The Index thread (please keep to subject) - Page 18 — Oculus
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The Index thread (please keep to subject)

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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,577 Valuable Player
    edited July 10
    Through the lens for what it's worth:

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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,577 Valuable Player
    edited July 10
    Maybe this is the money shot from Wood :blush:  - at least it shows the SDE probably as clear as possible - and it's extremely hard to see on the Index, click to enlarge:



    I do believe that if Oculus had allowed CV1 owners to get a new HMD with the Rift-S screen and the good old CV1 audio - and allowing the continued use of external tracking and old Touch - Oculus would have little competition. Apart from the screen I still feel my CV1 is perfect when it comes to audio, tracking, weight, stability (including software) and comfort. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,502 Valuable Player
    Its amazing how subjective this is - at least the video points out this is not a camera lens evaluations and that in the end its dependent on the subjective visual preference of the wearer. Because it is so difficult to explain a VR experience without placing the individual into it, it has allowed so much wiggle room for some to claim one visual experience is better than another. As seen in the flatscreen consumer market, too much vested hyperbole and too little visible difference hurt sales and consumer perception of reviews.
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    ** New Book **
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  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 3,573 Valuable Player
    I t would be swell if he did a comparison with HP Reverb as well once they get them fixed. 


    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 3,823 Valuable Player
    edited July 10
    i tell you what... that image above shows what a good job oculus/lenovo have done with clarity on the rift S (considering the price of it)   and i say that as someone unlikely to buy a rift S.
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,502 Valuable Player
    i tell you what... that image above shows what a good job oculus/lenovo have done with clarity on the rift S (considering the price of it)   and i say that as someone unlikely to buy a rift S.

    Totally agree @bigmike20vt - the team at Oculus/Lenovo did an amazing job on the visual quality on the system. Shame the other aspects seem to have broken the deal. Hope however, they will be encouraged to develop a non-flashing Rift-S+ in the same price-point. 

    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,577 Valuable Player
    edited July 10
    i tell you what... that image above shows what a good job oculus/lenovo have done with clarity on the rift S (considering the price of it)   and i say that as someone unlikely to buy a rift S.

    Agreed, Index may be way too expensive just for the screen compared to Rift-S (comparing res and SDE). Main arguments for the Index are the audio, tracking, physical IPD adjustment, Knuckles, 120/144 Hz and fov - persons who don't care much about these things should probably get the Rift-S - or continue waiting for an even better HMD. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,005 Valuable Player
    edited July 10
    I don’t really have an option with FOV being a High priority on my want list.

    I cant go back to binocular Vision. Wish I could try an index out.
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,121
    Wintermute
    edited July 10
    RuneSR2 said:
    Review 'o the day - it's long, grab a cup of coffee ;)

    Valve Index Impressions (little long)

    My actual Valve Index is still on reserve but I had access to one for several days and spent ample time with it (including knuckles and 2.0 basestations). For comparison, I've used at least the following HMDs: Vive, Vive Pro (also with GearVR lenses), Rift, Rift S (~65mm IPD), Quest, Odyssey, Odyssey+. Below are my impressions, but I don't want to dwell too much on what has already been said so I've separated it out into sections with the latter part concerning what I think I can add to the conversation.
     
    TLDR: It's by far the best VR system I've ever used and it had a meaningful effect on both how I used VR and for how long I used it. As with every VR system out there it has its downsides (peripheral internal reflections visible in certain scenes and worse blacks) but that does not spoil its upsides. Also, this is without a doubt an enthusiast VR system, which may or may not be advantageous depending on the kind of user you are.
     
    First, just to quickly reiterate/confirm what most others have said:

    • (+) SDE takes real effort to notice now

    • (+) Pixel density and edge to edge clarity are massively improved over past HMDs (slightly better than Rift S but not dramatically better here)

    • (+) FOV increase is significant but not massive

    • (+) God rays and chromatic aberration are significantly reduced

    • (+) Ergonomic comfort is better than anything else I've used

    • (+) 120Hz/144Hz - Every HMD I buy from here on needs to at least be capable of 120hz and have comparable low persistence. Otherwise I won't even consider it. It's that good. It really does make things seem "hyper real"--for me at least.

    • (+) Visual comfort is better than anything else I've used. When I take this off I don't feel like I've been wearing a headset for 4 hours. I just want to go back in.

    • (+) Audio is incredibly immersive. My sense of the surrounding environment was so much more accurate and subtle. I felt like I had a natural sense of exactly where sounds were coming from and at times it almost felt like it was coming from the room. I was noticing sounds in the environment that I hadn't before. Games that do not have 3D audio will have to step up here because these headphones make their flat sound quite blatant.

    • (-) Internal reflections can be significant in certain scenes of very high contrast. However this never affected actual gameplay for me--it only really looked bad in certain white text on black background loading screens. It can be noticeable in some other scenes of high contrast of course, but the other benefits of the HMD are so significant that it's a non-issue for me.

    • (-) Washed out blacks. I 100% expected this coming in given that it's an LCD. However blacks have never looked good to me in VR anyway--to the extent that I've almost completely written off dark games until future technology makes them feasible (e.g. microled). It's always some trade off of: mura, black smear, clamped blacks to avoid black smear, or just washed out LCD blacks in general. Still, it's a legitimate downside inherent to LCD.

     
    Now on to what I haven't seen very many people talking about:

    • (+) Pupil swim: This is the first headset I've ever used in which noticeable pupil swim is basically gone and it blew me away. If you're not familiar with this, it's observed as a sort of warping of the image as you turn your head. Compared with the Rift and Rift S, I can immediately notice the difference. And at the very other extreme from the Index, you have the Odyssey or the Vive with GearVR lenses (which, for me, was like looking through a fish bowl). I know it's technically not possible to completely remove it without eyetracking but I had a lot of trouble picking up on any of it on the Index (maybe I'd need even more definition to notice subtle distortions at this level?).
       
      This dramatically increases immersion: I can finally look out over distant scenery or inspect detailed textures/geometry without this blatant warping serving as a constant reminder that I'm looking through a VR headset. This also has to be playing a role in the long term comfort of the HMD because pupil swim can be discomforting/taxing even if you're not consciously aware of the distortion.

    • (+) Cockpit games with 120+hz and low persistence: 120+hz and ultra low persistence has finally made racing and cockpit based games viable (for me). Prior to this, it always felt like my eyes would lose track of the image or that they "couldn't keep up". Turns out it's the image in the headset that couldn't keep up with what my eyes were expecting. The experience is so much better that it actually feels soothing to go around those turns now. An entirely new class of VR games are now accessible to me and I suspect to many other people as well. I still have trouble with the lack of variable focus in this context but I was surprised to find that this got me over the threshold of tolerability. And smooth locomotion in general is just so much better.

    • (+) 2.0 tracking: It has been massively improved upon. I mean, it almost feels twice as good as 1.0. In terms of just how it feels, it seems to have 1.0's near instantaneous response with much finer "granularity" / higher "resolution" (improved accuracy and precision). I was actually able to comfortably use the scopes in Onward and H3VR--a first for me (they were useable before but I just never wanted to due to the tracking limitations). I did not sense the tracking jitters or random shifting/rotations that every other tracking system I've tried has suffered from.
       
      If you look at my past posts, this is exactly what I was hoping future tracking systems would provide but I did not at all expect to get this out of 2.0. IMO the improved precision and accuracy will be critical for comfortable long distance aiming in larger scale VR FPSs. Competitive VR FPS players have told me that adding a 3rd base station improves upon the system further. Of course there are still clear limits to 2.0 tracking once you bump things up to very high levels of magnification, but this is a huge improvement and I'm glad that Valve sees the value in improving things further.

    • (+) Knuckles and handling weapons: This is another thing that blew me away and that I wasn't expecting. I did not try Pavlov because its knuckles implementation is not yet live--the only VR FPSs I tried were Onward and H3VR. But it has never felt this good to handle firearms in VR. It just feels so natural and rewarding and the strain on my wrists was basically minimized in every typical stance. The weight balance and center of mass feel great. Pistol handling feels especially good. When two handing them I no longer needed to contort my hands to avoid awkward collisions between them and tracking rings and the way in which you support one hand with the other is very natural and comfortable. I felt like I wouldn't have any issue keeping my hands extended like that for hours (say with a glock in HLVR...)
       
      Strangely, I actually got a little emotional when I tried all of these weapon interactions because it reminded me of when I was young and how my first high end gaming mouse instantaneously felt so natural and "augmenting" in FPSs. This felt like its counterpart in VR. Of course getting this right extends to the application designers as well, so big kudos to the devs. Anyone that's played enough FPSs knows how critical the "feel" of a weapon is and how that plays into how rewarding it is to use.
       
      Regarding the lack of a grip button (in the context of firearms handling), with prior motion controllers I had always used grip toggle because having to constantly resist Touch's grip trigger felt strange to me (nevermind holding in the Vive wands' grip buttons). It's not that it requires any significant force to keep de-pressed but rather I can feel how it keeps my wrist in constant tension. But with knuckles having a larger diameter grip and no button to resist, it feels just right. So many little things about the experience also work well, like how I can hold a weapon with any one finger and alternate between them to adjust the others (say, to let the inevitable moisture build up at contact dry out--as one would in real life). Compare this with Touch where you have to hold down that middle finger at all times if you don't want to release the item you're holding.

     
    Other things to note:

    • Adjustment: As others have stated, one really has to put in the time to adjust the headset to get the most out of it. While the edge to edge clarity/sweetspot is huge, the "adjustment sweetspot" is very specific. Getting it right is critical for clarity and minimizing both pupil swim and the internal reflections. But contrary to the complaints of others, I don't see this as a bad thing. From what others more knowledgeable about optics have told me, there is a trade off between making a lens that's optimal for a correct adjustment vs being "decent" for a range of adjustments. And perhaps this is related to why the Index has e.g. virtually no pupil swim compared to every other HMD I've tried.
       
      Personally, I like the fact that it is so obvious when the headset is not properly adjusted because I want to ensure I always have the optimal adjustment. And for me at least, when I find that optimal adjustment and then lock it in with the ratcheting mechanism, it stays there throughout the majority of the session.

    • Knuckles: I specifically left out something comprehensive about the knuckles--not because my impression of them wasn't positive but rather because I think a fair analysis warrants at least several weeks of usage and I don't have that opportunity as of right now. I wanted to point out weapon handling above because it felt so remarkable and I haven't seen too many people talking about it. They also felt amazing in other games for which developers clearly put in the time to specifically optimize the experience for them (e.g. Blade & Sorcery).
       
      But my preliminary impressions are that they are the best motion controllers I've ever used. Generally it feels like there is one less translation layer between you and the game world, and just seeing natural finger movement by itself increases immersion and adds to both the experience and expressiveness (which worked very well for me after I followed the instructions on properly calibrating them). As with the headset though, you really need to have the patience to find a fit that works best for you and spend some time with it. And I could see some people with atypical hands having trouble getting them to fit well in general.
       
      About the lack of a grip button/trigger: What I will say is that there are still some contexts where I'd like a grip trigger--specifically in contexts where the grip is mapped to more abstract actions. Sometimes having the capacity for a third binary input on one hand is valuable and with the thumb typically being fully occupied by the thumb-stick it would be too inconvenient and clunky to move the thumb off of the thumbstick to a button for such an action--another button accessible via your remaining 3 fingers would be ideal. E.g. in Windlands 2, squeezing the grip to activate the bow didn't feel quite right (I don't think this game has a "designed from the ground up" knuckles implementation yet but I wanted to see it at 120hz and don't regret doing so).
       
      However, as I noted above, having a basic grip trigger ala Touch would be a detriment to the contexts where pure capacitive touch works well. So, I'm already trying to think of ways that one could get the best of both worlds. I can see why you'd want each of them in different contexts (again, knuckles for more direct hand/finger and grasping simulation, and a grip trigger for more abstract actions). E.g. I'm imagining a grip trigger that can be programmatically controlled to forcefully repel/resist and retract (so it can function as a plain grip trigger, optionally collapse into the purely capacitive counterpart, perhaps serve many other functions with variable resistance e.g. simulating a squishy ball).
       
      About the lack of thumb-stick clicks: the controllers I was using did not suffer from this problem. However the force it took to click in the thumbsticks anywhere was high enough that I didn't find them practical for changing locomotion speeds in VR FPSs anyways and switched to edge run. This actually worked great for me--which was surprising because I didn't expect it to. However if you're coming Touch controllers I can see why this might bother you. I hope Valve is able to address this in a future revision and offer replacements--even if it's on a case by case basis because I don't think everyone cares.

     
    So, to wrap things up, all of these features taken together produce what I would say is the best VR experience available. The word that comes to mind is "solid"--the experience of VR just feels altogether more visceral and palpable. The effects it has on me are:

    • I want to stay in VR longer and when I get out (e.g. to take care of bodily needs) I often just want to go back in. With past headsets, when I took them off I knew I was done for the day. This tells me that Valve is converging on something significant.

    • It has expanded on the kinds of experiences that are viable and tolerable (for me and I suspect many others).

    • The overall experience is much more immersive and comfortable. The best way I can describe it as compared to prior headsets is as "relief". The impediments to VR usage are being gradually broken down and the Index is the best realization of this yet. I've shared my views on this many times in the past but I've always felt that VR's major "problems" are not currently in price or friction but rather in its discomforts and limitations. Even though it doesn't actually have the "gen 2" (or perhaps even "gen 3") features that I think are necessary to move VR outside of the enthusiast realm, the Index has only reinforced this belief.

     
    So thank you, Valve, for making this. I can't wait until I have my own.
     
     
    Lastly, I just want to add that this is most definitely an enthusiast headset in terms of what it optimizes/offers, how sensitive you are to those things, and the input, patience and time on your part that is required to see those benefits. It reminds me of a set of high end audiophile headphones. So if you consider yourself:

    • Someone that doesn't want to be bothered with dialing in and finding the optimal fit for your headset for the best experience (e.g. a gamer dude that just wants to plop on a headset with minimal friction and go)

    • Someone that isn't sensitive to distortion or image instability (e.g. you actually thought Vive [Pro] + GearVR lenses or the Samsung Odyssey offered a good visual experience)

    • Someone that doesn't notice the difference between 90hz and 120hz with low persistence (guess you'd have to test it under a variety of scenarios to know)

    • Someone that wants a controller that "just works", and/or doesn't want to wait for developers to provide an adaptation for a radically different controller design, and/or can't be bothered to remap controls yourself

    ... then perhaps reconsider whether the Index is a good fit for you.

    Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/cb53oe/valve_index_impressions_little_long/


    OMFG that review has sold it to me for sure!!

    I was going back and forth but the excitement has kicked back in!!!!

    I need to get my hands on Index! haha

    I'm still waiting on my email to purchase I'm guessing I won't get an email until August though. I can't really afford it at the moment but I'm sure I'll work something out!  :p
    UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,744 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Through the lens for what it's worth:


    Fucking hell, I know that it's difficult to judge because they're through the lens shots, but the Vive Pro looks fucking AWFUL in all of those clips compared to the other two. :o
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

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  • EvileyesEvileyes Posts: 306
    Trinity
    edited July 10
    Well I can tell you without a doubt, the Vive Pro looks way better when you have it on.. those lens shots are for the birds.. I can HARDLY tell the difference between the index and Pro.. index is slightly better visually. (I also find it funny that the index in these shots has better color, thats not the case with my Pro.. My pro's colors are vivid.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,260 Valuable Player
    Sticking a camera in-front of a lens to try and show people what these headsets are like is one big :D
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,005 Valuable Player
    @evileyes Could you tell me what the FOV is like in the Index. Do you have it dialed right in and has it lost that binocular feeling when looking through the CV1?

  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,790 Valuable Player
    Sorry, won't be reading the entire thread...

    Are there many games already utilising the full features of the Knuckles controllers?

    How many people on here own one?
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,005 Valuable Player
    I think 5, but 2 definitely.

    jab
    pyroth309
    evileyes
    oculushomie or something like that
    KlodsBrik
  • EvileyesEvileyes Posts: 306
    Trinity
    @evileyes Could you tell me what the FOV is like in the Index. Do you have it dialed right in and has it lost that binocular feeling when looking through the CV1?

    FOV is better, that said.. not by much.  But better is better :)
  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,790 Valuable Player
    Evileyes said:
    @evileyes Could you tell me what the FOV is like in the Index. Do you have it dialed right in and has it lost that binocular feeling when looking through the CV1?

    FOV is better, that said.. not by much.  But better is better :)

    Any issues with games and the Knuckles controllers?

    Many games using them to their full potential?
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,108 Valuable Player
    Evileyes said:
    Well I can tell you without a doubt, the Vive Pro looks way better when you have it on.. those lens shots are for the birds.. I can HARDLY tell the difference between the index and Pro.. index is slightly better visually. (I also find it funny that the index in these shots has better color, thats not the case with my Pro.. My pro's colors are vivid.

    All the "thru the lens" videos remind me of little kids pretending to be animals. Like children barking and meowing in order to act like dogs and cats. Yes, that is kinda what doggies and kitties sound like, but also no... it's not even close to the real thing.
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  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,790 Valuable Player
    Oh puurlease! 300 degrees donchya know!


  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 4,790 Valuable Player
    edited July 11
    Anybody posted this video yet?



    Edit: just seen your post with this video on the other thread Zenbane! lol
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 2,577 Valuable Player
    edited July 11
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz boost, 11 Ghz ram); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Oculus Rift CV1 - nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,005 Valuable Player
    edited July 12
    Definitely seems holding off until the stick issue is completely cleared up seems wise.
  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 307
    Trinity
    Makes me wonder how the Pimax controllers are doing. They seem to be selling them @ $300 USD for 2 controllers and 2 base stations.

    https://pimaxvr.com/collections/store/products/pimax-base-station-and-wireless-controllersdeposit?variant=17504875479099
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,502 Valuable Player
    I would love any facts on how the Pimax is doing full-stop. They have gone dark returning emails, and just changed their management again so no answers to the previous questions raised at IFA. Seem the VR media is focused only on reporting announcements with zero followup!
    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,158 Volunteer Moderator
    kevinw729 said:
    I would love any facts on how the Pimax is doing full-stop. They have gone dark returning emails, and just changed their management again so no answers to the previous questions raised at IFA. Seem the VR media is focused only on reporting announcements with zero followup!
    This comes to mind in their offices Kev =


    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,005 Valuable Player
    I would love to try a Pimax, does anywhere in the UK demo them? I would doubt the Index has any demos going on here.
  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,158 Volunteer Moderator
    Amazon sell them, if you are a prime member you could order one for testing purposes and return.....errrr keep ;)
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,005 Valuable Player
    Hmm not sure I am that brave or curious :) Remember in the old days when you could go to the shops and look at things ..sigh.
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