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Index vs Rift S ?

JeremyC85
Heroic Explorer
I'm the type that upgrades WAY too often, and I already have the itch! 

As a loyal Oculus fanboy, the Valve Index looks phenomenal... I am having a hard time pulling the trigger on the Rift S with its compromises (mostly the audio downgrade) Is anyone jumping ship and if so, what pushed you over the edge? I love the Oculus Home and HATE steamVR with such a passion I can't see myself leaving just yet...
79 REPLIES 79

nalex66
MVP
MVP
When it comes to movies, I really dislike the effect of higher frame rate. It looks like the "soap opera effect"--it somehow seems less cinematic and more like people in costumes acting.

Of course, VR is a different thing entirely, and higher frame rate should improve immersion, as Cyber said above.

DK2, CV1, Go, Quest, Quest 2, Quest 3.


Try my game: Cyclops Island Demo

ParadoxAnomaly
Expert Protege

nalex66 said:

When it comes to movies, I really dislike the effect of higher frame rate. It looks like the "soap opera effect"--it somehow seems less cinematic and more like people in costumes acting.

Of course, VR is a different thing entirely, and higher frame rate should improve immersion, as Cyber said above.


But when you watch TV you’re watching at 60hz and no one complains. The soap opera effect is interpolation done badly. Native 48fps should look a lot better than 24fps especially fast paced action scenes.

Anonymous
Not applicable

CrashFu said:



The issue with games is that they are interactive, and the lag causes a disconnect that hurts the experience. This is especially true with VR since it is tracking your head movements and those are particularly sensitive (sort of like how input lag is more noticeable and problematic for mouse movements than gamepads).


When you're talking about lag of less than 1/80th of a second, though.. who is even going to notice?  What kind of game would even have visible functions occurring at that rate?



Side Note:   I say we forget about 90 or 120 or 144 fps and make the new standard for VR  96 fps, twice the framerate of Peter Jackson's The Hobbit.

We can call it "the Double Bilbo".



If you change those two Bs into Ds it gives that name a completely different meaning altogether 😮 😄

ohgrant
Superstar
  The way I see it, Oculus made no bones about the fact that the Rift-S is an incremental upgrade, not really intended for current Rift users. In my view, a wise decision to try to get more people into VR with their release instead of focusing on the high end, in which Valve themselves are struggling to make baby steps. 
 I can certainly see why Rift owners would go with a Rift-S if they don't have a Vive, but right now it looks like the Index in my future. I recently upgraded to the Vive wireless adapter and really loving being wireless. I will probably get the Index controllers first. I'm not happy about the price but will make my wireless time more Rift like. The Index itself, I'll wait. It would only be $499 to me at that point but I'm thinking I can do much better if I wait for a Black Friday sale. 
It is quite possible that the Rift-S will be discounted in that time period. 
 Right now, I've been doing more 3D gaming, I picked up another projector that is 3D vision ready and a 3D vision 120hrz monitor. With the last driver for 3D vision, I want to enjoy the last days of 3D before Windows 10, Steam VR, or Oculus need a driver update. Comparing 3D 120hrz with 3D vision and the same games with Tridef at 60hrz. with my passive 3D monitor. There sure seems a greater advantage in smoothness and immersion with 3D Vision @ 120. I don't know if that will translate the same way in VR, but may be my determining factor in my choice whether or not to pass on the Index. I will wait for reviews on anything I choose to buy. Except the Knuckles controllers, I'm just yearning to fondle them too badly to entertain any notion of restraint.        
Gigabyte  AB350 Ryzen 2700x, 32gb ddr 4 3200, 2080ti. HP Reverb G2, Index controllers, Quest 1 and 2x Quest 2. 65" 3DTV HD3D DLP projector.

pyroth309
Visionary
CrashFu said:
When you're talking about lag of less than 1/80th of a second, though.. who is even going to notice?  What kind of game would even have visible functions occurring at that rate?
Well that's just it, on monitor gaming there's plenty. Csgo is the obvious one and then also games like rocket League. Pretty much anything where you have to make very fast panning movements in a very short period of time.

In VR, I am not sure which games you would really benefit from higher refresh for competitive type reason but I would imagine everything will look a lot smoother considering there so much head movement. But until I try it for myself I can only speculate.

I think something like beat saber may see benefit too because you're moving your hands so rapidly on the Expert Plus levels. May give you a slight Advantage actually to see things faster with a little less input lag since it's also coupled with the lowest persistence panels in VR. But that's just a guess on my part. 

kojack
MVP
MVP
In the case of input lag in Beat Saber, there's no need to tie the input to the headset framerate.
Touch controllers report IMU movement at 500Hz (with correction at 60Hz via the cameras).

So Beat Saber could read hand tracking at a much higher rate, then render the result with a multi-segment blade trail.
(For example, Rift-S games are already doing 160 samples per second: each frame has one sample done by the game then one done in the runtime for timewarp)

Let's say we are swinging a saber 180 degrees in 0.1 seconds. On a Rift-S, that would be 22.5 degrees per frame. A Rift would be 20 degrees. An Index would have 12.5 degrees per frame.
But using full tracking rate you could get it down to 3.6 degrees per segment while still rendering at 80Hz.

Author: Oculus Monitor,  Auto Oculus Touch,  Forum Dark Mode, Phantom Touch Remover,  X-Plane Fixer
Hardware: Threadripper 1950x, MSI Gaming Trio 2080TI, Asrock X399 Taich
Headsets: Wrap 1200VR, DK1, DK2, CV1, Rift-S, GearVR, Go, Quest, Quest 2, Reverb G2

pyroth309
Visionary

kojack said:

In the case of input lag in Beat Saber, there's no need to tie the input to the headset framerate.
Touch controllers report IMU movement at 500Hz (with correction at 60Hz via the cameras).

So Beat Saber could read hand tracking at a much higher rate, then render the result with a multi-segment blade trail.
(For example, Rift-S games are already doing 160 samples per second: each frame has one sample done by the game then one done in the runtime for timewarp)

Let's say we are swinging a saber 180 degrees in 0.1 seconds. On a Rift-S, that would be 22.5 degrees per frame. A Rift would be 20 degrees. An Index would have 12.5 degrees per frame.
But using full tracking rate you could get it down to 3.6 degrees per segment while still rendering at 80Hz.



I was mostly referring to actually seeing where your sword is at any given time and the time required to make a correction from seeing where it is and not so much the actual tracking lag. But that is great info. The time difference would be very small and It was just speculation on my part, but on some of those rapid beat saber maps, you're moving the swords as fast as the human muscles can do lol. 

MowTin
Expert Trustee
The lack of manual IPD adjust is forcing me to buy an Index. I'm 70mm. 

I still ordered a Rift-S. I'll give it a try. 
i7 9700k 3090 rtx   CV1, Rift-S, Index, G2

pyroth309
Visionary
So to elaborate more on what I mean. On the really advanced beat saber maps, the boxes are coming super fast, so fast that they actually begin to blur. I'm thinking a higher refresh would help with the clarity some and also give you a few millisecond advantage for correction over someone running 80hz if you're running 144hz. For an example of a song I mean, look at this one around 30 seconds. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt3lbhihf0o

It could be so small of a difference that it's hard to notice though. I look forward to finding out. 

Anonymous
Not applicable

pyroth309 said:

So to elaborate more on what I mean. On the really advanced beat saber maps, the boxes are coming super fast, so fast that they actually begin to blur. I'm thinking a higher refresh would help with the clarity some and also give you a few millisecond advantage for correction over someone running 80hz if you're running 144hz. For an example of a song I mean, look at this one around 30 seconds. 



They are also increasing the tracking rate with the new LH as well - so in theory you should be getting not just a few millisecond for sight - but also on the controllers as well allowing both to sync up correctly.