The Index thread (please keep to subject) - Page 17 — Oculus
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The Index thread (please keep to subject)

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  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,244 Volunteer Moderator
    Maybe they got the COD deal I want, ahh now that would be amazing, I'd play it in a VR goldfish bowl dammit !!!!
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,244 Volunteer Moderator
    Ooohhh this is an interesting snippet from that article = Respawn said when it announced the VR title it doesn't take place in that universe. Instead, it'll supposedly place you in the role of a soldier in a realistic combat scenario
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,244 Volunteer Moderator
    Sorry all, warned myself again, back on topic...those knuckles hmm?
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,546 Valuable Player
    Its like watching Jekyll and Hyde as @Techy11 has to chastise himself  B)
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  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,244 Volunteer Moderator
    Oi !!!! You nicked one of my ones ÷ @Techy111
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,893 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    I'm waiting till October before I decide what to do. I want to hear what Oculus has to say and wait to see if they are going to cater for people with higher end graphics cards. If they had just stuck a higher resolution display in the Rift S and called it a Rift S pro, then I would have purchased it. I have a Geforce 2080ti now and I don't want the low resolution of the Rift S when my card is capable of higher resolutions. It's like me purchasing a 1080p monitor for my Geforce 2080ti instead of the 4k television I just purchased for it.
    It can't be that hard to stick a higher resolution display in a Rift S and give people with better graphics cards an incentive to get something called a Rift S pro. I understand they want to get more people into VR, but don't alienate gamers who have top of the range computers & graphics cards. These people spend money to get the best experience there is out there and it's in Oculus interest to give them something. By all means cater for the low to mid range computers to get people into VR, but for the love of god give something to those with a higher end computer.
    Even HP with it's bad tracking but higher resolution display had a fair few people in here looking at it. I still intend getting one just because there's nothing out there with this resolution. Oculus don't even need to bump the resolution up as far as the HP Reverb, but for me it needs to be much higher then it is on Rift S now that I have a geforce 2080ti.

    So not as high as the Reverb (2160p) and higher than the Rift S (1440p) would seem to imply that you want a 1600p headset. There really isn't a big difference between 1440p and 1600p tbh.

    I agree that a 1600p headset would have been better but that also means that people would need a more powerful GPU to run the thing. Now YOU may have a powerful 2080Ti but you are in the minority.

    Oculus have released a 1440p headset at 80Hz for the good of VR. Yes, I think we all agree that Oculus should have aimed higher but the Rift S is exactly what is needed right now. A headset with a decent resolution for under 400 quid/dollars.

    If you're going to criticise ANYONE with regards to their spec choices you should be criticising Valve for releasing a 1600p headset that's 2.3 times more expensive than a 1440p headset. For that sort of price I'd expect a 2160p headset at least with a Pimax sized FOV.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,403 Valuable Player
    edited July 6
    @snowdog - There are a fair few people in this forum alone that have a 2080ti and there's plenty of other people out there using a 2080ti. If we are taking about getting millions into VR, (Oculus words not mine) then you have to cater for everyone. That includes catering for people with highend graphics cards and also people with larger ipd's. I very much doubt I will purchase a Rift S when I have a graphics card capable of much higher resolutions. I'll just look at HTC Cosmos and the HP Reverb, if Oculus don't offer anything come September.
    I'm sure if you had a computer that was capable of running a much higher resolution VR headset, then you to would be reluctant to look at the Rift S, which is the lowest resolution VR headset apart from CV1. You say there isn't a difference in a small bump in resolution and yet everyone says how much of a difference the Rift S has made compared to the CV1. All the reviews I've read say the Valve index brings better clarity and sharpness then what the Rift S offers. I've seen people mention glare in the Valve index, which is something I don't like and is the reason I won't purchase it at that price. I'm sure the Valve index looks better then Rift S does though having read many reviews. I'm not sure if @pyroth309 has tried the Rift S to comment on whether that is true or not, but from what I've read I believe it to be a step up from Rift S regarding the display.
    edit: I Just want to make it clear that I said it should be a Rift S Pro, and that Oculus obviously needs to keep Rift S for the low to mid range computers. I really can't see the problem with giving people with higher end computers a better display. Valve and HTC are doing it, but usually at a much higher cost. These Lcd's are not expensive and Oculus could sweep the competition aside if they just gave us this option at a lower cost. I'm sure they could do this if they wanted to, but right now they are only catering for the low to mid range computers.
    Lets be honest even a geforce 1080 is capable of higher resolution then what Rift S offers as @pyroth309 found out with his Vavle index. He owns a geforce 1080 and could use the Valve index at a higher resolution, so geforce 1080 as well as 1080ti users would benefit from a higher resolution display too.





  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 395
    Trinity
    snowdog said:
    If you're going to criticise ANYONE with regards to their spec choices you should be criticising Valve for releasing a 1600p headset that's 2.3 times more expensive than a 1440p headset. For that sort of price I'd expect a 2160p headset at least with a Pimax sized FOV.

    The Index was Valve's response to the Vive Pro...better specs, while being $400 USD cheaper for the bundle, or $300 USD cheaper just for the headset. $1000 USD is right on par for what the parts are.
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    edited July 7
    RedRizla said:

    Lets be honest even a geforce 1080 is capable of higher resolution then what Rift S offers as @pyroth309 found out with his Vavle index. He owns a geforce 1080 and could use the Valve index at a higher resolution, so geforce 1080 as well as 1080ti users would benefit from a higher resolution display too.


    Yea, the GTX 1080 is enough to run the Index in most games at 100% at 80hz which is 2016x2240 resolution. Beyond 80 hz though the pain starts lol and you'll have to live in Motion Smoothing or come down on SS. At 144hz I have to drop beat saber, which is far from graphic intensive, down to like 66% which is 1636x1820 to not run into Motion Smoothing. Norm from tested said it best, it's like being on caffeine. Less blur on the sabers, less blur on the fast moving boxes and I can play much faster than I could on any previous VR system I have tried. I've set a few personal bests in Beat saber in the time I was in there due to a combo of the 144hz and the tracking, several top 50 results on Steam, but I haven't been hitting it hard. Trade off of playing at 144hz at 66% is it doesn't look as clear. 

    Also, to chime in on the recent discussion, I don't think any VR company is going to cater heavily to 2080TI owners or they'd never make any money. When you get to the edges of the enthusiast curve, you find that you're in a tiny minority. The main benefit is just the extra frames and performance. GTX 1080's are fairly common at this point though.  

     Still jumping around games and seeing what works well and what doesn't. I'm still planning on a Super 2080 build this month with a new Ryzen cpu so I'm looking forward to pushing the Index a bit harder on the 144hz side.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,893 Valuable Player
    Spuzzum said:
    snowdog said:
    If you're going to criticise ANYONE with regards to their spec choices you should be criticising Valve for releasing a 1600p headset that's 2.3 times more expensive than a 1440p headset. For that sort of price I'd expect a 2160p headset at least with a Pimax sized FOV.

    The Index was Valve's response to the Vive Pro...better specs, while being $400 USD cheaper for the bundle, or $300 USD cheaper just for the headset. $1000 USD is right on par for what the parts are.

    $999 isn't on par for what the parts are. At all. Neither is the Vive Pro. Valve and HTC are price gouging.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,828 Valuable Player
    edited July 7
    This review was great - or the reviewer's experience seems to nearly completely match my impressions from reading many reviews and opinions:


    Also the reviewer is using glasses nearly completely the same way as I am. I too have wider (smarter) glasses I use in public, and like the reviewer I have special-made ultra-narrow and thin (high-index) glasses I use for VR. Now when using glasses inside VR, suddenly as a Rift user you're using 2 lenses, and using Valve Index your not using 2 lenses but 3 lenses - because glasses provide extra lenses. Note how the reviewer really dislikes the blacks, and that's my main worry too going from OLED to LCD, but note that the reviewer did mention the glare - at all. Coming from CV1 I know that god rays increase when you push the lenses close to your face, and the reviewer didn't dial in the lenses much due to the glasses, which may have limited the glare. 
    Now take a look at the reviewer - see how small his eyes are due to the glasses - he's clearly in need (or is using) high-index lenses, like:

    "How High-Index Lenses Differ From Regular Lenses

    Eyeglass lenses correct refractive errors by bending (refracting) light as it passes through the lens. The amount of light-bending ability (lens power) that's needed to provide good vision is indicated on the eyeglass prescription provided by your eye doctor."

    https://www.allaboutvision.com/lenses/highindx.htm

    It's just a theory, but maybe using high-index lenses in the Valve Index (that's a lot of index words, lol) may have some impact on the light filtering and bending - and thereby reduce the glare - or maybe not dialing in the Index lenses may reduce the glare. Since the reviewer seems very picky about things, not describing the glare at all was a small mystery to me - he does complain (a lot) about the black levels, the thumbstick and the lack of controller support, so clearly he's not trying to be kind to Valve by not criticizing the Index. 

    Some also speculate that some Index HMDs due to a hardware issue display more glare than other - but until two Index HMDs can be compared to test that theory the evidence is limited. 

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,403 Valuable Player
    edited July 7
    @snowdog - The valve index headset is £459 compared to Rift S £399. You don't get inside out tracking or controllers, but for that £459 you get two higher resolution displays, an ipd adjuster and some great audio. The valve headset also looks to have a better build quality, so for £59 more the headset itself it isn't a bad price I reckon. And especially for those who already have the light houses from owning a Vive.
    I'm not bothered about the things like finger tracking on the Valve controllers, so I would have been happy if they had just done something like the cheap Rift controllers. It seems some people are willing to pay a high price for the controllers though. Just like I'm willing to pay a higher price for better resolution displays. 
    @pyroth309 - Changing out displays on a Rift -S and calling it a Rift -S Pro isn't a hard thing for Oculus to do. Lcd's are cheap and like I said there's plenty of 1080ti owners out there. There's people using the HP Reverb using a 1080ti and geforce 2080 and that's got twice the resolution of a Rift S. If you want millions of people in VR you have to cater for everyone is how I see it.
    I'll wait to see what Oculus says in September before I decide on my next headset.
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,546 Valuable Player
    edited July 7
    Spuzzum said:
    .....
    The Index was Valve's response to the Vive Pro...better specs, while being $400 USD cheaper for the bundle, or $300 USD cheaper just for the headset. $1000 USD is right on par for what the parts are.

    Sadly we have never had an official "positioning statement" from Valve on what the Valve Index is a "response" too. The company has stayed quite tight-lipped over what they envisaged for the hardware. Most of what we have learned followed the leak of images and comments from the peripheral VR executive departures, a few months back, who spoke off the record.

    We have to deduce much, and that is open to interpretation, and some vested speculation. For example, some claim the HTC > Valve relationship is on the rocks, others that the Index is a answer to the Vive Pro issues, and finally that Valve wants to get the VR scene back on track focusing on high-end rather than a race to the bottom with cheap mass-market units. 

    I think its clear from the releasing of the SDK for the hardware (hopefully those files are back online?) that the hobby and innovator element of Index is much greater than with any other hardware since DK2. And with the end of year planned announcement on the wireless kit, I hope to see much more innovation in content creation on the level of 'Apeture Hand Lab'. imho
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,893 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    @snowdog - The valve index headset is £459 compared to Rift S £399. You don't get inside out tracking or controllers, but for that £459 you get two higher resolution displays, an ipd adjuster and some great audio. The valve headset also looks to have a better build quality, so for £59 more the headset itself it isn't a bad price I reckon. And especially for those who already have the light houses from owning a Vive.
    I'm not bothered about the things like finger tracking on the Valve controllers, so I would have been happy if they had just done something like the cheap Rift controllers. It seems some people are willing to pay a high price for the controllers though. Just like I'm willing to pay a higher price for better resolution displays. 
    @pyroth309 - Changing out displays on a Rift -S and calling it a Rift -S Pro isn't a hard thing for Oculus to do. Lcd's are cheap and like I said there's plenty of 1080ti owners out there. There's people using the HP Reverb using a 1080ti and geforce 2080 and that's got twice the resolution of a Rift S. If you want millions of people in VR you have to cater for everyone is how I see it.
    I'll wait to see what Oculus says in September before I decide on my next headset.

    That's why I mentioned the $999 full bundle price and not the price of the headset. The price gouging is done by way of the price of the base stations and controllers.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • jabjab Posts: 185
    Art3mis
    RedRizla said:
    @snowdog - The valve index headset is £459 compared to Rift S £399. You don't get inside out tracking or controllers, but for that £459 you get two higher resolution displays, an ipd adjuster and some great audio. The valve headset also looks to have a better build quality, so for £59 more the headset itself it isn't a bad price I reckon. And especially for those who already have the light houses from owning a Vive.
    And let's not forget about comfort. I can't speak for the Rift-S since I don't have one, but the Quest in it's original state is pretty much unusable for me. 10 minutes in and I have intense pains at the back of my head, no mater how I try to adjust the head strap. And if I somehow ignore that, then shortly after I also get pains at my forehead because of the weight distribution.

    So the actual cost for a long time usable Quest looks something like this.
    - Quest (128GB *) $499
    - Vive Deluxe Audio Strap $120
    - VRCover Oculus Quest Foam & Interface Basic Set $29

    Total $648

    *)  The 64GB (45-50GB available) version is going to be a major limitation for installing larger games in the long run.
  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 395
    Trinity
    edited July 7
    snowdog said:
    Spuzzum said:
    snowdog said:
    If you're going to criticise ANYONE with regards to their spec choices you should be criticising Valve for releasing a 1600p headset that's 2.3 times more expensive than a 1440p headset. For that sort of price I'd expect a 2160p headset at least with a Pimax sized FOV.

    The Index was Valve's response to the Vive Pro...better specs, while being $400 USD cheaper for the bundle, or $300 USD cheaper just for the headset. $1000 USD is right on par for what the parts are.

    $999 isn't on par for what the parts are. At all. Neither is the Vive Pro. Valve and HTC are price gouging.
    I guess we have a difference in opinion then. Compared to everything else out there, the parts used add up to the $1000 price tag.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,893 Valuable Player
    Spuzzum said:
    snowdog said:
    Spuzzum said:
    snowdog said:
    If you're going to criticise ANYONE with regards to their spec choices you should be criticising Valve for releasing a 1600p headset that's 2.3 times more expensive than a 1440p headset. For that sort of price I'd expect a 2160p headset at least with a Pimax sized FOV.

    The Index was Valve's response to the Vive Pro...better specs, while being $400 USD cheaper for the bundle, or $300 USD cheaper just for the headset. $1000 USD is right on par for what the parts are.

    $999 isn't on par for what the parts are. At all. Neither is the Vive Pro. Valve and HTC are price gouging.
    I guess we have a difference in opinion then. Compared to everything else out there, the parts used add up to the $1000 price tag.

    Only because HTC are taking the piss with their pricing as much as Valve are. The base stations is the main piss take but the controllers aren't at a decent price either. The parts used only add up to $1000 if you're okay with price gouging. The 2.0 base stations are cheaper to manufacture than the 1.0 base stations but Valve are selling them for MORE than HTC are selling the 1.0 base stations for. It's been widely publicised that Valve are charging OEMs $60 plus shipping for 2.0 base stations. Which points to them costing LESS than $60 to make, because Valve love profits.

    Now I don't have a problem with companies making profits, after all Oculus are charging $399/£399 for the Rift S, so they're probably making around a hundred notes profit on each headset sold. What I DO have a problem with though is blatant price gouging. Valve could have quite easily had the full bundle for a couple of hundred quid/dollars cheaper and STILL made a decent profit on each unit sold.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 395
    Trinity
    edited July 7
    snowdog said:
    Spuzzum said:
    snowdog said:
    Spuzzum said:
    snowdog said:
    If you're going to criticise ANYONE with regards to their spec choices you should be criticising Valve for releasing a 1600p headset that's 2.3 times more expensive than a 1440p headset. For that sort of price I'd expect a 2160p headset at least with a Pimax sized FOV.

    The Index was Valve's response to the Vive Pro...better specs, while being $400 USD cheaper for the bundle, or $300 USD cheaper just for the headset. $1000 USD is right on par for what the parts are.

    $999 isn't on par for what the parts are. At all. Neither is the Vive Pro. Valve and HTC are price gouging.
    I guess we have a difference in opinion then. Compared to everything else out there, the parts used add up to the $1000 price tag.

    Only because HTC are taking the piss with their pricing as much as Valve are. The base stations is the main piss take but the controllers aren't at a decent price either. The parts used only add up to $1000 if you're okay with price gouging. The 2.0 base stations are cheaper to manufacture than the 1.0 base stations but Valve are selling them for MORE than HTC are selling the 1.0 base stations for. It's been widely publicised that Valve are charging OEMs $60 plus shipping for 2.0 base stations. Which points to them costing LESS than $60 to make, because Valve love profits.

    Now I don't have a problem with companies making profits, after all Oculus are charging $399/£399 for the Rift S, so they're probably making around a hundred notes profit on each headset sold. What I DO have a problem with though is blatant price gouging. Valve could have quite easily had the full bundle for a couple of hundred quid/dollars cheaper and STILL made a decent profit on each unit sold.

    Sorry...I should have said the price of the parts, and the cost of manufacturing. Nobody sells for the sam price as the BOM...you also have rent, electricity, and wages. You also have to make a profit...it's called business. But...compared to what's out there...parts wise...$1,000 for what the Index is on par with today's market. If you don't agree...oh well. Life goes on.

    Valve said themselves...HTC has that 10% markup, though I think it's much higher. That's why Valve got into the Index in the first place.


    edit: Also, not sure what HTC or Oculus does when it comes to shipping, but Valve's $1000 price tag includes the cost of shipping.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,252 Valuable Player
    edited July 7
    kevinw729 said:
    Spuzzum said:
    .....
    The Index was Valve's response to the Vive Pro...better specs, while being $400 USD cheaper for the bundle, or $300 USD cheaper just for the headset. $1000 USD is right on par for what the parts are.

    Sadly we have never had an official "positioning statement" from Valve on what the Valve Index is a "response" too.

    That's not a "sad" thing, that's a "smart" thing. Any organization that is lead by people with any sort of business sense would not allow themselves to develop entire product lines "in a response to" anything at all. Because that's a good way to become a follower instead of a leader. Once a company starts strategizing around "responses" they make themselves vulnerable to all of their competitors and artificial market forces.

    Similar to how someone can be tricked in to investing money in a company that doesn't really exist.
    Bre-X Minerals, 1997
    This Canadian company was involved in one of the largest stock swindles in history. Its Indonesian gold property, which was reported to contain more than 200 million ounces, was said to be the richest gold mine, ever. The stock price for Bre-X skyrocketed to a high of $280 (split adjusted), making millionaires out of ordinary people overnight. At its peak, Bre-X had a market capitalization of $4.4 billion.

    The party ended on March 19, 1997, when the gold mine proved to be fraudulent and the stock tumbled to pennies, shortly after. The major losers were the Quebec public sector pension fund, which lost $70 million, the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan, which lost $100 million, and the Ontario Municipal Employees' Retirement Board, which lost $45 million.
    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/00/100900.asp


    Valve and Facebook are notorious for remaining tight-lipped, because they don't want to become Quebec and Ontario in the Bre-X story.

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  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 395
    Trinity
    I forgot a point...how much of that $1000 price tag is affected by Trump's tariffs? An extra 15% on components not made in the USA, only available from China, really adds up.
  • EvileyesEvileyes Posts: 333
    Trinity
    Well now, after a long weekend of adjusting and testing, I turned a corner by opting in for beta in steam VR and what a difference did it make! That coupled with the fact I'm starting to use the rear pad for greater comfort also made a difference.. I jumped into Space pirate trainer and FINALLY saw the new SMOOTHNESS of the 120hz.. and it totally changed my outlook on this headset. And I assume, they will be fixing other issues with further software updates. Very excited about it again! So I would like to retract what I said previously in this thread.. and my index isnt going anywhere. :)

    SO, after a lot of tinkering... im back into this headset, and also bought some extra face mask gaskets. :) Totally happy with all aspects now.. I really enjoy this headset.  

    P.S. I also found Pokerstars VR (What a hidden gem!!!).. had a total blast playing cards and talking to people.. I guess its mainly for Oculus users, but I had some serious fun!
  • JaimieVandenberghJaimieVandenbergh Posts: 253
    Nexus 6
    Evileyes said:
    Well now, after a long weekend of adjusting and testing, I turned a corner by opting in for beta in steam VR and what a difference did it make! 
    Oh, interesting - I'd been avoiding the beta since the release version is crashy enough! Apart from smoothness, does it give any new features? I'm not with my Index for a few days.

  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,403 Valuable Player
    @Evileyes - Valve did say they didn't want to people to judge the Valve index when it was launched in June. They said the reason for this is that there are some big updates coming for it during the Summer. Hopefully things improve for it because it looks like a nice headset with it's build quality.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,828 Valuable Player
    Evileyes said:
    Well now, after a long weekend of adjusting and testing, I turned a corner by opting in for beta in steam VR and what a difference did it make! That coupled with the fact I'm starting to use the rear pad for greater comfort also made a difference.. I jumped into Space pirate trainer and FINALLY saw the new SMOOTHNESS of the 120hz.. and it totally changed my outlook on this headset. And I assume, they will be fixing other issues with further software updates. Very excited about it again! So I would like to retract what I said previously in this thread.. and my index isnt going anywhere. :)

    SO, after a lot of tinkering... im back into this headset, and also bought some extra face mask gaskets. :) Totally happy with all aspects now.. I really enjoy this headset.  

    P.S. I also found Pokerstars VR (What a hidden gem!!!).. had a total blast playing cards and talking to people.. I guess its mainly for Oculus users, but I had some serious fun!
    Oasis also recommended using the beta - fixed nearly all his problems (like cable disconnected error). 
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,828 Valuable Player
    Looks like a Ques*cough!* I mean looks like a 144 Hz game :blush:

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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,828 Valuable Player
    Review o' the day  o:)

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  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,568 Valuable Player
    edited July 8
    Yea perhaps that's why I haven't had all the problems I see people posting. I've been auto updating on the SteamVR beta since before I had the Index. I don't have any problems with mine on the software side. 
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,828 Valuable Player
    edited July 9
    Some dude posted that "second wave" (persons receiving Index in July) may include fixed Knuckles - but could just be a random lucky occurrence who knows... At least this is how Knuckles should work:

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,828 Valuable Player
    Review 'o the day - it's long, grab a cup of coffee ;)

    Valve Index Impressions (little long)

    My actual Valve Index is still on reserve but I had access to one for several days and spent ample time with it (including knuckles and 2.0 basestations). For comparison, I've used at least the following HMDs: Vive, Vive Pro (also with GearVR lenses), Rift, Rift S (~65mm IPD), Quest, Odyssey, Odyssey+. Below are my impressions, but I don't want to dwell too much on what has already been said so I've separated it out into sections with the latter part concerning what I think I can add to the conversation.
     
    TLDR: It's by far the best VR system I've ever used and it had a meaningful effect on both how I used VR and for how long I used it. As with every VR system out there it has its downsides (peripheral internal reflections visible in certain scenes and worse blacks) but that does not spoil its upsides. Also, this is without a doubt an enthusiast VR system, which may or may not be advantageous depending on the kind of user you are.
     
    First, just to quickly reiterate/confirm what most others have said:

    • (+) SDE takes real effort to notice now

    • (+) Pixel density and edge to edge clarity are massively improved over past HMDs (slightly better than Rift S but not dramatically better here)

    • (+) FOV increase is significant but not massive

    • (+) God rays and chromatic aberration are significantly reduced

    • (+) Ergonomic comfort is better than anything else I've used

    • (+) 120Hz/144Hz - Every HMD I buy from here on needs to at least be capable of 120hz and have comparable low persistence. Otherwise I won't even consider it. It's that good. It really does make things seem "hyper real"--for me at least.

    • (+) Visual comfort is better than anything else I've used. When I take this off I don't feel like I've been wearing a headset for 4 hours. I just want to go back in.

    • (+) Audio is incredibly immersive. My sense of the surrounding environment was so much more accurate and subtle. I felt like I had a natural sense of exactly where sounds were coming from and at times it almost felt like it was coming from the room. I was noticing sounds in the environment that I hadn't before. Games that do not have 3D audio will have to step up here because these headphones make their flat sound quite blatant.

    • (-) Internal reflections can be significant in certain scenes of very high contrast. However this never affected actual gameplay for me--it only really looked bad in certain white text on black background loading screens. It can be noticeable in some other scenes of high contrast of course, but the other benefits of the HMD are so significant that it's a non-issue for me.

    • (-) Washed out blacks. I 100% expected this coming in given that it's an LCD. However blacks have never looked good to me in VR anyway--to the extent that I've almost completely written off dark games until future technology makes them feasible (e.g. microled). It's always some trade off of: mura, black smear, clamped blacks to avoid black smear, or just washed out LCD blacks in general. Still, it's a legitimate downside inherent to LCD.

     
    Now on to what I haven't seen very many people talking about:

    • (+) Pupil swim: This is the first headset I've ever used in which noticeable pupil swim is basically gone and it blew me away. If you're not familiar with this, it's observed as a sort of warping of the image as you turn your head. Compared with the Rift and Rift S, I can immediately notice the difference. And at the very other extreme from the Index, you have the Odyssey or the Vive with GearVR lenses (which, for me, was like looking through a fish bowl). I know it's technically not possible to completely remove it without eyetracking but I had a lot of trouble picking up on any of it on the Index (maybe I'd need even more definition to notice subtle distortions at this level?).
       
      This dramatically increases immersion: I can finally look out over distant scenery or inspect detailed textures/geometry without this blatant warping serving as a constant reminder that I'm looking through a VR headset. This also has to be playing a role in the long term comfort of the HMD because pupil swim can be discomforting/taxing even if you're not consciously aware of the distortion.

    • (+) Cockpit games with 120+hz and low persistence: 120+hz and ultra low persistence has finally made racing and cockpit based games viable (for me). Prior to this, it always felt like my eyes would lose track of the image or that they "couldn't keep up". Turns out it's the image in the headset that couldn't keep up with what my eyes were expecting. The experience is so much better that it actually feels soothing to go around those turns now. An entirely new class of VR games are now accessible to me and I suspect to many other people as well. I still have trouble with the lack of variable focus in this context but I was surprised to find that this got me over the threshold of tolerability. And smooth locomotion in general is just so much better.

    • (+) 2.0 tracking: It has been massively improved upon. I mean, it almost feels twice as good as 1.0. In terms of just how it feels, it seems to have 1.0's near instantaneous response with much finer "granularity" / higher "resolution" (improved accuracy and precision). I was actually able to comfortably use the scopes in Onward and H3VR--a first for me (they were useable before but I just never wanted to due to the tracking limitations). I did not sense the tracking jitters or random shifting/rotations that every other tracking system I've tried has suffered from.
       
      If you look at my past posts, this is exactly what I was hoping future tracking systems would provide but I did not at all expect to get this out of 2.0. IMO the improved precision and accuracy will be critical for comfortable long distance aiming in larger scale VR FPSs. Competitive VR FPS players have told me that adding a 3rd base station improves upon the system further. Of course there are still clear limits to 2.0 tracking once you bump things up to very high levels of magnification, but this is a huge improvement and I'm glad that Valve sees the value in improving things further.

    • (+) Knuckles and handling weapons: This is another thing that blew me away and that I wasn't expecting. I did not try Pavlov because its knuckles implementation is not yet live--the only VR FPSs I tried were Onward and H3VR. But it has never felt this good to handle firearms in VR. It just feels so natural and rewarding and the strain on my wrists was basically minimized in every typical stance. The weight balance and center of mass feel great. Pistol handling feels especially good. When two handing them I no longer needed to contort my hands to avoid awkward collisions between them and tracking rings and the way in which you support one hand with the other is very natural and comfortable. I felt like I wouldn't have any issue keeping my hands extended like that for hours (say with a glock in HLVR...)
       
      Strangely, I actually got a little emotional when I tried all of these weapon interactions because it reminded me of when I was young and how my first high end gaming mouse instantaneously felt so natural and "augmenting" in FPSs. This felt like its counterpart in VR. Of course getting this right extends to the application designers as well, so big kudos to the devs. Anyone that's played enough FPSs knows how critical the "feel" of a weapon is and how that plays into how rewarding it is to use.
       
      Regarding the lack of a grip button (in the context of firearms handling), with prior motion controllers I had always used grip toggle because having to constantly resist Touch's grip trigger felt strange to me (nevermind holding in the Vive wands' grip buttons). It's not that it requires any significant force to keep de-pressed but rather I can feel how it keeps my wrist in constant tension. But with knuckles having a larger diameter grip and no button to resist, it feels just right. So many little things about the experience also work well, like how I can hold a weapon with any one finger and alternate between them to adjust the others (say, to let the inevitable moisture build up at contact dry out--as one would in real life). Compare this with Touch where you have to hold down that middle finger at all times if you don't want to release the item you're holding.

     
    Other things to note:

    • Adjustment: As others have stated, one really has to put in the time to adjust the headset to get the most out of it. While the edge to edge clarity/sweetspot is huge, the "adjustment sweetspot" is very specific. Getting it right is critical for clarity and minimizing both pupil swim and the internal reflections. But contrary to the complaints of others, I don't see this as a bad thing. From what others more knowledgeable about optics have told me, there is a trade off between making a lens that's optimal for a correct adjustment vs being "decent" for a range of adjustments. And perhaps this is related to why the Index has e.g. virtually no pupil swim compared to every other HMD I've tried.
       
      Personally, I like the fact that it is so obvious when the headset is not properly adjusted because I want to ensure I always have the optimal adjustment. And for me at least, when I find that optimal adjustment and then lock it in with the ratcheting mechanism, it stays there throughout the majority of the session.

    • Knuckles: I specifically left out something comprehensive about the knuckles--not because my impression of them wasn't positive but rather because I think a fair analysis warrants at least several weeks of usage and I don't have that opportunity as of right now. I wanted to point out weapon handling above because it felt so remarkable and I haven't seen too many people talking about it. They also felt amazing in other games for which developers clearly put in the time to specifically optimize the experience for them (e.g. Blade & Sorcery).
       
      But my preliminary impressions are that they are the best motion controllers I've ever used. Generally it feels like there is one less translation layer between you and the game world, and just seeing natural finger movement by itself increases immersion and adds to both the experience and expressiveness (which worked very well for me after I followed the instructions on properly calibrating them). As with the headset though, you really need to have the patience to find a fit that works best for you and spend some time with it. And I could see some people with atypical hands having trouble getting them to fit well in general.
       
      About the lack of a grip button/trigger: What I will say is that there are still some contexts where I'd like a grip trigger--specifically in contexts where the grip is mapped to more abstract actions. Sometimes having the capacity for a third binary input on one hand is valuable and with the thumb typically being fully occupied by the thumb-stick it would be too inconvenient and clunky to move the thumb off of the thumbstick to a button for such an action--another button accessible via your remaining 3 fingers would be ideal. E.g. in Windlands 2, squeezing the grip to activate the bow didn't feel quite right (I don't think this game has a "designed from the ground up" knuckles implementation yet but I wanted to see it at 120hz and don't regret doing so).
       
      However, as I noted above, having a basic grip trigger ala Touch would be a detriment to the contexts where pure capacitive touch works well. So, I'm already trying to think of ways that one could get the best of both worlds. I can see why you'd want each of them in different contexts (again, knuckles for more direct hand/finger and grasping simulation, and a grip trigger for more abstract actions). E.g. I'm imagining a grip trigger that can be programmatically controlled to forcefully repel/resist and retract (so it can function as a plain grip trigger, optionally collapse into the purely capacitive counterpart, perhaps serve many other functions with variable resistance e.g. simulating a squishy ball).
       
      About the lack of thumb-stick clicks: the controllers I was using did not suffer from this problem. However the force it took to click in the thumbsticks anywhere was high enough that I didn't find them practical for changing locomotion speeds in VR FPSs anyways and switched to edge run. This actually worked great for me--which was surprising because I didn't expect it to. However if you're coming Touch controllers I can see why this might bother you. I hope Valve is able to address this in a future revision and offer replacements--even if it's on a case by case basis because I don't think everyone cares.

     
    So, to wrap things up, all of these features taken together produce what I would say is the best VR experience available. The word that comes to mind is "solid"--the experience of VR just feels altogether more visceral and palpable. The effects it has on me are:

    • I want to stay in VR longer and when I get out (e.g. to take care of bodily needs) I often just want to go back in. With past headsets, when I took them off I knew I was done for the day. This tells me that Valve is converging on something significant.

    • It has expanded on the kinds of experiences that are viable and tolerable (for me and I suspect many others).

    • The overall experience is much more immersive and comfortable. The best way I can describe it as compared to prior headsets is as "relief". The impediments to VR usage are being gradually broken down and the Index is the best realization of this yet. I've shared my views on this many times in the past but I've always felt that VR's major "problems" are not currently in price or friction but rather in its discomforts and limitations. Even though it doesn't actually have the "gen 2" (or perhaps even "gen 3") features that I think are necessary to move VR outside of the enthusiast realm, the Index has only reinforced this belief.

     
    So thank you, Valve, for making this. I can't wait until I have my own.
     
     
    Lastly, I just want to add that this is most definitely an enthusiast headset in terms of what it optimizes/offers, how sensitive you are to those things, and the input, patience and time on your part that is required to see those benefits. It reminds me of a set of high end audiophile headphones. So if you consider yourself:

    • Someone that doesn't want to be bothered with dialing in and finding the optimal fit for your headset for the best experience (e.g. a gamer dude that just wants to plop on a headset with minimal friction and go)

    • Someone that isn't sensitive to distortion or image instability (e.g. you actually thought Vive [Pro] + GearVR lenses or the Samsung Odyssey offered a good visual experience)

    • Someone that doesn't notice the difference between 90hz and 120hz with low persistence (guess you'd have to test it under a variety of scenarios to know)

    • Someone that wants a controller that "just works", and/or doesn't want to wait for developers to provide an adaptation for a radically different controller design, and/or can't be bothered to remap controls yourself

    ... then perhaps reconsider whether the Index is a good fit for you.

    Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/cb53oe/valve_index_impressions_little_long/

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
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