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Rift S - Please read before you buy - Tracking problems with realistic FPS sims & Archery

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  • saami81saami81 Posts: 195
    Art3mis
    Scopes and iron sights with rifles is a real problem, but cant find any problem with archery when playing as usual.

    I use bow similary as i have always used in SkyrimVR and people in youtube playing In death seems to prefer my way. Which is right hand below ear close to chin. It is even method that people use with real bows. Judging to pictures i found in internet.
  • jayhawkjayhawk Posts: 824
    3Jane
    saami81 said:
     Which is right hand below ear close to chin. It is even method that people use with real bows. Judging to pictures i found in internet.
    Um ya I was going to say....that's how you shoot a bow.
  • Comic_Book_GuyComic_Book_Guy Posts: 1,212
    3Jane
    edited May 2019
    i return mine, , big deception.Is not an software problem, is the headset itself ! i not want pass my return date and got problem with company after ,i prefer return and wait and see later what happen
    Your logic is flawed. If it was the headset, mine wouldn't be making me very happy. It may have been your ( singular) headset. A defective unit.
  • jayhawkjayhawk Posts: 824
    3Jane
    i return mine, , big deception.Is not an software problem, is the headset itself ! i not want pass my return date and got problem with company after ,i prefer return and wait and see later what happen
    Your logic is flawed. If it was the headset, mine wouldn't be making me very happy. It may have been your ( singular) headset. A defective unit.
    Your logic is flawed. You basically just implied the sound logic is whether it makes you happy or not. Maybe you're easy to please, or playing games that doesn't require the controller close to the HMD. Just sayin' lol.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,018 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    CrashFu said:
    The forums right now are flooded with people threatening to return their Rift-S to the store over minor, specific-case tracking issues. Hell, that's half of this thread alone.

    So yes, clearly a number of people expected the Rift-S to work 100% perfectly at launch. Some even going so far as to say "there's no excuse for it not being perfect".

    Most of my comments were directed more towards those people than to you specifically, although "a compromise too far" sounds a lot like "Doomed!" to me. 
    :wink:

    P.S.  no offense intended towards anyone by my earlier "casual consumers" comment. There's nothing wrong with being a casual consumer and wanting things to just work how you expect them to the day you buy them.  I, as an enthusiast and early-adopter, simply take pride in being able to see things through, and focus on the potential of new tech rather than stressing over small, temporary problems.

    I except there are a lot of PC setups and that might cause different issues, but the issues I'm having are not computer related. I have 2 computers and I have the same problem on both. The tracking is lost under the headset because there is no camera to track my controller when my arm is rested by my side while holding a rifle.

    I have also spoken about the problems it cause me by not having my arm rested by my side. That moving my arm out is not only uncomfortable for me, but that it also makes the scopes on my rifle move forwards.

    I think the OP is talking about the same problem as I am judging by what he has said.. 

  • ShocksVRShocksVR Posts: 486
    Trinity
    edited May 2019
    MowTin said:
    Yiykes, this is sounding like a disaster. How long do you have to return? I guess I'll have to test this out in Skyrim VR. 

    This is confusing....


    That's pretty much how my tracking is on BS (Oculus store version). Heck I beat KDA Stars on expert yesterday (took me a few tries), so I'm happy :D
    i7-7700k, GTX 1080Ti (11G) || MSI B150m (1 USB controller) + Inateck 4-port USB to PCIe (2nd USB controller)
    Oculus Rift S
    Oculus GO
    Oculus RIFT - 3 sensor Room-scale
  • Comic_Book_GuyComic_Book_Guy Posts: 1,212
    3Jane
    edited May 2019
    jayhawk said:
    i return mine, , big deception.Is not an software problem, is the headset itself ! i not want pass my return date and got problem with company after ,i prefer return and wait and see later what happen
    Your logic is flawed. If it was the headset, mine wouldn't be making me very happy. It may have been your ( singular) headset. A defective unit.
    Your logic is flawed. You basically just implied the sound logic is whether it makes you happy or not. Maybe you're easy to please, or playing games that doesn't require the controller close to the HMD. Just sayin' lol.
    My logic is not flawed. He rants about the headset as if ALL of them are problematic, which isn't the case. He's going to return it and wait a year like he's been scared off. Erma gerd how can they sell everyone a non-working headset! It's kinda funny. If yours doesn't work, you have a defective unit, or your hardware is flaky /too old.

    I couldn't care less to play it. Same shit as any other PVP FPS...walking along BOOM DEAD. ya, no thanks. That's not fun. But improvements are on the way, John Carmack him self commented on this so lets not beat a dead horse as far as that's concerned. But suffice to say, a small issue in a niche shooter than most people don't give a shit about doesn't make or break anything. But many people are playing it no problem. Stop putting the controllers so close? Play something else?

  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,018 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    MowTin said:
    Yiykes, this is sounding like a disaster. How long do you have to return? I guess I'll have to test this out in Skyrim VR. 

    This is confusing....


    That's pretty much how my tracking is on BS (Oculus store version). Heck I beat KDA Stars on expert yesterday (took me a few tries), so I'm happy :D

    The thread is about First Person Shooters being a problem and not Beat Saber to be fair.
  • ShocksVRShocksVR Posts: 486
    Trinity
    RedRizla said:
    MowTin said:
    Yiykes, this is sounding like a disaster. How long do you have to return? I guess I'll have to test this out in Skyrim VR. 

    This is confusing....


    That's pretty much how my tracking is on BS (Oculus store version). Heck I beat KDA Stars on expert yesterday (took me a few tries), so I'm happy :D

    The thread is about First Person Shooters being a problem and not Beat Saber to be fair.
    Ok. I just remembered, grenade throwing in Pavlov seems to be easier and have more force than with the old Touch.  I also noticed the same in Contractors.  Perhaps the new Touch have better velocity metrics than the old controllers ?
    i7-7700k, GTX 1080Ti (11G) || MSI B150m (1 USB controller) + Inateck 4-port USB to PCIe (2nd USB controller)
    Oculus Rift S
    Oculus GO
    Oculus RIFT - 3 sensor Room-scale
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,018 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    Ok. I just remembered, grenade throwing in Pavlov seems to be easier and have more force than with the old Touch.  I also noticed the same in Contractors.  Perhaps the new Touch have better velocity metrics than the old controllers ?

    That's good to know, I'm not sure about velocity metrics tbh. But the thread is about problems with rifles and scopes. I would expect throwing a grenade to work fine and also other games that don't require you to hold a rifle to work great. But the OP is talking about rifles & bows and nothing else. He has already said he is enjoying other games that don't require you to hold a rifle.

    I don't have a problem throwing grenades with Rift CV1 controllers though tbh.
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,328
    Project 2501
    edited May 2019
    kojack said:

    Since the Rift-S doesn't have IR LEDs, external CV1 sensors can't track it. They should be able to track new Touch, but not the headset. That means you've got two different coordinate systems that need to be synced.

    Oh I didn't know this, well the headset seems to track it's self fine, I've not noticed any issues in that particular area so I guess it's just the Touch controllers we want tracked better.

    How likely do you think it is they will implement this in a software patch to use the old Constellation tracking for Touch 2.0?

    RuneSR2 said:

    I guess any dream of getting Rift-S to work with the old sensors seems dead, unfortunately. 

    Didn't we hear a rumour a while back that they would consider patching in Constellation tracking later down the line? Or perhaps I am wrong? I might be going crazy and imagining things?  :p

    If they don't patch it in for whatever reason, that will be quite sad, I tried playing Onward again tonight but I couldn't manage it as my arms were already hurting from the gym + Audica and the only way I could aim was to hold my arms out in front of my chest, I tried experimenting but couldn't find a comfortable position.

    BTW here's a funny thought...what will the community end up calling Rift S in the future? Before it's release people called it Rift 1.5, but now I'm thinking it currently sits at Rift 1.1, I think that's a better description lol. 

    The thing is, it's not all doom and gloom because I'm still enjoying playing with Rift S and I'm still blown away by the visual quality, when your playing other games it's just perfect for me now. It's how I always wanted my Rift CV1 to be. And if I end up having to use a mixture of the two headsets until CV2 comes along then so be it.

    I know I'm probably in the minority of people who will find satisfaction with an imperfect headset but I guess I'm easily pleased. Or maybe it's just I'm so happy with the areas that it does work that I'm not willing to refund it because of the areas it doesn't work.

    I'm even using my own headphones and it's not bothered me as much as I thought it would. Every day I come home from work and I launch Audica on Rift S and I try to beat Zenbane's top scores which I managed tonight on a few songs, and I even tried to go after the top guy on my friends list who is WildT but he's an animal playing on expert difficulty where as I can only manage normal difficulty! So his top scores are safe for now! lol

    EDIT: Going back to software updates for Rift S and if they can potentially make things partially better for Rifle+scopes/Archery games. I'm thinking if they can it's more likely it would benefit Archery games then Rifle games+scopes because I think I hold my right hand with a bow close to the right side of my head where there is a camera, but with rifles I think I hold it slightly lower below the headset but still quite close.

    So logic tells me they could potentially help Archery games but without a camera below the headset covering your shoulder area I can't see how they could make improvements to the tracking when using a rile+scope in Onward/Pavlov/Contractors. 

    I guess we'll just have to wait a see what happens in next few weeks.
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Rift CV1 & Rift S - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • FanibleFanible Posts: 26
    Brain Burst
    edited May 2019
    Still holding out hope for an eventual update for external sensors.  At least having the option if I need/want them.  Archery is pretty much bunk using the Rift S, at least so far on the games I've tried (haven't fired up Skyrim yet).  Unless they have wider birds-eye sensors they can add on the sides, this new tracking system they claim is the future doesn't really work well enough to say that without batting an eye.

    I haven't had TOO much of an issue with Pavlov.  I can't speak for Onward.  You definitely can't bring sights RIGHT up to your eye, but you can fairly close and I've had no issue playing with my mates after getting used to it.  Sadly, what's really thrown me off for shooters is the new controllers.  The rings get in the way.  Reloading pistols, for example, is a pain in the ass, because you can't grab the top of the gun because the rings are in the way.

    As said, archery isn't great on the Rift-S, which sucks because I love archery in games.  You can KINDA make it work, but you have to do some weird backwards stuff.  Like once the sensors have lost sight of your hand pulling back the arrow, it sticks there until it sees it again.  So you can kinda just work around it by aiming with the bow and leaving the drawn hand staying put until released.

    Going back to software updates for Rift S and if they can potentially make things partially better for Rifle+scopes/Archery games. I'm thinking if they can it's more likely it would benefit Archery games then Rifle games+scopes because I think I hold my right hand with a bow close to the right side of my head where there is a camera, but with rifles I think I hold it slightly lower below the headset but still quite close. 

    So logic tells me they could potentially help Archery games but without a camera below the headset covering your shoulder area I can't see how they could make improvements to the tracking when using a rile+scope in Onward/Pavlov/Contractors. 

    I guess we'll just have to wait a see what happens in next few weeks.

    I'm hoping you're right.  I actually have managed to get used to holding my gun/sight in front of my head and it works well enough once I've gotten used to it.  Archery has been nearly a complete no go.  I do the same, bringing my hand back next to my head.  You would THINK that sensor should keep picking it up.  Although a lot of people bring their hand back just below their chin or right on it, so the sensors definitely aren't going to pick that up.

    But then again the sensors seem to lose track if you just hold them too close the cameras in general.  Like for example, hold a controller up to the center of the two front cameras (your "eyes").  It loses it.  Then go into Passthrough.  You can actually see bringing the controller up to the center of the two eye cameras loses sight of the controller.

    I actually love picking up objects and examining up close and the Rift-S doesn't allow me to do this as easily.  As soon as I bring something up to my eyes a little too close, the tracking on the controllers start going wonky.
  • FanibleFanible Posts: 26
    Brain Burst
    I only mentioned it briefly, but is anyone else experiencing the same when it comes to the new controller design?  When it comes to shooters and reloading certain guns, I really hate the rings being on top.  I've been getting used to the new touch controllers, but I STILL really miss the original ones.  The first gen touch controllers were perfectly designed and so well-balanced.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,160 Valuable Player
    urdgfqqehbbb.png
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  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 4,153 Valuable Player
    obviously not for this generation however i wonder if going forward if future oculus touch controllers could not have a single sensor put on them.  would no doubt affect battery life but if each controller had a sensor on it, combined with the existing tracking, then maybe that could be a best of all worlds.
    happier than ever to stick with my CV1 now.  i actually tried to buy a rift last friday, i am glad i failed now. (slightly more dissapointed i failed to get a quest for the discounted price however)
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • Neo_33Neo_33 Posts: 11
    NerveGear
    Neo_33 said:
    I don't really have a problem with shooting arrows in Apex Construct with the Rift S.  Maybe its a software issue.  The Rift S is new with new tracking tech compared to the original Rift so maybe software updates to the games will fix this.  
    Is Apex Construct a good buy?
    I enjoyed the game. The combat was fun dodging and shooting robots. It has both locomotion and teleporting feature. I used both. Game gets a little interesting as you progress as enemies eventually get shields so you have to quickly change your arrows to take down their shields and then kill them. Not the best graphics in the world but still look nice if you crank them up. 
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,328
    Project 2501
    Fanible said:
    I only mentioned it briefly, but is anyone else experiencing the same when it comes to the new controller design?  When it comes to shooters and reloading certain guns, I really hate the rings being on top.  I've been getting used to the new touch controllers, but I STILL really miss the original ones.  The first gen touch controllers were perfectly designed and so well-balanced.

    I know what you mean, I don't mind them tbh, but I probably would agree that the first generation Touch controllers were better. Like for example, the analogue sticks material has changed and also they're smaller, but I'd of preferred them the size they were before and the same material.

    I've not noticed "yet" the knocking into other weapons when reloading with the rings but that's no doubt because I'm not really playing those sort of games yet on Rift S due to the tracking issues.

    Another small thing I noticed is before I could kind of throw the controllers around more, I could swing them around my wrist as long as obviously they were attached to my wrist with the straps lol. And then when doing this they would land perfectly the right way up in the palm of my hand, but now they don't do that now. So before it was like holding a gun and spinning it around and catching it if you get why I mean? I don't know if anybody else used to try this technique? haha

    But overall they're quite a close match to the original Touch controllers, they're still pretty good, I'd give the original Touch 9.5/10 and the new Touch 8.5/10.

    Oh and I agree with what others have said, they don't vibrate as powerful anymore either! lol  :p
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Rift CV1 & Rift S - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • rooL-rooL- Posts: 2
    NerveGear
    the only thing i have to mention bout bad tracking.. it just shouldnt be bright.. if its normal day ligh fine... but if the sun shines into your window u need to darken it for good tracking.. i thought i have tracking problems in the beginning till i checked in which direction i stood.. tested to darken the room.. perfect.. 
  • jkh0208jkh0208 Posts: 6
    NerveGear
    "Tracking doesn't work for FPS & Archery games"...  I've had no issues playing Serious Sam VR (FPS game) or with archery in Skyrim on the Rift S.
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,328
    Project 2501
    edited May 2019
    jkh0208 said:
    "Tracking doesn't work for FPS & Archery games"...  I've had no issues playing Serious Sam VR (FPS game) or with archery in Skyrim on the Rift S.

    Hello and thanks for your input. With regards to Serious Sam you hold your arms out in front of you so that would work fine with Insight tracking. We've already clarified in this thread that Arcade games work great with Rift S. 

    The more realistic FPS games like Onward/Pavlov/Contractors where you use scopes and bring your hand close to your head are the ones that appear to have trouble with Insight tracking.

    As for Skyrim, my experience was completely different, obviously the bow works, if you launch the game, pull the arrow back and let go it works but what I was explaining was when I tried to aim for long distance HS in games like Apex/Skyrim/In Death etc the bow would freeze when my right hand got close to the side of my head and I wouldn't be able to aim, it would freeze and jerk/stutter making it impossible to play.

    If your just shooting from the hip or perhaps holding the bow in a different way maybe you can get around this but for me I just couldn't enjoy the game as it hurts my arms to hold the bow in an unnatural position.

    My questions for people that claim Archery works fine for them would be:
    • How are you holding the bow? 
    • Have you not noticed jerking/freezing at all? Like ever? Even for split second or how many times during 1 hour of play time?
    • When you play Skyrim and other Archery games how long are you playing for? Because in terms of testing there's a big difference between 30 seconds to 5 minutes and 1-2 hours.
    • Also have you played the same games in VR on old CV1 or Vive? Or is Rift S your first time in VR?
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Rift CV1 & Rift S - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,328
    Project 2501
    kevinw729 said:

    Thanks for this, I'll give this a try tonight, at least then I can say I've eliminated every possible scenario on my end.

    I must admit though I am a little bit weary of messing with the cable on the headset it's self but I'll give it a go and see if I notice any improvements. 
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Rift CV1 & Rift S - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • CrashFuCrashFu Posts: 1,756 Valuable Player
    jkh0208 said:
    "Tracking doesn't work for FPS & Archery games"...  I've had no issues playing Serious Sam VR (FPS game) or with archery in Skyrim on the Rift S.

    Hello and thanks for your input. With regards to Serious Sam you hold your arms out in front of you so that would work fine with Insight tracking. We've already clarified in this thread that Arcade games work great with Rift S. 

    The more realistic FPS games like Onward/Pavlov/Contractors where you use scopes and bring your hand close to your head are the ones that appear to have trouble with Insight tracking.
    You might want to edit the title of the thread, to eliminate this confusion going forwards.  The vast majority of VR FPS are based around 1-handed guns, and anything else that can be held out in front of you or hip-fired (where the lower-corner sensors can see)  work just fine...  your tracking problems have been with two-handed, scoped rifles specifically.

    Maybe change it to "Tracking problems with Realistic Shooting Sims", or something like that.

    SkScotchegg said:

    As for Skyrim, my experience was completely different, obviously the bow works, if you launch the game, pull the arrow back and let go it works but what I was explaining was when I tried to aim for long distance HS in games like Apex/Skyrim/In Death etc the bow would freeze when my right hand got close to the side of my head and I wouldn't be able to aim, it would freeze and jerk/stutter making it impossible to play.

    If your just shooting from the hip or perhaps holding the bow in a different way maybe you can get around this but for me I just couldn't enjoy the game as it hurts my arms to hold the bow in an unnatural position.

    My questions for people that claim Archery works fine for them would be:
    • How are you holding the bow? 
    • Have you not noticed jerking/freezing at all? Like ever? Even for split second or how many times during 1 hour of play time?
    • When you play Skyrim and other Archery games how long are you playing for? Because in terms of testing there's a big difference between 30 seconds to 5 minutes and 1-2 hours.
    • Also have you played the same games in VR on old CV1 or Vive? Or is Rift S your first time in VR?
    1.


    Is there more than one way to hold a bow???

    2.   I had occasional jerking / freezing the first time I played  (just like what you describe when playing Skyrim), but after replugging my headset cable to make sure it was fully connected, and disabling windows power-saving features, and making sure Windows and all my drivers were up-to-date,  those issues went away.

    3.  Usually a level or two of Apex Construct or a couple runs through the first level of In Death   (Anakhim usually gets me. :grimace: )

    4.  I played a ton of In Death on CV1, and the constellation sensors were far from perfect.   Actually, I think they did pretty well when I was only using two (and confined to 180-degree tracking), but when I tried to set up a full 360-degree setup with four of them, the tracking started getting all wonky... probably a shortage of usb bandwidth.  Anything bumping the sensors would also just ruin everything..
    It's hard being the voice of reason when you're surrounded by unreasonable people.
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,328
    Project 2501
    CrashFu said:
    You might want to edit the title of the thread, to eliminate this confusion going forwards.  The vast majority of VR FPS are based around 1-handed guns, and anything else that can be held out in front of you or hip-fired (where the lower-corner sensors can see)  work just fine...  your tracking problems have been with two-handed, scoped rifles specifically.

    Maybe change it to "Tracking problems with Realistic Shooting Sims", or something like that.

    Yeah good point about the title of the thread, I'll edit it to be more specific.
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Rift CV1 & Rift S - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,493 Valuable Player
    I seem to have immensely improved my tracking with the bow in In Death.

    I recently did a fresh install of Windows 10 and set everything up again and this time I plugged my Rift S into the USB 3.1 port on my motherboard. Went into In Death and my tracking was a bit better but still not great. I then went into the Oculus Settings and changed the Room Lighting Frequency from Auto (50Hz) to 60Hz and things are MUCH improved. Still a bit spotty in places at times but it's a lot better. I'm going to try Skyrim VR in a bit.

    Once you get everything right (I think the 3.1 port REALLY helped!) then the tracking is reasonable in In Death. Not perfect but I'm pretty sure that Oculus and especially Carmack will do plenty of work with the predictive algorithms when the Touch controllers are close to the headset during these next few months. Remember, the WVR tracking was a real clusterfuck at times when they first launched and it took them a few months for them to nail everything down.
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  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,916 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    The thread is about First Person Shooters being a problem and not Beat Saber to be fair.
    Someone in this thread said they weren't able to play Beat Saber on expert on the Rift-S. 
    i7 9700k 2080ti   CV1, Rift-S, Index
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,018 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    MowTin said:
    RedRizla said:
    The thread is about First Person Shooters being a problem and not Beat Saber to be fair.
    Someone in this thread said they weren't able to play Beat Saber on expert on the Rift-S. 

    Sorry, my bad. I thought you meant people were able to play Beat Saber, so should have no problem with tracking. Now I see you meant there's some people having a problem with Beat Saber too. 

    I got my response from Oculus about the rifle issue after about 5 days and it was the usual thing about disconnecting the headset and going through the Usb fixes. I thought the whole idea of Rift S was that it would be easy to setup, so I hope there's a better solution then to mess about with Usb settings and disconnecting & reconnecting your DP going forward.

    None of the Oculus Support suggestions fixed the issue though, but I didn't expect it to tbh. I think it's down to there being a dead spot underneath the headset where you would normally have your trigger finger on a riffle. I can see how Archery games might get fix though with the hand being near to the ear when pulling back the Bow string. I would expect the side camera to fix that problem at some point.

    When using a rifle though my hand is much lower down from my ear though, so I'm not sure how that issue is going to be fixed. That's why I suggested it might have been an idea to place a camera on the bottom of the headset like there is on the top. That way I'm sure the headset could have constantly tracked the controller. There might have been reasons why they couldn't put a camera there though, but it's just a thought I had when I saw it didn't work with rifles well.

    I hope eventually inside out tracking can work to track rifles properly, because if it can't I will have to go with VR headsets that offer external sensors and outside in from now on.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,018 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    @Luciferous - Thankfully I won't have to do that if it becomes a mod, because I will have both Rift -S and Valve index shortly. Just waiting to hear about the Valve index more before deciding to purchase. it's definitely going to hurt my wallet all this because I'll soon be upgrading my Graphics card too.
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,379 Valuable Player
    Well I would suggest you reserve it at least. I reserved mine 3 hours after launch. There is no obligation to buy and you don't have to put money down. They send you an email when ready to ship and if you don't respond in 7 days you lose the reserve. So nothing to lose but you may get one earlier if you do decide to go ahead.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,018 Valuable Player
    edited May 2019
    @Luciferous - I already did that, but have to wait until August to get mine. Wish I had done it sooner because I have the money for it now.
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