Valve Index - Specifications released.

dburne · May 15

Were it not for having to get the whole kit and caboodle with the Valve Index and the price for all of it, I likely would
have been all over it. I will have plenty of time with my Rift S before they are even available so will be able to decide if the Rift S is going to be sufficient for my needs. Hope so.

snowdog · May 15

dburne said:

Were it not for having to get the whole kit and caboodle with the Valve Index and the price for all of it, I likely would
have been all over it. I will have plenty of time with my Rift S before they are even available so will be able to decide if the Rift S is going to be sufficient for my needs. Hope so.

Yup, me too. I could stretch to £700 for the full bundle without a problem but the increased specs compared to the price is just taking the piss. It's at least 200 quid more expensive than it should be.

It's pretty ridiculous that for the same price you could get a Rift S AND a Quest AND have £120/$200 left over to buy games with, and that the resolution and FOV aren't a great deal higher than that of the Rift S...certainly not 2.3 times higher.

Luciferous · May 15

My theory is As you only have one head put the best headset on it 😀

pyroth309 · May 15

Luciferous said:

My theory is As you only have one head put the best headset on it 😀

Maybe I should have gotten one of these then.

CrashFu · May 15

Luciferous said:

My theory is As you only have one head put the best headset on it 😀

So... the Oculus Quest, then?

kojack · May 15

pyroth309 said:

Luciferous said:

My theory is As you only have one head put the best headset on it 😀

Maybe I should have gotten one of these then.

I would definitely buy one if it had of come out, just so I could tell my class we were going to do VR development then take out that thing and see their reaction.

I'll spend a fair bit on something if it has humor value.

RuneSR2 · May 16

snowdog said:

dburne said:

Were it not for having to get the whole kit and caboodle with the Valve Index and the price for all of it, I likely would
have been all over it. I will have plenty of time with my Rift S before they are even available so will be able to decide if the Rift S is going to be sufficient for my needs. Hope so.

Yup, me too. I could stretch to £700 for the full bundle without a problem but the increased specs compared to the price is just taking the piss. It's at least 200 quid more expensive than it should be.

It's pretty ridiculous that for the same price you could get a Rift S AND a Quest AND have £120/$200 left over to buy games with, and that the resolution and FOV aren't a great deal higher than that of the Rift S...certainly not 2.3 times higher.

Seems like US residents don't know how lucky they are - if only the rest of us could get the Index for just 1K - well maybe on Black Friday if we're lucky

Over here the Index is priced at $ 1250 (=€ 1079) when buying directly from Valve, sigh. But we do get 2 years of warranty... hooray...

kojack · May 16

RuneSR2 said:

Over here the Index is priced at $ 1250 (=€ 1079) when buying directly from Valve, sigh.

Here the price is "Not Available In Your Country".

I guess Valve are still sore over losing that lawsuit australia brought against them for screwing over consumer rights laws.

Luciferous · May 16

I think its because they are worried over health and safety. The design does not have a chin strap and so will likely fall off injuring somebody....... as you are upside down.

kojack · May 16

Luciferous said:

I think its because they are worried over health and safety. The design does not have a chin strap and so will likely fall off injuring somebody....... as you are upside down.

pyroth309 · May 16

In other news, I was curious about a wireless solution for the Index and I'm now convinced we will definitely get one and even high res headsets should. WiGig version 802.11ay is scheduled to be fully approved in 2020. This will allow a 60ghz wifi solution with speeds of 40Gb/s. More than 4 times what the Vive Pro adapter can do right now on 802.11ad. This means much less compression needed if any at all.

Not only that, we're getting an update to Wifi with 801.11ax (aka wifi 6) set to release this year. This would allow anywhere from 4 to 10x more speed over current wifi 5 ghz band. I'm looking forward to some Wireless Index action.

Mradr · May 16

pyroth309 said:

In other news, I was curious about a wireless solution for the Index and I'm now convinced we will definitely get one and even high res headsets should. WiGig version 802.11ay is scheduled to be fully approved in 2020. This will allow a 60ghz wifi solution with speeds of 40Gb/s. More than 4 times what the Vive Pro adapter can do right now on 802.11ad. This means much less compression needed if any at all.

Not only that, we're getting an update to Wifi with 801.11ax (aka wifi 6) set to release this year. This would allow anywhere from 4 to 10x more speed over current wifi 5 ghz band. I'm looking forward to some Wireless Index action.

The only down side to wireless tech is that stuff like that takes years to get out as well. I am sure a company will have a demo - but I would imagination even if they release in 2020 it'll be till 2021 till you see a product using it for example or at least one price reasonably.

Wildt · May 16

Regarding wireless, IIRC the current implementation in the wireless Vive Pro adapter has a lot of bandwidth headroom as there's a compression algorithm in the protocol, so getting to higher framerates should be doable.

But regardless, I'd be happy to settle with a 90hz limit when wireless, and in that case the tech is already there for sure.

kevinw729 · May 16

pyroth309 · May 16

Wildt said:

Regarding wireless, IIRC the current implementation in the wireless Vive Pro adapter has a lot of bandwidth headroom as there's a compression algorithm in the protocol, so getting to higher framerates should be doable.

But regardless, I'd be happy to settle with a 90hz limit when wireless, and in that case the tech is already there for sure.

Yea, that's what I'm thinking the limit might be. Hopefully the compression is enough to allow more but if not, we should get something 3rd party in a year or two that will allow it.

The only down side to wireless tech is that stuff like that takes years to get out as well. I am sure a company will have a demo - but I would imagination even if they release in 2020 it'll be till 2021 till you see a product using it for example or at least one price reasonably.

I remember when Wireless N came out, a bunch of products with the Draft versions came out before the final version was released. I wonder if that's a possibility for this as Wigig 802.11ay is currently in Draft 1.2 and I think there's already some routers out that support it. Either way, next gen shouldn't have this problem.

Luciferous · May 16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZnEJKFRf8Y

Some knuckles action

snowdog · May 16

Dear Oculus, after reading on your official forums that wireless is fantastic and the way to go I immediately cut the cable on my toaster only to find that my bread doesn't toast anymore. Thanks for ruining my fucking breakfast. Fuck you, I'm buying a Vive.

Zenbane · May 16

Bruhs...

The Knuckles are bigger than this poor girls head:

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024342/uploads/editor/tz/tbqg6jgahb1w.png

CrashFu · May 16

2016:

2019:

2022:

pyroth309 · May 16

Someone on reddit finally made the powerglove actually work.

Image: https://i.redd.it/pui6lc2k2oy21.jpg

Luciferous · May 17

Bit off topic but saw this Zenbane and thought of you

https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/16/18628059/arduino-mega-htc-vive-vr-james-bruton?fbclid=IwAR09rqLcgXeEwlrbpb1L1I3BS872M2UlMoGCWKL6gajSlDOBw9IdYPzFw_s

But don't worry about the high cost of set up, Atmos has volunteered to take the robots place for no fee.

RuneSR2 · May 17

Another review of Knuckles:

pyroth309 · May 17

Luciferous said:

Bit off topic but saw this Zenbane and thought of you

https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/16/18628059/arduino-mega-htc-vive-vr-james-bruton?fbclid=IwAR09rqLcgXeEwlrbpb1L1I3BS872M2UlMoGCWKL6gajSlDOBw9IdYPzFw_s

But don't worry about the high cost of set up, Atmos has volunteered to take the robots place for no fee.

I'd love to reprogram that thing to do nothing but groin shots and then film the next person up and put it on youtube.

RuneSR2 · May 18

Not sure the game will be available this year... But it's starting to look great:

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024342/uploads/editor/l4/1md2a50ppo11.jpg

KlodsBrik · May 18

Thats definately beginning to look great!

snowdog · May 18

I loved Technolust, that might have been the first game I backed on Kickstarter I think.

pyroth309 · May 18

RuneSR2 said:

Not sure the game will be available this year... But it's starting to look great:

Looks a lot like Aircar, which is a good thing. That's a game that I always wish was expanded to be more into a full game. Glad to see someone is doing it. This will be high on my wish list for sure.

Calibos · May 19

Mradr said:

pyroth309 said:

In other news, I was curious about a wireless solution for the Index and I'm now convinced we will definitely get one and even high res headsets should. WiGig version 802.11ay is scheduled to be fully approved in 2020. This will allow a 60ghz wifi solution with speeds of 40Gb/s. More than 4 times what the Vive Pro adapter can do right now on 802.11ad. This means much less compression needed if any at all.

Not only that, we're getting an update to Wifi with 801.11ax (aka wifi 6) set to release this year. This would allow anywhere from 4 to 10x more speed over current wifi 5 ghz band. I'm looking forward to some Wireless Index action.

The only down side to wireless tech is that stuff like that takes years to get out as well. I am sure a company will have a demo - but I would imagination even if they release in 2020 it'll be till 2021 till you see a product using it for example or at least one price reasonably.

A theory I've posted a lot about (moreso on r/oculus) since Abrashs' OC5 2018 keynote where he talks about Eyetracking with Deep Learning pixel reconstruction Foveated Rendering is that Standalone/mobile VR needs this tech as much if not more than PCVR in order for mobile VR to deliver richer higher res/fov experiences with their mobile GPU's. We've just recently seen Qualcomm announce a new VR specific Mali DSP chip (as opposed to a carmack repurposed already existing DSP) for its SOC's. This is a good sign for the future that Qualcomm will want to work with the likes of Oculus to integrate a dedicated Neural Net trained Pixel reconstruction chip on a future SOC.

You want that chip and the increased specs it allows on your standalone for the reasons I outlined above but the beauty of this pixel recontruction type of foveated rendering and its 95% reduction in pixel rendering load is that you effectively get Wireless PCVR functionality for free. You only need to conventionally render 5% of your pixels on your PC GPU and only those 5% need to be sent over the wireless link to the HMD because the other 95% can be reconstructed on the HMD itself. This massive bandwidth saving means you can use the conventional 5ghz non line of sight 5ghz WIFI of the day (2022). ie. No need for exotic 60ghz LOS wifi with expensive specialist power hungry transmitters and receivers and dedicated routers with big head mounted antenna etc etc (cause 60ghz is blocked by a sheet of paper nevermind your head or hair.) Being able to use non LOS 5ghz WIFI means every SOC and motherboard, laptop and console already has the required WIFI tech built in and the antenna can be invisibly integrated into the VR HMD headstrap.

In other words, if the pixel reconstruction can be done on a low powered dedicated chip on an SOC rather than the Turing cores on an nVidia GPU, then there wont be a Quest 2.0 or Rift 2.0 because they will have merged into an AIO device.

pyroth309 · May 19

Calibos said:

Mradr said:

pyroth309 said:

In other news, I was curious about a wireless solution for the Index and I'm now convinced we will definitely get one and even high res headsets should. WiGig version 802.11ay is scheduled to be fully approved in 2020. This will allow a 60ghz wifi solution with speeds of 40Gb/s. More than 4 times what the Vive Pro adapter can do right now on 802.11ad. This means much less compression needed if any at all.

Not only that, we're getting an update to Wifi with 801.11ax (aka wifi 6) set to release this year. This would allow anywhere from 4 to 10x more speed over current wifi 5 ghz band. I'm looking forward to some Wireless Index action.

The only down side to wireless tech is that stuff like that takes years to get out as well. I am sure a company will have a demo - but I would imagination even if they release in 2020 it'll be till 2021 till you see a product using it for example or at least one price reasonably.

A theory I've posted a lot about (moreso on r/oculus) since Abrashs' OC5 2018 keynote where he talks about Eyetracking with Deep Learning pixel reconstruction Foveated Rendering is that Standalone/mobile VR needs this tech as much if not more than PCVR in order for mobile VR to deliver richer higher res/fov experiences with their mobile GPU's. We've just recently seen Qualcomm announce a new VR specific Mali DSP chip (as opposed to a carmack repurposed already existing DSP) for its SOC's. This is a good sign for the future that Qualcomm will want to work with the likes of Oculus to integrate a dedicated Neural Net trained Pixel reconstruction chip on a future SOC.

You want that chip and the increased specs it allows on your standalone for the reasons I outlined above but the beauty of this pixel recontruction type of foveated rendering and its 95% reduction in pixel rendering load is that you effectively get Wireless PCVR functionality for free. You only need to conventionally render 5% of your pixels on your PC GPU and only those 5% need to be sent over the wireless link to the HMD because the other 95% can be reconstructed on the HMD itself. This massive bandwidth saving means you can use the conventional 5ghz non line of sight 5ghz WIFI of the day (2022). ie. No need for exotic 60ghz LOS wifi with expensive specialist power hungry transmitters and receivers and dedicated routers with big head mounted antenna etc etc (cause 60ghz is blocked by a sheet of paper nevermind your head or hair.) Being able to use non LOS 5ghz WIFI means every SOC and motherboard, laptop and console already has the required WIFI tech built in and the antenna can be invisibly integrated into the VR HMD headstrap.

In other words, if the pixel reconstruction can be done on a low powered dedicated chip on an SOC rather than the Turing cores on an nVidia GPU, then there wont be a Quest 2.0 or Rift 2.0 because they will have merged into an AIO device.

This is actually something I've thought about but lacked the specifics/tech expertise to comment on. Google's stadia had me wondering about the possibility of streaming straight to a headset with them doing the rendering and what it would take to make that happen. The Matrix is coming lol.

I should go watch Abrash' keynote as I never did.

And yea I also 100% agree WiGIG is too much of a problem for mass adoption but I'll take it if that's all we have right now.

RuneSR2 · May 19

Some dude compared Michael Abrash's Steam Dev Days 2014 prediction for HMD requirements with known specs for the Index - maybe a fun comparison

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024342/uploads/editor/up/fd2qnetrxr5x.png

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/bql8ev/i_made_a_chart_comparing_michael_abrashs_steam/

- and this video may indicate why Valve needs to launch the Knuckles now... Still we may need some buttons

Note that Neos VR only tracks your fingers when the sensors can see them (fov about 135 degrees, somewhat similar to WMR controller tracking for now), but the tech is now supporting the Knuckles - like shown in a previous video in this thread.

Valve Index - Specifications released.

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Valve Index - Specifications released.

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