controller in place at least 90% of the time.


Agreed.

While the Knuckles have further potential than Touch, knuckles still mimics Touch's Trigger, Grip buttons, and thumbstick (along with the capacitive 3 finger tracking) [edit - and it even has the A & B buttons !].  While Knuckle specific games will benefit from the 4th and 5th digit tracking  (Pinky Finger locomotion FTW!!), and the new force/pressure feedback; games developed for BOTH headsets will still cater to the baseline - Trigger, Grip, Thumbstick, and 3 finger tracking.  I expect games to play very similar on both controllers






Yup, I've been saying the same thing for quite some time. You won't see the vast majority of developers using the finger tracking for the ring and pinky fingers because we hardly ever use the things in real life. You could amputate those fingers in real life and the only disadvantage you would have compared to people with all four fingers would be a weaker grip.

You'll see developers using it to enable players to waggle their fingers but that's about it.

Same goes for the grip pressure too. In real life and in video game situations your grip is either on or off. There isn't a single tool that I can think of where pressure sensitivity makes any difference to the use of it.

Now if I was developing my game for both headsets I'd just use the grip being on or off to pick up objects (and have an option in the controls to either toggle the grip button to pick up and drop items or hold the grip button to hold an item and let go to drop the item), have the thumbs up to work opening doors with a thumb print and the pointing index finger to tap in codes to a panel to open some doors.

There's just no need to have individual finger tracking for any sort of scenario apart from wiggling fingers, drinking a cup of tea in a posh manner or doing the Heavy Metal hand signal lol 😮 😄 😄 😄

Wildt
Consultant

Zenbane said:

Completely opening your hand while using your Thumb to move around will likely cause the controller to "move.'
If you tighten the strap decently, and don't go nuts with the force on the stick, this is really not an issue.
Basing this on my time with the Mamut Grips, which evidently has worse straps.
PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
WMR: HP Reverb

Anonymous
Not applicable
And it should also be mentioned that Oculus dropped an almost identical design for the Touch controllers because they had people accidentally throwing the things around the office. Expect to see A LOT of pictures on Reddit of broken tellies, windows, ornaments and injuries to pets and small children lol

CrashFu
Consultant
What are these things made of anyways, if they're only 33% heavier than Touch despite being nearly 200% the size and having all this extra equipment and padded straps and such built into them?

I'd be worried about how much durability they sacrificed to get the weight that low;  The Knuckles will probably smash into pieces the first time you clip a piece of furniture / hit them together / punch yourself in the face trying to adjust your HMD.   Good thing Valve has such an awesome track record when it comes to customer service, huh?  :wink:


It's hard being the voice of reason when you're surrounded by unreasonable people.

kojack
MVP
MVP
To me, the knuckles have the thumb stick and track pad the wrong way around. The thumb stick should be in the middle, for closer access to the buttons. The track pad should be away so pressing a button doesn't result in accidental pad touches. The pad is really close to the buttons. I've had that happen with my steam controller, it has a similar bad design of track pads too close to buttons.
Author: Oculus Monitor,  Auto Oculus Touch,  Forum Dark Mode, Phantom Touch Remover,  X-Plane Fixer
Hardware: Threadripper 1950x, MSI Gaming Trio 2080TI, Asrock X399 Taich
Headsets: Wrap 1200VR, DK1, DK2, CV1, Rift-S, GearVR, Go, Quest, Quest 2, Reverb G2

pyroth309
Visionary

kojack said:

To me, the knuckles have the thumb stick and track pad the wrong way around. The thumb stick should be in the middle, for closer access to the buttons. The track pad should be away so pressing a button doesn't result in accidental pad touches. The pad is really close to the buttons. I've had that happen with my steam controller, it has a similar bad design of track pads too close to buttons.


Agreed. Seems like an unnecessary reach. Even flipping the buttons and pad would be better.


kojack said:

To me, the knuckles have the thumb stick and track pad the wrong way around. The thumb stick should be in the middle, for closer access to the buttons. The track pad should be away so pressing a button doesn't result in accidental pad touches. The pad is really close to the buttons. I've had that happen with my steam controller, it has a similar bad design of track pads too close to buttons.

I wonder if the intention was to put the unique features centre stage to maximize their use... encourage devs to make use of them more thereby making them more of a selling point. But yeah, I think in the end it probably won't be and will just make the more commonly used stick a little more awkward.

kojack
MVP
MVP
I haven't seen anything about it yet (or gone looking for it), but is the track pad on the knuckles 1d or 2d? It wouldn't be great for horizontal touch tracking (too narrow), but does it expose it at all? Is it also a clickable button?



Author: Oculus Monitor,  Auto Oculus Touch,  Forum Dark Mode, Phantom Touch Remover,  X-Plane Fixer
Hardware: Threadripper 1950x, MSI Gaming Trio 2080TI, Asrock X399 Taich
Headsets: Wrap 1200VR, DK1, DK2, CV1, Rift-S, GearVR, Go, Quest, Quest 2, Reverb G2

According to that MRTV vid, they're 2D even though, like you say, they're quite narrow. He didn't mention if they're still clickable though but I'd assume that hasn't changed.