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Enable CV1 sensors for Rift S tracking boost. (30-40% of my games not viable on Oculus hardware.)

KnightMasonKnightMason Posts: 22
Brain Burst
edited June 2019 in Oculus Rift S and Rift
The Problem:
Every game that has gunplay, archery, or throwing mechanics, "advanced" grabbing mechanics, or otherwise use any form of movement outside of swinging a simple sword, are now a nearly unplayable experience do to the Rift S tracking. That is up to 30 to 40% of the content in the Oculus Store my library.
And many of those games are the most played content. (See example list below.)

I'm finding every FPS shooter, every archery game, every grenade throw, every backward stab with a sword, every dual wielding mage build holding back a horde of enemies both in front and behind me, to be a complete garbage experience now in the Rift S.
And there is no available solution since the CV1 is not available.
All of those developers are going to suffer for it. And the percentage the Oculus store gets will too.

The Solution:
Sell the CV1 sensors and have it work with the Rift S as a "boost" in tracking. You get to sell more hardware. You make more money from those of us who need it for games that require it.

You created the problem yet you don't make money off it.
We should not have to beg for a solution that you already have said can be done in other posts.
Also, maybe notify customers on the store page for those games that it best used with a sensor for the best experience. (As you already do for how intense an experience is and for the play area requirement.)

Examples:
The examples listed below are just a few games available in the Oculus store with no warning about it not working properly on ANY available Oculus hardware since the CV1 was taken down.
  1. Onward: Can't scope, can't hold two handed guns and aim, can't throw grenades properly.
  2. Zero Caliber: Can't scope guns or hold two handed rifles. Period.
  3. Echo Arena: Can't rotate hand behind you for movement, hold, and dodging mechanics.
  4. Lone Echo: Can't grab behind you for basic movement and hold positions.
  5. ANY game with archery & slingshot mechanics: Too many to list. You now have to draw your arrow with "hipfire" and hope for the best.
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Comments

  • jayhawkjayhawk Posts: 825
    3Jane
    edited June 2019
    How 'bout just fix it, especially for those who don't have CV1 sensors, nor should anyone be required to buy sensors for a full experience.
  • KnightMasonKnightMason Posts: 22
    Brain Burst
    edited June 2019
    jayhawk said:
    How 'bout just fix it, especially for those who don't have CV1 sensors, nor should anyone be required to buy sensors for a full experience.
    Well I posted a reply to you but they removed it apparently. Or it bugged.

    Basically the firmware can only fix so much. Cameras can't see through hands or arms. And locking hands to a position, like to the face in archery for example, would still take away from fine control that applies to aiming.
    When a single cheap sensor can fix it.
    The DK2 used one sensor for tracking and it worked great.

    Edit: I agree it's unfortunate. But the company is about making money. They will only fix it be more incentivised to fix it, if they can make money off the problem. We already have to buy or make our own audio solution to match that of the CV1. For $399 I'm not complaining about that.
    I just want it to work for games I already paid for. Because everything else about the Rift S is fantastic. (Except the minor bugs they are working on now like controllers not turning off and flashes of static.)
  • GummyBerryJoosGummyBerryJoos Posts: 7
    NerveGear
    Totally agree. It's shameful that optional sensors wasn't a thing at launch. They knew the limitations of the tracking. I would have preferred honesty about those limitations and to be given an option to overcome those limitations
  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,762 Volunteer Moderator
    1. Lone Echo: Can't grab behind you for basic movement and hold positions.
    Turning on the headlight is very difficult, since you need to press a button on the side of your head, where the controllers can't track.

    jayhawk said:
    How 'bout just fix it, especially for those who don't have CV1 sensors, nor should anyone be required to buy sensors for a full experience.
    It's a fundamental flaw of head mounted camera inside out tracking of hand controllers. The fix is to not do that and use something superior like the CV1 had (it might not be as convenient for some people, but it has far fewer problems).


    One complication: there's no IR lights on the Rift-S, so CV1 sensors can't physically track it. The Touch controllers can probably be tracked (depends on things like IR frequency).
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  • parsecnparsecn Posts: 131
    Art3mis

    Tracking fidelity is the #1 most important feature to me in the VR experience, where I never even considered Rift-S due to the reduction in (tracking) quality. I've followed the tracking debacle quite closely, from early testers and influencers, etc. who were effectively towing the line because they harbor the "big picture" want of VR being widely adopted and successful, with Oculus' new mantra of trade-offs.


    The shift to inside out to satiate the lowest common denominator has bummed and soured me to Oculus, completely.


    A user in the forum thread "Rift S - Please read before you buy - Tracking problems with realistic FPS sims & Archery" tweeted both Nate Mitchell and John Carmack asking for them to enable external tracking to support Rift-S/ resolve poor tracking etc.


    Carmack replied, "Integrating external camera tracking for Rift S controllers would be a *LOT* of work, and it wouldn't function as well as you expect, because the ring orientation is biased towards the headset instead of the Touch orientation. Better to hope for inside out tracking improvements."


    To me, it reads like external ain't gonna happen.

     


  • parsecnparsecn Posts: 131
    Art3mis

    Tracking fidelity is the #1 most important feature to me in the VR experience, where I never even considered Rift-S due to the reduction in (tracking) quality. I've followed the tracking debacle quite closely, from early testers and influencers, etc. who were effectively towing the line because they harbor the "big picture" want of VR being widely adopted and successful, with Oculus' new mantra of trade-offs.


    The shift to inside out to satiate the lowest common denominator has bummed and soured me to Oculus, completely.


    A user in the thread https://forums.oculusvr.com/community/discussion/75817/rift-s-please-read-before-you-buy-tracking-problems-with-realistic-fps-sims-archery/p1  tweeted both Nate Mitchell and John Carmack asking for them to enable external tracking to support Rift-S/ resolve poor tracking etc.


    Carmack replied, "Integrating external camera tracking for Rift S controllers would be a *LOT* of work, and it wouldn't function as well as you expect, because the ring orientation is biased towards the headset instead of the Touch orientation. Better to hope for inside out tracking improvements."


    To me, it reads like external ain't gonna happen.

     


  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 2,262
    Wintermute
    edited June 2019
    I just think these VR developers are taking the wrong directions and not working at all together. There should be a brilliant product that does what we want and affordable but it hasn't appeared. Instead they dance around existing tech and miss bits off and create other limitations. Seriously Carmack mate, you got your design model wrong but are using a scheme in Business which is stretching out development so it takes longer. It's so obvious and why Lenovo have been handed it. 
    A huge group of us are very worried about the future of PC VR in doing this. Sure enough there are GPU limitations coming very soon and AMD will soon blow away Intel again and crash the market of Nvidia card manufacturing. We really have not had new tech in VR. This should not be so hard to get right by now with a headset plus body tracking all without room sensors nor needing any visible light (use IR instead) and finally become WIRELESS!!! Wifi 6 is already here ffs :o
  • donnyjoedonnyjoe Posts: 20
    Brain Burst
    Improvements for controller positional estimation in the Rift software should come, but developers could also do some work to mitigate these issues, and surely will. (Look at what they're doing in Iron Man VR on PSVR.) I get where you're coming from but a lot of these issues are being greatly exaggerated (especially your "30-40%" figure, I'm betting) and judging the merits of new hardware based on how it handles old titles that haven't even had a chance to get updated to adapt isn't really fair.
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,330
    Project 2501
    edited June 2019
    Over the past month that this has been going on I just think more and more that they should have done two two things:

    They should still sell CV1, why they stopped selling CV1 is beyond me, especially when they say Rift S is not an upgrade for CV1 owners.

    And secondly they should patch the software to allow us to use Constellation tracking. - They first said "We could enable this later" and then I messed CEO of Oculus on Twitter and they basically said "It would be a lot of hard work to enable Constellation tracking in the software".

    It really annoys me that they don't listen to us - and what kind of a response is that? Do any of us really care how much work it takes for them to patch Constellation tracking into Rift S software? It's their problem that they created.

    Quite annoying.

    And I agree with OP. We all spent all this money buying over 100 games in our VR library and then you buy Rift S and try to play all those games again and 90% of the games have problems with the tracking and most are just unplayable.

    Like you can play Arizona Sunshine as long as you only use 1 handed weapons. You can play In Death as long as you don't mind not been able to shoot properly with a bow and can't aim correctly...this is just ridiculous.

    Oculus better make this upto us with CV2!!

    CV2 needs to have increased FOV, increased resolution, built in audio and Constellation tracking...And then all is forgiven! But until that moment - They will feel my Wrath! Or perhaps not...since they don't read the forums and don't seem to care what we say lol.  :p

    EDIT: To OP I did make a thread about this situation weeks ago where we discussed all these issues:

    https://forums.oculusvr.com/community/discussion/75817/rift-s-please-read-before-you-buy-tracking-problems-with-realistic-fps-sims-archery#latest
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  • KnightMasonKnightMason Posts: 22
    Brain Burst
    edited June 2019
    donnyjoe said:
    Improvements for controller positional estimation in the Rift software should come, but developers could also do some work to mitigate these issues, and surely will. (Look at what they're doing in Iron Man VR on PSVR.) I get where you're coming from but a lot of these issues are being greatly exaggerated (especially your "30-40%" figure, I'm betting) and judging the merits of new hardware based on how it handles old titles that haven't even had a chance to get updated to adapt isn't really fair.
    What I should have said is 30% to 40% of my library.
    And some of the rifle handling issues have been hotfixed by the game developers. So now we have gimmicky snap positions for weapons. Talk about immersion breaking.

    I'm sure as less archery and FPS games are put out there for Oculus, given recent situations going on, then the percentage of games in the store that function correctly will rise. They could remove all games that don't work well and say 100% of all their content now functions. Seems to be their approach in curating other developers lately. Percentages are all relative in that respect.

    Not to add to the issues but we also can't rack slides on pistols due to the inverted rings being in the way. Not without causing real damage to the touch controllers.
    And I'm not mentioning anything outside the oculus store like Skyrim VR or Fallout. Because that isn't in their wheelhouse in the first place.

    I have since paid out of pocket to get my CV1 back. If they fix the Rift S maybe I'll buy another. But nearly a month later and watching their other drama unfold, it doesn't look like that will happen unfortunately.
    And that's a shame. I've been a fan of their HMD since the beginning.
  • GummyBerryJoosGummyBerryJoos Posts: 7
    NerveGear
    I requested a refund today. The sniper rifle in Arizona Sunshine was the last straw. Still waiting to hear back...
  • ShocksVRShocksVR Posts: 560
    Neo
    I've found grenade throwing to be much better on the S than my 3 sensor CV1.
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  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,762 Volunteer Moderator
    And secondly they should patch the software to allow us to use Constellation tracking. - They first said "We could enable this later" and then I messed CEO of Oculus on Twitter and they basically said "It would be a lot of hard work to enable Constellation tracking in the software".

    It really annoys me that they don't listen to us - and what kind of a response is that? Do any of us really care how much work it takes for them to patch Constellation tracking into Rift S software? It's their problem that they created.
    I can imagine a few scenarios where mixing insight and constellation would be hard.
    1 - the IR frequency might not match. Interestingly, if you have a Rift-S on and you switch to passthrough, you can see old touch LEDs glowing brightly, but new touch LEDs aren't visible. That sounds like the opposite of what should happen, but something is odd there.
    2 - wireless might be different. The CV1 uses a modified BLE connection, running at a non standard frequency (which is why bluetooth dongles can't see any of the devices). It uses this to communicate with the touch controllers, and it also uses it to sync the cameras. The lights flash, the cameras must be in sync otherwise it won't work. If they changed the wireless for Rift-S, then that's why it can't pair with the Remote and why they aren't supporting old Touch or sensors. The remote is such a simple device with no tracking, just 9 buttons, it would be easy to continue supporting in both headsets if the wireless system was unchanged.

    But if neither of those is true, then it might be possible. They haven't provided any real explanation on why they won't. "It's hard" is too vague.

    I don't have my hopes up for ever seeing constellation / insight fusion though. :(

    (I almost went back to my CV1 yesterday, the panel res of the Rift-S is no longer outweighing the tracking flaws for me. Even in a game like ETS2 where there's no hand tracking, occasionally the Rift-S will lose all position tracking and turn into a 3DOF DK1/Go, so I can't lean around in the cabin until I unplug/replug the usb cable)
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  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 2,262
    Wintermute
    edited June 2019
    This should be quite easy to fix. What would sensors not track if too close? I'd say because they are too bright for it as it should have totally no problem with distance. So it is too big a target on the camera to tell it's position. So to fix this it either needs the power in in the Touch reduced overall OR made to be dynamic (less power when close to headset).

    They got it wrong by not using any illumination from the headset for IR. This is all it needs and not bad Room Lighting nor daylight.
  • GummyBerryJoosGummyBerryJoos Posts: 7
    NerveGear
    Oculus has just informed me that since I am past 30 days they will not accept a refund for the the product..... despite the issues I'm having
  • GummyBerryJoosGummyBerryJoos Posts: 7
    NerveGear
    Wondering...would anyone be interested in a video of me going apeshit with a sledge hammer on this Rift S? Since I can't get a refund, maybe I can raise the $ for a Vive THAT way....
  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 2,262
    Wintermute
    You knew that. That's the same for whoever you buy from. I could just as easily buy it again but without bringing out add-on headphones and fixing close to head tracking...it's a no for now...then by the end of year there will be more choices that are better.
  • GummyBerryJoosGummyBerryJoos Posts: 7
    NerveGear
    MAC_MAN86 said:
    You knew that. That's the same for whoever you buy from. I could just as easily buy it again but without bringing out add-on headphones and fixing close to head tracking...it's a no for now...then by the end of year there will be more choices that are better.
    No, that's not generally true for a FAULTY product. It did not work as advertised. Last time I checked that's called faulty. Not to mention the fact that I started talking refund almost a week ago within my 30-day period.... But it took Oculus 5 days to get back to me....
  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 2,262
    Wintermute
    edited June 2019
    What you get is a replacement or are you insinuating they are a mafia (*hehe)
  • GummyBerryJoosGummyBerryJoos Posts: 7
    NerveGear
    edited June 2019
    To be perfectly honest I'm willing to try a replacement if that's what they want to do first.... But if the tracking is still crap.... Then I think they owe the consumers something... Because this was touted as a replacement for traditional tracking.... The limitations that were obviously known to the company were not made known to the consumer... That's a problem.
  • MAC_MAN86MAC_MAN86 Posts: 2,262
    Wintermute
    Yes I'm not impressed that close to head is not polished but you can only keep hoping yet they still did not bother adding Strafe in Home after 2yrs of requests if that's anything to go by. Whilst games are changing their boxes for aimlocks to counter this then let's assume it won't get a fix. Oculus already have CV2 being worked on.
  • dburnedburne Posts: 4,031 Valuable Player
    Downside of inside-out tracking.
    Perhaps they will be able to improve some in software updates, hard to say.
    Don

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  • KnightMasonKnightMason Posts: 22
    Brain Burst
    edited June 2019
    MAC_MAN86 said:
    You knew that. That's the same for whoever you buy from. I could just as easily buy it again but without bringing out add-on headphones and fixing close to head tracking...it's a no for now...then by the end of year there will be more choices that are better.
    No, that's not generally true for a FAULTY product. It did not work as advertised. Last time I checked that's called faulty. Not to mention the fact that I started talking refund almost a week ago within my 30-day period.... But it took Oculus 5 days to get back to me....
    I don't know if tracking issues will fall under the warranty. It's possible. There are ways you can find out regardless if they accept it or not, but that goes way off topic.

    You could sell it for $50 to $100 off and cut your loss that way.
    And if you are not worried about the warranty anymore then I would do something creative first before you go smashing it. Like a video tear down if others need to take it apart to fix something after the warranty expires.
    Or some crazy mods that nobody else would dare try yet.
    Milk it for views first then smash it for more later.


    My unit also had white flashes every minute or two since day one. So it was technically faulty from the start. But I was hoping it was software related. Their updates never fixed it for me though. And I was within the refund window. Had I not been I would have tried the above myself for fun.


    Still, after all this, I would probably buy another Rift S if they fixed all these problems and get their PR together.
    Because, for the price, it's still the best screen experiences out there for driving, flight, space sims. And other detailed content.

    I paid more for my Wacom pen tablet. My monitor was about the same price. And even my TV in my living room costs more with 7 surround sound speakers I had to run wires to. All so I could "feel the action". That was closer to $1500.
    It's still crazy to me that a VR set is this cheap now.
  • Hicks613Hicks613 Posts: 321
    Nexus 6

    I have 2 more weeks to return my Rift S.  I'm going for it.  THey can have my used RIft S back.

    I cant' play FPS shooters, can't scope. Can't play virtual pool.  Can't play Lone Echo properly (as good as it looks on those long overdue panels)


    I'm investing slowly in SteamVR gear.  Something I don't want to do.  I don't want to leave Oculus Home.


    But there are no options.  No CV2 and no alternatives.  There is only the RIft S, with its 90 degree FOV and 80 field of tracking.

  • parsecnparsecn Posts: 131
    Art3mis
    @GummyBerryJoosJust sell it and move on - take the loss. 

    If you are inclined to do the smash (which if done well with a large amount of views and re-shares surfacing to UploadVR, etc.) would be an FU to Oculus execs (kinda tickles me) who green lighted the changes to appeal to commoners, however @KnightMasonhas a good point, do a tear-down, etc. first, assuming you have experience with electronics - things like phone repair, etc. 

    If I were in your shoes, I would remove one or more of the hmd cameras and relocate to outside the hmd - you'd need to solder a suitable extension. The cameras are likely attached via a ribbon cable, so you'd need to either decouple the ribbon assembly from board and extend from board to ribbon coupler or maybe build something (an extension etc.) working from pins should they be accessible. It would be ugly, the extension would be dangling from the face of HMD and of course, you wouldn't be able to play anything but you'd certainly be able to test external tracking, in a manner of speaking.

    I'm sure it would be awful overall, as Carmack has stated, "because the ring orientation is biased towards the headset instead of the Touch orientation" however, you would at least get some data from it - you could have a camera say 1m from HMD directly to the right of you (facing play area) and try the controller directly to face of HMD to see if tracks correctly. You can try using the watch in Arizona sunshine, try pulling a bow back properly in In Death, try scoping a rifle. Run a series of tests, and you'll have a hell of a "more widely viewed and subscribed" video over a simple smash clip, which any kid can do and often just sends a message of frustration or arrogance. 

    I've often thought if an after-market external tracked solution were presented by Oculus, it would utilise the same camera(s) in the Rift-S HMD, on stands (or sold with wall mounts) similar to constellation. Set of 2 cameras with extension for $159 or something. They'd have to write the software to support, and more importantly, own that the move to inside-out was more than a trade-off in tracking fidelity for ease of use, that it's somewhere between a solid step backward and complete failure in current iteration. 
  • parsecnparsecn Posts: 131
    Art3mis
    I shouldn't say, "complete failure" in current iteration but failure nonetheless. Inside-out does work to satisfaction with a selection titles. 
  • Odori1Odori1 Posts: 4
    NerveGear
    Completely agree. This is really disappointing. Rift S is my first VR HMD and I think I might return it because of this.
  • sford52sford52 Posts: 180
    Art3mis
    kojack said:
    1. Lone Echo: Can't grab behind you for basic movement and hold positions.
    Turning on the headlight is very difficult, since you need to press a button on the side of your head, where the controllers can't track.

    jayhawk said:
    How 'bout just fix it, especially for those who don't have CV1 sensors, nor should anyone be required to buy sensors for a full experience.
    It's a fundamental flaw of head mounted camera inside out tracking of hand controllers. The fix is to not do that and use something superior like the CV1 had (it might not be as convenient for some people, but it has far fewer problems).


    One complication: there's no IR lights on the Rift-S, so CV1 sensors can't physically track it. The Touch controllers can probably be tracked (depends on things like IR frequency).
    Excellent post - clear and to the point. I had once considered trying the Rift-S (maybe buy in Nov/Dec after the initial bugs were worked through) but I think I'll just keep what I have (CV1 and 2 sensors). It is set up, works well, and does what I need.  Thanks @kojack
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  • Protocol7Protocol7 Posts: 333
    Trinity
    There are numerous reports on Reddit that tracking for Rift S users has been significantly improved in the 1.39 PTC update. Has anyone here noticed an improvement?
  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,762 Volunteer Moderator
    Protocol7 said:
    There are numerous reports on Reddit that tracking for Rift S users has been significantly improved in the 1.39 PTC update. Has anyone here noticed an improvement?
    It did seem a lot better in oculus home holding a controller near my head. I'll have to give Lone Echo a try.
    Using the bow and arrow in home still sucked though.

    I started Arktika 1, got to the robot, then all tracking died. Not just dropping back to 3DOF like the Rift-S has been doing for me, but a message comes up saying the headset can't be tracked and nothing works (no buttons, no rotations or head or hands), but it still renders. That's new (and worse than usual). Might just need a reboot after the update.
    (I'm cursed, I've never made it past the first robot in Arktika 1. Something always goes wrong, using the game crashing or the game logic failing so the robot is invulnerable. Or both times I've tried it with a Rift-S I've lost tracking in some way)


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