New to the forums? Click here to read the "How To" Guide.
Developer? Click here to go to the Developer Forums.
Developer? Click here to go to the Developer Forums.
Touch vs Index controllers and why I prefer Touch
Valuable Player
When I first saw the knuckles/index controllers being demoed, I was wowed by them and couldn't wait to get my hands on them. Now that I have them, I think I prefer Touch and I'll explain why...
The Thumbsticks
1. Notice how the index is dimpled. You have a much better tactile feel and grip for your thumb. Both XBox One and PS4 controllers have this. Why mess with perfection?
2. With Touch your last two fingers, pinky and ring finger, both grip the end of the controller as you move the thumbstick giving you better leverage and control. For the Index, griping is grabbing so can't grab.
The buttons
1. Notice how the Touch has four distinctly labeled buttons A, B, Y, X just like the XBox controller or PS4 controller using symbols. Index has A, B for both. They can be mapped differently but in games, you can't get a convenient Y or X indicator for what button you need to press.
Grabbing
1. On Touch, grab is a trigger type button with travel. You clearly feel it and know how much travel you're applying. The Index depends on pressure. If you squeeze it hard enough you'll feel some click like feedback. This creates ambiguity when holding something. If the pressure your applying drops below some threshold, you drop what you're holding. I find that I grab things I didn't intend to grab and drop things that I didn't intend to drop.
Tracking your ring and index finger serves very little practical use in games. Game makers aren't going to want to use a feature that's exclusive to the Index. And it's hard to imagine what you would really do with those fingers in a game that would be meaningful.
Strap
1. You have the extra hassle of slipping your hands into the traps and out of the straps. It's not a huge hassle but it feels like taking gloves off one at a time versus just putting the controller down.
2. Because your hands are strapped in, you can't slide your thumb up and down as easily as you can with touch.
Charging
When I finish playing with my Index I have to remember to plug the controllers in to charge. With Touch I use rechargeable batteries and I can always just swap out batteries when they get low. It takes about 3 hours to charge the Index controllers. But that's a matter of preference. Some people prefer the ps4 controllers vs xbox battery swap.
Price
1. We all smash our controller onto the wall or a desk once in a while. So, it's better if they're cheaper to replace if you break them.
The bottom line is while they look better and have this cool looking finger tracking feature, they're not functionally better yet cost much more. And for some crazy reason, they abandoned controller conventions that have been around for decades.
I'm not even going to discuss how bad the trackpad/d-pad thingy is because Touch doesn't have one so overall it's an advantage for the index. You can press it like a button and use it like the d-pad in the xbox and ps4 controllers.
It may seem like I'm trashing the Index controllers but I'm not. They're a huge improvement over wands and finger tracking is cool.
The Thumbsticks
1. Notice how the index is dimpled. You have a much better tactile feel and grip for your thumb. Both XBox One and PS4 controllers have this. Why mess with perfection?
2. With Touch your last two fingers, pinky and ring finger, both grip the end of the controller as you move the thumbstick giving you better leverage and control. For the Index, griping is grabbing so can't grab.
The buttons
1. Notice how the Touch has four distinctly labeled buttons A, B, Y, X just like the XBox controller or PS4 controller using symbols. Index has A, B for both. They can be mapped differently but in games, you can't get a convenient Y or X indicator for what button you need to press.
Grabbing
1. On Touch, grab is a trigger type button with travel. You clearly feel it and know how much travel you're applying. The Index depends on pressure. If you squeeze it hard enough you'll feel some click like feedback. This creates ambiguity when holding something. If the pressure your applying drops below some threshold, you drop what you're holding. I find that I grab things I didn't intend to grab and drop things that I didn't intend to drop.
Tracking your ring and index finger serves very little practical use in games. Game makers aren't going to want to use a feature that's exclusive to the Index. And it's hard to imagine what you would really do with those fingers in a game that would be meaningful.
Strap
1. You have the extra hassle of slipping your hands into the traps and out of the straps. It's not a huge hassle but it feels like taking gloves off one at a time versus just putting the controller down.
2. Because your hands are strapped in, you can't slide your thumb up and down as easily as you can with touch.
Charging
When I finish playing with my Index I have to remember to plug the controllers in to charge. With Touch I use rechargeable batteries and I can always just swap out batteries when they get low. It takes about 3 hours to charge the Index controllers. But that's a matter of preference. Some people prefer the ps4 controllers vs xbox battery swap.
Price
1. We all smash our controller onto the wall or a desk once in a while. So, it's better if they're cheaper to replace if you break them.
The bottom line is while they look better and have this cool looking finger tracking feature, they're not functionally better yet cost much more. And for some crazy reason, they abandoned controller conventions that have been around for decades.
I'm not even going to discuss how bad the trackpad/d-pad thingy is because Touch doesn't have one so overall it's an advantage for the index. You can press it like a button and use it like the d-pad in the xbox and ps4 controllers.
It may seem like I'm trashing the Index controllers but I'm not. They're a huge improvement over wands and finger tracking is cool.
i7 9700k 2080ti CV1, Rift-S, Index
8
Comments
Having a rechargeable lithium ion battery in an untethered headset is not a matter of choice, it's a fundamental requirement, you simply can't opt to put in rechargeable AA's for example because of the weight and capacity.
Rechargable AA's in hand controllers don't have a weight problem, in fact, when added to the Touch controllers, give a nice balanced feel, so have all the benefits, including the ability to hot swap and no need to remember to charge between play. They last for over 10 hours and I always have a pair of charged batteries on standby.
Having to charge the headset between plays is better than having to charge headset and controllers. plus, when using a plug-in battery pack to extent headset play, there's no risk of ever having to stop to recharge the controllers.
Using the same controllers for Rift-S has no limits on play time at all because of the replaceable batteries. Added to this, having a universal controller for both headsets has all the benefits listed above, plus the economies of manufacturing scale, reducing costs as opposed to separate designs.
Tbh I think this lack of understanding is something only a very few people would have. As has been said, you're increasingly looking like a twice or thrice banned poster. If so, I think for your own self respect, it's probably best not to stalk the forum of a company and hardware you dislike.
Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
This is Atmos' fourth account and I'm pretty sure it won't be the last because when the mods ban this one he's bound to come back and create a fifth one.
This HAS to be some form of mental illness, and I should know because I have one myself. Atmos. Get help. You need it.
Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
Ok, I'll take that as a compliment. I usually try to avoid long posts.
Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
Advantages with Knuckles is the pressure sensitive grabbing function - works great for me - you now grab things in VR just like in the real world. I don't drop them, the sensitive grab also works as one large button (just like Touch). And you no longer need to constantly hold the controller - you can just let go and you still won't drop Knuckles in the real world. Knuckles feel more light, maybe because they don't have to hold an AA battery, but I haven't measured the weight. Also Knuckles gives you full finger tracking - it really works and to me it increases presence - I like being able to move all my fingers like I can in the real world.
I just helped one dev getting Knuckles control implemented in his game (which soon will be available in the Oculus Store and on Steam) - it was extremely easy, because you can map Touch to Knuckles 1:1. Same goes for Revive. So Touch has buttons A, B, C, D, while Knuckles have 2 x A and 2 x B, but you can't see the letters inside VR and basically you have 2 round buttons on each Touch controller and the same on Knuckles - and they're placed so similarly that my brain doesn't notice any significant difference. Same goes for the thumbsticks. Main difference is the trackpad between thumstick and the round buttons - in many games the trackpad simply works like the flat round button on the left Touch - you use it to open in-game menus. In some games trackpads are used for teleport controls and add an extra dimension - like in Garden of the Sea.
The one area where differences may appear seems more to be QA, where many have gotten Knuckles with a thumbstick, where some movements don't correctly register. I haven't experienced problems with mine though. Old Touch seemed to have awesome QA. And Knuckles are more expensive - then again, old Touch did cost $350 over here two years ago, so Knuckles may in fact be cheaper
In short - even though I'm a great fan of old Touch, I like Knuckles better if I had to choose - but you're not going to get a bad VR experience no matter what you use, we're not talking about the WMR or PSVR controllers here, lol.
"Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
Just a reminder in reference to an earlier post. If everyone can avoid references to mental illness or excessive personal attacks (well, personal attacks in general), that would be great. I'll also butt out of this conversation henceforth as I don't want to stoke any fires.
I will however keep checking on posts including assessing the likelihood that any poster is returning from exile which is definitely not going to go unchecked.
Thanks.
I think it's more about your hands - seems that if you have too large or too small hands Knuckles may not fit well, even though the hand strap can be adjusted. Maybe Touch differs less from person to person, but I really don't have a problem with Knuckles. You do have to get the hand straps set correctly - not too tight and not too loose.
In Scandinavia old Touch was $350 (€300 at the official Oculus dealer in Denmark named ElGiganten, where Klodsbrik usually buy his stuff ;-) in 2017, and of course that would be a better deal if you got a lot of software to go with it (I bought the bundle back then). Right now Knuckles are priced at similar €299 in Europe, but Knuckles have no associated software (Moondust and Aperture Hand Lab are awesome, but you have to find them on Steam by yourself, and these are tech demos not real games).
I don't think "one size fits all" works when comparing old Touch and Knuckles, I'd suggest to try both for some days and see what works best for you. Knuckles have 14 days return period:
"For Valve Index Hardware (virtual reality headset, base stations and controllers) you have the right to cancel any purchase of the Hardware on Steam within 14 days from the day on which you or a third party indicated by you (other than the carrier) receives the Hardware purchased. To exercise this right, you must inform us of your decision to cancel your order by an unequivocal statement."
Source: https://store.steampowered.com/hardware_order_terms
"Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
https://store.steampowered.com/valveindex
Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
WMR: HP Reverb
https://www.proshop.dk/VR-Gamer-Briller/Oculus-Touch-Controllers/2576276
https://www.skypilot.dk/shop/oculus-rift-touch-controller-818p.html
Everything is just so much cheaper in the US, had to bleed $1250 for the Index kit over here. But you can't put a price on happiness, lol. In short - yes Touch is cheaper than Knuckles, also if you value the software, but at launch both controller types were considered expensive by many persons (also depending on your location on the planet ;-)
"Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
Full Listing
Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Valve-Index-Full-VR-Kit-Includes-Controllers-Headset-and-2-Base-Stations/173951197274
Rift isn't cheap too:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Oculus-Rift-Touch-Virtual-Reality-System/112707591973
But agreed, Index is more expensive
"Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/372073539635
Have not tried the index controllers yet but I would have been happy with just the old touch and 200 dollars cheaper but will reserve my opinion until I have tried them personally..
So do you own the new Touch Controllers for either the Rift-S or Quest? Because it is not true to say that they are negative on accuracy. My Touch controllers for Oculus Quest are incredibly accurate. And I've done some fast movements with Light Sabers in Vader Immortal. I see no difference in accuracy between Quest's controllers and my original Touch controllers for the CV1.
Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
From my personal experience I see zero difference in accuracy between old and new Touch.
There's lost tracking if too close to the headset which I think is a different issue and in practice this only happens when I scratch my face when holding the controllers. I also don't put my hands behind my back much!
Different areas of occlusion too of course. The outside in Touch are occluded when something is between them an the cameras, the inside-out Touches get occluded when one hand is between the other and the headset. Again, in practice, this only happens when a hand is too near to the headset.
I had only 2 sensors with CV1 so occlusion was happening all the time, completely impractical for anything other than forward facing and I believe people who say inside-out is better than 3 sensors.
But that's occlusion. Accuracy... no difference that I can make out.
So if I'm playing seated, my chair and desk can sometimes create spots that occluded from the cameras. With the Rift-S inside out tracking, I have none of those issues.
Of course with the base stations, you don't have to worry about your controller being too close to your face or other problems.
"Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"