Touch vs Index controllers and why I prefer Touch — Oculus
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Touch vs Index controllers and why I prefer Touch

MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,606
Project 2501
edited August 8 in General
When I first saw the knuckles/index controllers being demoed, I was wowed by them and couldn't wait to get my hands on them. Now that I have them, I think I prefer Touch and I'll explain why...

The Thumbsticks


1. Notice how the index is dimpled. You have a much better tactile feel and grip for your thumb. Both XBox One and PS4 controllers have this. Why mess with perfection?

2. With Touch your last two fingers, pinky and ring finger, both grip the end of the controller as you move the thumbstick giving you better leverage and control. For the Index, griping is grabbing so can't grab.

The buttons

1. Notice how the Touch has four distinctly labeled buttons A, B, Y, X just like the XBox controller or PS4 controller using symbols. Index has A, B for both. They can be mapped differently but in games, you can't get a convenient Y or X indicator for what button you need to press. 

Grabbing

1. On Touch, grab is a trigger type button with travel. You clearly feel it and know how much travel you're applying. The Index depends on pressure. If you squeeze it hard enough you'll feel some click like feedback. This creates ambiguity when holding something. If the pressure your applying drops below some threshold, you drop what you're holding. I find that I grab things I didn't intend to grab and drop things that I didn't intend to drop. 

Tracking your ring and index finger serves very little practical use in games. Game makers aren't going to want to use a feature that's exclusive to the Index. And it's hard to imagine what you would really do with those fingers in a game that would be meaningful. 

Strap

1. You have the extra hassle of slipping your hands into the traps and out of the straps. It's not a huge hassle but it feels like taking gloves off one at a time versus just putting the controller down. 

2. Because your hands are strapped in, you can't slide your thumb up and down as easily as you can with touch. 

Charging

When I finish playing with my Index I have to remember to plug the controllers in to charge. With Touch I use rechargeable batteries and I can always just swap out batteries when they get low. It takes about 3 hours to charge the Index controllers. But that's a matter of preference. Some people prefer the ps4 controllers vs xbox battery swap. 

Price

1. We all smash our controller onto the wall or a desk once in a while. So, it's better if they're cheaper to replace if you break them.

The bottom line is while they look better and have this cool looking finger tracking feature, they're not functionally better yet cost much more. And for some crazy reason, they abandoned controller conventions that have been around for decades. 

I'm not even going to discuss how bad the trackpad/d-pad thingy is because Touch doesn't have one so overall it's an advantage for the index. You can press it like a button and use it like the d-pad in the xbox and ps4 controllers. 

It may seem like I'm trashing the Index controllers but I'm not. They're a huge improvement over wands and finger tracking is cool. 
 



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Comments

  • sraurasraura Posts: 589
    Trinity
    Great review, thank you.
  • Yobiwan29Yobiwan29 Posts: 53
    Hiro Protagonist
    I agree with you. I've got a Quest, Rift S and I bought an Index. I've been very disappointed by the knuckles comfort and ergonomy. I didn't feel the sensation of freedom that reviewers mentionned. Returned it and kept my Oculus devices.
    Oculus Rift S - Oculus Quest - Gigabyte Z390 M Gaming - i7 8700 - 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200 MHz - Aorus GTX 1080Ti - 2 To SSD - Corsair RM650X 80+ gold
  • OculusHomieOculusHomie Posts: 29
    Brain Burst
    But when you have Quest you have to put it on charge every time you take it off because it doesn’t use rechargeable batteries. Quest outsells the Rift S according to the claims Oculus can’t make enough of them. So if Oculuses top selling headset uses built in battery and sells better than RiftS how can Knuckles be wrong for having a built in batteries? It makes no sense to argue against Valve decision when it’s the same decision as Oculus. 
  • OculusHomieOculusHomie Posts: 29
    Brain Burst
    When I play Vadar Immortal at one point I have to put my hand flat on a hand scanner. I can do this perfect with Knuckles but I wouldn’t be able to do this with Touch controllers. Instead I would have to hold on to the controller and open only my thumb, Index and ring finger. Did Disney realise they were releasing their experience for Touch because it’s become the perfect demo for Knuckles.

    When I’m climbing ladders I open my hand fully, grab a rung and grip as though I were climbing a real pair of ladders. With Touch I wouldn’t be able to do this as I’d drop the controller. 

    When I grab my Light Saber I just grab it with Knuckles but with Touch I’m already gripping my controller before I grab the Light Saber so there’s this total immersion breaking disconnect. 

    When playing Onward I just grab a grenade from my belt and throw it as if it was a real grenade. With Touch if I let go of the grenade I end up grenading my cat with my Touch controller or throwing it out the window.

    I don’t know how people can find Knuckles a pain to put on and take of when they have take the RiftS on and off their face which to me is rather more off putting than a strap on the back of your hand. 

    I know which one I prefer.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,379 Valuable Player
    edited August 8


    I know which one I prefer.

    Yes, and you always prefer non-Oculus products for the wrong reasons. You champion "anything but Oculus" by default. How many new HMD's have you bought in the last 3 years trying to find one that is worth keeping? Vive, Pimax, Index. You spend more time and money trying to convince yourself that Oculus products are bad than you do actually enjoying this great technology.

    Threads like this are for those with a firm and thorough understanding of both Virtual Reality and Technology, with an open mind.
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  • Star-lizardStar-lizard Posts: 338
    Trinity
    Not sure if this has been posted before but if you want a similar grip as the index


  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,379 Valuable Player

    This is a fantastic analysis. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the most analytical post I've ever seen you make! And I mean that as a compliment. That was a fantastic read. It was factual, to-the-point, and relatable. You need to do this more often, sir. Well written!

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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,989 Valuable Player
    You couldn't make this shit up lmfao :D

    This is Atmos' fourth account and I'm pretty sure it won't be the last because when the mods ban this one he's bound to come back and create a fifth one.

    This HAS to be some form of mental illness, and I should know because I have one myself. Atmos. Get help. You need it.
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • kojackkojack Posts: 5,451 Volunteer Moderator
    The Steam Controller did the same thing with the thumbstick, it's smooth domed convex instead of concave.
    Concave gives better grip. Otherwise you need to go the hatswitch style and have a larger shape to push against.

  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,606
    Project 2501
    kojack said:
    The Steam Controller did the same thing with the thumbstick, it's smooth domed convex instead of concave.
    Concave gives better grip. Otherwise you need to go the hatswitch style and have a larger shape to push against.


    And if you need to flick the stick, it's better having those ridges around the convex surface. If you try to flick the index sticks you slip off. 
    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,379 Valuable Player
    MowTin said:
    And if you need to flick the stick


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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,064 Valuable Player
    I've been using both old Touch and Knuckles the last weeks, I don't experience much difference. Just like Touch, Knuckles disappear in my hands and when in a game I don't notice much if I'm using one or the other. Materials do feel of better quality using Knuckles - old Touch does feel more cheap. Both seem quite sturdy, now I've banged both into walls with no problems :-)

    Advantages with Knuckles is the pressure sensitive grabbing function - works great for me - you now grab things in VR just like in the real world. I don't drop them, the sensitive grab also works as one large button (just like Touch). And you no longer need to constantly hold the controller - you can just let go and you still won't drop Knuckles in the real world. Knuckles feel more light, maybe because they don't have to hold an AA battery, but I haven't measured the weight. Also Knuckles gives you full finger tracking - it really works and to me it increases presence - I like being able to move all my fingers like I can in the real world.
     
    I just helped one dev getting Knuckles control implemented in his game (which soon will be available in the Oculus Store and on Steam) - it was extremely easy, because you can map Touch to Knuckles 1:1. Same goes for Revive. So Touch has buttons A, B, C, D, while Knuckles have 2 x A and 2 x B, but you can't see the letters inside VR and basically you have 2 round buttons on each Touch controller and the same on Knuckles - and they're placed so similarly that my brain doesn't notice any significant difference. Same goes for the thumbsticks. Main difference is the trackpad between thumstick and the round buttons - in many games the trackpad simply works like the flat round button on the left Touch - you use it to open in-game menus. In some games trackpads are used for teleport controls and add an extra dimension - like in Garden of the Sea. 

    The one area where differences may appear seems more to be QA, where many have gotten Knuckles with a thumbstick, where some movements don't correctly register. I haven't experienced problems with mine though. Old Touch seemed to have awesome QA. And Knuckles are more expensive - then again, old Touch did cost $350 over here two years ago, so Knuckles may in fact be cheaper ;) 

    In short - even though I'm a great fan of old Touch, I like Knuckles better if I had to choose - but you're not going to get a bad VR experience no matter what you use, we're not talking about the WMR or PSVR controllers here, lol.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,379 Valuable Player
    edited August 8
    RuneSR2 said:
    old Touch did cost $350 over here two years ago, so Knuckles may in fact be cheaper ;)

    Old Touch was $199 USD, and it came quite a bit of free software: The Unspoken, VR Sports Challenge, Dead & Buried, Quill, Oculus Medium, and Robo Recall. And then later came Echo Arena.

    And that's not counting the demo software like First Contact and Toy Box.

    So if you set aside any demo software that came with your Knuckle controllers, what free software did you get? If you do your Math correctly, there is no scenario where Knuckles were cheaper. But when we account for their manufacturer defects, they are definitely cheaper in that regard
    :)

    I've held the Valve Wands several times, and Knuckles have a similar design. The over-sized bulkiness is not the same as the Oculus Touch. Neither old Touch nor new Touch. Now I've read your thoughts on Index over in the "Index Thread," and I can't help but feel like you just champion it by choice. And there's nothing wrong with that. But MowTin has provided what I feel is a much more unbiased analysis here.
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,989 Valuable Player
    Well he did say, 'over here'. Perhaps Canada or Australia?
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,038 Volunteer Moderator
    edited August 9

    Just a reminder in reference to an earlier post. If everyone can avoid references to mental illness or excessive personal attacks (well, personal attacks in general), that would be great. I'll also butt out of this conversation henceforth as I don't want to stoke any fires.

    I will however keep checking on posts including assessing the likelihood that any poster is returning from exile which is definitely not going to go unchecked.

    Thanks.

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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,064 Valuable Player
    Zenbane said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    old Touch did cost $350 over here two years ago, so Knuckles may in fact be cheaper ;)

    Old Touch was $199 USD, and it came quite a bit of free software: The Unspoken, VR Sports Challenge, Dead & Buried, Quill, Oculus Medium, and Robo Recall. And then later came Echo Arena.

    And that's not counting the demo software like First Contact and Toy Box.

    So if you set aside any demo software that came with your Knuckle controllers, what free software did you get? If you do your Math correctly, there is no scenario where Knuckles were cheaper. But when we account for their manufacturer defects, they are definitely cheaper in that regard
    :)

    I've held the Valve Wands several times, and Knuckles have a similar design. The over-sized bulkiness is not the same as the Oculus Touch. Neither old Touch nor new Touch. Now I've read your thoughts on Index over in the "Index Thread," and I can't help but feel like you just champion it by choice. And there's nothing wrong with that. But MowTin has provided what I feel is a much more unbiased analysis here.

    I think it's more about your hands - seems that if you have too large or too small hands Knuckles may not fit well, even though the hand strap can be adjusted. Maybe Touch differs less from person to person, but I really don't have a problem with Knuckles. You do have to get the hand straps set correctly - not too tight and not too loose. 
    In Scandinavia old Touch was $350 (€300 at the official Oculus dealer in Denmark named ElGiganten, where Klodsbrik usually buy his stuff ;-) in 2017, and of course that would be a better deal if you got a lot of software to go with it (I bought the bundle back then). Right now Knuckles are priced at similar €299 in Europe, but Knuckles have no associated software (Moondust and Aperture Hand Lab are awesome, but you have to find them on Steam by yourself, and these are tech demos not real games). 
    I don't think "one size fits all" works when comparing old Touch and Knuckles, I'd suggest to try both for some days and see what works best for you. Knuckles have 14 days return period:

    "For Valve Index Hardware (virtual reality headset, base stations and controllers) you have the right to cancel any purchase of the Hardware on Steam within 14 days from the day on which you or a third party indicated by you (other than the carrier) receives the Hardware purchased. To exercise this right, you must inform us of your decision to cancel your order by an unequivocal statement."
    Source: https://store.steampowered.com/hardware_order_terms
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,379 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    In Scandinavia old Touch was $350 (€300 at the official Oculus dealer in Denmark

    Right now Knuckles are priced at similar €299 in Europe

    You are playing around with a lot of Math. But lets just keep it simple and factual.
    • At release, Oculus Touch was $199 USD
    • At release, Valve Knuckles are $279 USD

    $199 < $279

    So you are quite wrong to say that Knuckles are priced cheaper than the original Touch Controllers. And when you factor in all the free software that came with Touch... well, the Math gets even worse for the Knuckles.

    Link to the Valve store for pricing:
    https://store.steampowered.com/valveindex

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  • WildtWildt Posts: 1,959 Valuable Player
    edited August 9
    Zenbane said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    In Scandinavia old Touch was $350 (€300 at the official Oculus dealer in Denmark

    Right now Knuckles are priced at similar €299 in Europe

    You are playing around with a lot of Math. 
    REALLY? :lol:


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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,064 Valuable Player
    Fun fact - or a tragedy - but some Scandinavian dealers still have good ol' Touch in stock for the original price of dkr. 2300 and more. That's $350 :# 

    https://www.proshop.dk/VR-Gamer-Briller/Oculus-Touch-Controllers/2576276 

    https://www.skypilot.dk/shop/oculus-rift-touch-controller-818p.html

    Everything is just so much cheaper in the US, had to bleed $1250 for the Index kit over here. But you can't put a price on happiness, lol. In short - yes Touch is cheaper than Knuckles, also if you value the software, but at launch both controller types were considered expensive by many persons (also depending on your location on the planet ;-)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,379 Valuable Player
    edited August 9
    RuneSR2 said:
    Fun fact - or a tragedy - but some Scandinavian dealers still have good ol' Touch in stock for the original price of dkr. 2300 and more. That's $350 :# 


    Rght now Valve Index with Knuckles is selling for $1,500 on E-Bay:
    Full Listing


    RuneSR2 said:
    Everything is just so much cheaper in the US

    Well, we need to consider that we are comparing the prices of US-based organizations. So it's not about just picking and choosing which Region to use for our Math comparisons. Valve is a US-based company, and so is both Oculus and Facebook. So if we're going to compare retail prices of US-based company products, then we need to do so in US dollars. Especially if we're going to try to proclaim which one was truly cheaper at launch.
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,064 Valuable Player
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,379 Valuable Player
    edited August 9
    RuneSR2 said:

    I like this. The Rift at $1500 with a perfect 5-star product rating. Sounds about right for a legendary first gen product. I'm sure @OculusHomie loves that.
    ;)
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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 6,989 Valuable Player
    The software you got for pre ordering the Touch controllers was just plain ridiculous. I felt guilty about getting it all lol
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  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 6,354 Volunteer Moderator
    edited August 9
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,074 Valuable Player
    edited August 9
    touch were and still are brilliant controllers although we would have to compare index against the current model which is now sensor free which is a plus for set up but a negative for accuracy. So for me current touch would be a no go full stop.

    Have not  tried the index controllers yet but I would have been happy with just the old touch and 200 dollars cheaper but will reserve my opinion until I have tried them personally..
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,379 Valuable Player
    edited August 9
    touch were and still are brilliant controllers although we would have to compare index against the current model which is now sensor free which is a plus for set up but a negative for accuracy.

    So do you own the new Touch Controllers for either the Rift-S or Quest? Because it is not true to say that they are negative on accuracy. My Touch controllers for Oculus Quest are incredibly accurate. And I've done some fast movements with Light Sabers in Vader Immortal. I see no difference in accuracy between Quest's controllers and my original Touch controllers for the CV1.

    So while it is true that we need to compare against "current model," we also need to compare by being truthful about the products.
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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,038 Volunteer Moderator
    edited August 9

    From my personal experience I see zero difference in accuracy between old and new Touch.

    There's lost tracking if too close to the headset which I think is a different issue and in practice this only happens when I scratch my face when holding the controllers. I also don't put my hands behind my back much!

    Different areas of occlusion too of course. The outside in Touch are occluded when something is between them an the cameras, the inside-out Touches get occluded when one hand is between the other and the headset. Again, in practice, this only happens when a hand is too near to the headset.

    I had only 2 sensors with CV1 so occlusion was happening all the time, completely impractical for anything other than forward facing and I believe people who say inside-out is better than 3 sensors.

    But that's occlusion. Accuracy... no difference that I can make out.

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