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Valve Index - Specifications released.

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  • dburnedburne Posts: 2,859 Valuable Player
    Were it not for having to get the whole kit and caboodle with the Valve Index and the price for all of it, I likely would
    have been all over it. I will have plenty of time with my Rift S before they are even available so will be able to decide if the Rift S is going to be sufficient for my needs. Hope so.
    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,153 Valuable Player
    dburne said:
    Were it not for having to get the whole kit and caboodle with the Valve Index and the price for all of it, I likely would
    have been all over it. I will have plenty of time with my Rift S before they are even available so will be able to decide if the Rift S is going to be sufficient for my needs. Hope so.

    Yup, me too. I could stretch to £700 for the full bundle without a problem but the increased specs compared to the price is just taking the piss. It's at least 200 quid more expensive than it should be.

    It's pretty ridiculous that for the same price you could get a Rift S AND a Quest AND have £120/$200 left over to buy games with, and that the resolution and FOV aren't a great deal higher than that of the Rift S...certainly not 2.3 times higher.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,198 Valuable Player
    My theory is As you only have one head put the best headset on it 😀
  • CrashFuCrashFu Posts: 1,756 Valuable Player
    Luciferous said:
    My theory is As you only have one head put the best headset on it 😀
    So... the Oculus Quest, then?   :kissing_heart:
    It's hard being the voice of reason when you're surrounded by unreasonable people.
  • kojackkojack Posts: 5,699 Volunteer Moderator
    edited May 16

    pyroth309 said:
    Luciferous said:
    My theory is As you only have one head put the best headset on it 😀
    Maybe I should have gotten one of these then. 


    I would definitely buy one if it had of come out, just so I could tell my class we were going to do VR development then take out that thing and see their reaction. :)
    I'll spend a fair bit on something if it has humor value.

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,952 Valuable Player
    snowdog said:
    dburne said:
    Were it not for having to get the whole kit and caboodle with the Valve Index and the price for all of it, I likely would
    have been all over it. I will have plenty of time with my Rift S before they are even available so will be able to decide if the Rift S is going to be sufficient for my needs. Hope so.

    Yup, me too. I could stretch to £700 for the full bundle without a problem but the increased specs compared to the price is just taking the piss. It's at least 200 quid more expensive than it should be.

    It's pretty ridiculous that for the same price you could get a Rift S AND a Quest AND have £120/$200 left over to buy games with, and that the resolution and FOV aren't a great deal higher than that of the Rift S...certainly not 2.3 times higher.

    Seems like US residents don't know how lucky they are - if only the rest of us could get the Index for just 1K - well maybe on Black Friday if we're lucky  :) Over here the Index is priced at $ 1250 (=€ 1079) when buying directly from Valve, sigh. But we do get 2 years of warranty... hooray... 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,576 Valuable Player
    In other news, I was curious about a wireless solution for the Index and I'm now convinced we will definitely get one and even high res headsets should. WiGig version 802.11ay is scheduled to be fully approved in 2020. This will allow a 60ghz wifi solution with speeds of 40Gb/s. More than 4 times what the Vive Pro adapter can do right now on 802.11ad. This means much less compression needed if any at all.  

    Not only that, we're getting an update to Wifi with 801.11ax (aka wifi 6) set to release this year. This would allow anywhere from 4 to 10x more speed over current wifi 5 ghz band. I'm looking forward to some Wireless Index action. 
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,550 Valuable Player
    pyroth309 said:
    In other news, I was curious about a wireless solution for the Index and I'm now convinced we will definitely get one and even high res headsets should. WiGig version 802.11ay is scheduled to be fully approved in 2020. This will allow a 60ghz wifi solution with speeds of 40Gb/s. More than 4 times what the Vive Pro adapter can do right now on 802.11ad. This means much less compression needed if any at all.  

    Not only that, we're getting an update to Wifi with 801.11ax (aka wifi 6) set to release this year. This would allow anywhere from 4 to 10x more speed over current wifi 5 ghz band. I'm looking forward to some Wireless Index action. 
    The only down side to wireless tech is that stuff like that takes years to get out as well. I am sure a company will have a demo - but I would imagination even if they release in 2020 it'll be till 2021 till you see a product using it for example or at least one price reasonably.
  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,113 Valuable Player
    Regarding wireless, IIRC the current implementation in the wireless Vive Pro adapter has a lot of bandwidth headroom  as there's a compression algorithm in the protocol,  so getting to higher framerates should be doable.

    But regardless, I'd be happy to settle with a 90hz limit when wireless, and in that case the tech is already there for sure.
    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
    PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
    WMR: HP Reverb
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,576 Valuable Player
    Wildt said:
    Regarding wireless, IIRC the current implementation in the wireless Vive Pro adapter has a lot of bandwidth headroom  as there's a compression algorithm in the protocol,  so getting to higher framerates should be doable.

    But regardless, I'd be happy to settle with a 90hz limit when wireless, and in that case the tech is already there for sure.
    Yea, that's what I'm thinking the limit might be. Hopefully the compression is enough to allow more but if not, we should get something 3rd party in a year or two that will allow it. 

    The only down side to wireless tech is that stuff like that takes years to get out as well. I am sure a company will have a demo - but I would imagination even if they release in 2020 it'll be till 2021 till you see a product using it for example or at least one price reasonably.
    I remember when Wireless N came out, a bunch of products with the Draft versions came out before the final version was released. I wonder if that's a possibility for this as Wigig 802.11ay is currently in Draft 1.2 and I think there's already some routers out that support it. Either way, next gen shouldn't have this problem. 

  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,198 Valuable Player
    edited May 16
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZnEJKFRf8Y

    Some knuckles action
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,153 Valuable Player
    Dear Oculus, after reading on your official forums that wireless is fantastic and the way to go I immediately cut the cable on my toaster only to find that my bread doesn't toast anymore. Thanks for ruining my fucking breakfast. Fuck you, I'm buying a Vive.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,198 Valuable Player
    edited May 16
    Bit off topic but saw this Zenbane and thought of you :)

    https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/16/18628059/arduino-mega-htc-vive-vr-james-bruton?fbclid=IwAR09rqLcgXeEwlrbpb1L1I3BS872M2UlMoGCWKL6gajSlDOBw9IdYPzFw_s

    But don't worry about the high cost of set up, Atmos has volunteered to take the robots place for no fee.  :D
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,952 Valuable Player
    Another review of Knuckles:

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,576 Valuable Player
    edited May 17
    Luciferous said:
    Bit off topic but saw this Zenbane and thought of you :)

    https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/16/18628059/arduino-mega-htc-vive-vr-james-bruton?fbclid=IwAR09rqLcgXeEwlrbpb1L1I3BS872M2UlMoGCWKL6gajSlDOBw9IdYPzFw_s

    But don't worry about the high cost of set up, Atmos has volunteered to take the robots place for no fee.  :D
    I'd love to reprogram that thing to do nothing but groin shots and then film the next person up and put it on youtube. 
  • KlodsBrikKlodsBrik Posts: 1,201
    Wintermute
    Thats definately beginning to look great!
    Be good, die great !
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,153 Valuable Player
    I loved Technolust, that might have been the first game I backed on Kickstarter I think.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,576 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Not sure the game will be available this year... But it's starting to look great:


    Looks a lot like Aircar, which is a good thing. That's a game that I always wish was expanded to be more into a full game. Glad to see someone is doing it. This will be high on my wish list for sure. 
  • CalibosCalibos Posts: 103
    Art3mis
    Mradr said:
    pyroth309 said:
    In other news, I was curious about a wireless solution for the Index and I'm now convinced we will definitely get one and even high res headsets should. WiGig version 802.11ay is scheduled to be fully approved in 2020. This will allow a 60ghz wifi solution with speeds of 40Gb/s. More than 4 times what the Vive Pro adapter can do right now on 802.11ad. This means much less compression needed if any at all.  

    Not only that, we're getting an update to Wifi with 801.11ax (aka wifi 6) set to release this year. This would allow anywhere from 4 to 10x more speed over current wifi 5 ghz band. I'm looking forward to some Wireless Index action. 
    The only down side to wireless tech is that stuff like that takes years to get out as well. I am sure a company will have a demo - but I would imagination even if they release in 2020 it'll be till 2021 till you see a product using it for example or at least one price reasonably.
    A theory I've posted a lot about (moreso on r/oculus) since Abrashs' OC5 2018 keynote where he talks about Eyetracking with Deep Learning pixel reconstruction Foveated Rendering is that Standalone/mobile VR needs this tech as much if not more than PCVR in order for mobile VR to deliver richer higher res/fov experiences with their mobile GPU's. We've just recently seen Qualcomm announce a new VR specific Mali DSP chip (as opposed to a carmack repurposed already existing DSP) for its SOC's. This is a good sign for the future that Qualcomm will want to work with the likes of Oculus to integrate a dedicated Neural Net trained Pixel reconstruction chip on a future SOC.

    You want that chip and the increased specs it allows on your standalone for the reasons I outlined above but the beauty of this pixel recontruction type of foveated rendering and its 95% reduction in pixel rendering load is that you effectively get Wireless PCVR functionality for free. You only need to conventionally render 5% of your pixels on your PC GPU and only those 5% need to be sent over the wireless link to the HMD because the other 95% can be reconstructed on the HMD itself. This massive bandwidth saving means you can use the conventional 5ghz non line of sight 5ghz WIFI of the day (2022). ie. No need for exotic 60ghz LOS wifi with expensive specialist power hungry transmitters and receivers and dedicated routers with big head mounted antenna etc etc (cause 60ghz is blocked by a sheet of paper nevermind your head or hair.) Being able to use non LOS 5ghz WIFI means every SOC and motherboard, laptop and console already has the required WIFI tech built in and the antenna can be invisibly integrated into the VR HMD headstrap.

    In other words, if the pixel reconstruction can be done on a low powered dedicated chip on an SOC rather than the Turing cores on an nVidia GPU, then there wont be a Quest 2.0 or Rift 2.0 because they will have merged into an AIO device.
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,576 Valuable Player
    Calibos said:
    Mradr said:
    pyroth309 said:
    In other news, I was curious about a wireless solution for the Index and I'm now convinced we will definitely get one and even high res headsets should. WiGig version 802.11ay is scheduled to be fully approved in 2020. This will allow a 60ghz wifi solution with speeds of 40Gb/s. More than 4 times what the Vive Pro adapter can do right now on 802.11ad. This means much less compression needed if any at all.  

    Not only that, we're getting an update to Wifi with 801.11ax (aka wifi 6) set to release this year. This would allow anywhere from 4 to 10x more speed over current wifi 5 ghz band. I'm looking forward to some Wireless Index action. 
    The only down side to wireless tech is that stuff like that takes years to get out as well. I am sure a company will have a demo - but I would imagination even if they release in 2020 it'll be till 2021 till you see a product using it for example or at least one price reasonably.
    A theory I've posted a lot about (moreso on r/oculus) since Abrashs' OC5 2018 keynote where he talks about Eyetracking with Deep Learning pixel reconstruction Foveated Rendering is that Standalone/mobile VR needs this tech as much if not more than PCVR in order for mobile VR to deliver richer higher res/fov experiences with their mobile GPU's. We've just recently seen Qualcomm announce a new VR specific Mali DSP chip (as opposed to a carmack repurposed already existing DSP) for its SOC's. This is a good sign for the future that Qualcomm will want to work with the likes of Oculus to integrate a dedicated Neural Net trained Pixel reconstruction chip on a future SOC.

    You want that chip and the increased specs it allows on your standalone for the reasons I outlined above but the beauty of this pixel recontruction type of foveated rendering and its 95% reduction in pixel rendering load is that you effectively get Wireless PCVR functionality for free. You only need to conventionally render 5% of your pixels on your PC GPU and only those 5% need to be sent over the wireless link to the HMD because the other 95% can be reconstructed on the HMD itself. This massive bandwidth saving means you can use the conventional 5ghz non line of sight 5ghz WIFI of the day (2022). ie. No need for exotic 60ghz LOS wifi with expensive specialist power hungry transmitters and receivers and dedicated routers with big head mounted antenna etc etc (cause 60ghz is blocked by a sheet of paper nevermind your head or hair.) Being able to use non LOS 5ghz WIFI means every SOC and motherboard, laptop and console already has the required WIFI tech built in and the antenna can be invisibly integrated into the VR HMD headstrap.

    In other words, if the pixel reconstruction can be done on a low powered dedicated chip on an SOC rather than the Turing cores on an nVidia GPU, then there wont be a Quest 2.0 or Rift 2.0 because they will have merged into an AIO device.
    This is actually something I've thought about but lacked the specifics/tech expertise to comment on. Google's stadia had me wondering about the possibility of streaming straight to a headset with them doing the rendering and what it would take to make that happen. The Matrix is coming lol.

    I should go watch Abrash' keynote as I never did.

    And yea I also 100% agree WiGIG is too much of a problem for mass adoption but I'll take it if that's all we have right now. 



  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,952 Valuable Player
    edited May 19
    Some dude compared Michael Abrash's Steam Dev Days 2014 prediction for HMD requirements with known specs for the Index - maybe a fun comparison  B)

    Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/bql8ev/i_made_a_chart_comparing_michael_abrashs_steam/

    - and this video may indicate why Valve needs to launch the Knuckles now... Still we may need some buttons  B)



    Note that Neos VR only tracks your fingers when the sensors can see them (fov about 135 degrees, somewhat similar to WMR controller tracking for now), but the tech is now supporting the Knuckles - like shown in a previous video in this thread.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
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