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Touch vs Index controllers and why I prefer Touch

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    A new video from MRTV. The latest new version of Knuckles are still flawed, even after RMA.

    Attention: Do NOT Buy Valve Index Controllers!


    Some quotes from other Index users:

    Already refunded mine because I knew it wouldn't get fixed if Valve can't even acknowledge the problem.

    My right controller works right, but my left does not.

    Sadly retuned my full index kit for a refund. Really nice headset but the kit I received had too many quality control issues and I started wondering how long it would last. Gutted.

    3 years of R&D for controllers that cost as much as my Rift CV1 and this is the result? Great job, Gaben.

    My replacement set was worse than the ones I sent off. Very disappointed.
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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,113 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    I have held off buying the index because of the quality control issues.

    Thought I would let the dust settle a bit and see what the Cosmos offers. I hate returning things even clothes etc not sure why.

    However just to say Runes gives very detailed and honest reviews, I have found. I have no doubt they are pretty good controllers if you get a fully working pair. Valves attitude so far is concerning though.






  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,016 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
     Valves attitude so far is concerning though.
    Their "it's by design" response was flippin' embarrasing imo. I don't remember owning a gamepad in the last 5 years that wasn't clickable in all directions. 
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,470 Valuable Player
    I restarted the discussion here to ensure multi-sided and unbiased opinions, lol:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/covcjz/what_do_you_like_best_touch_or_the_index/

    Note that Linus just published this video - seems he has no problems with the controllers:



    - and this champ also seems to love the Knuckles:



    I knew of the controller problems when ordering the Index - never been a problem, seems there're much fewer posts about it on Index Reddit now for what it's worth. When you've tried the Index, the true horror isn't having a slightly unresponsive controller (in case you ever notice it - depends on your gaming preferences) - it's the horror of having to go back to lesser HMDs. Only the kids use my CV1 now, Index has more or less totally ruined any joy of using the CV1 - other than it feels like visiting a museum to see how VR was in the old days, lol. That may be hard to understand if you haven't tried the Index - but that's exactly why Linus calls Index for the next generation when you compare to the original Vive and CV1. 
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,470 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    Wildt said:
     Valves attitude so far is concerning though.
    Their "it's by design" response was flippin' embarrasing imo. I don't remember owning a gamepad in the last 5 years that wasn't clickable in all directions. 

    Fully agree - Valve needs to fix this for those who experience even the slightest issue. Seems to primarily be when you press down the thumbstick and then choose a direction (usually only one direction may not register correctly). Usually you don't push down the thumbstick to move in games with full locomotion, but it seems Pavlov and Arizona Sunshine do (the latter in order to sprint). You may also press down the thumbstick to teleport in some games - but usually that function on the Knuckles is moved to the pressure sensitive trackpad, which may to some degree explain why Valve may have overlooked the thumbstick issue, although Valve of course still needs to fix the issue. 

    In SteamVR there's a controller overview, and you can see all buttons register, when you push them - so it's extremely easy to test if Knuckles are working 100% or not. 

    If you play games, where you need to press the thumbstick down + to add a direction when pressed down (Knuckles work fine when pressing the thumbstick down - it's when you press down + select a direction that the direction may not register, because the rod inside the thumbstick may be too short when the thumbstick is tilted), of course this may be a real issue. If you don't, you may never notice any problems with Knuckles. 
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  • jabjab Posts: 203
    Nexus 6
    No arguing that the knuckles have a problem with the thumbstick, and that it should be fixed.
    But people are making it out to be a much bigger problem then it really is. If not being able to sprint in all direction in two games(?) is the biggest problem there is with the Index, I'll take that any day over all the current Rift-S problems.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,470 Valuable Player
    jab said:
    No arguing that the knuckles have a problem with the thumbstick, and that it should be fixed.
    But people are making it out to be a much bigger problem then it really is. If not being able to sprint in all direction in two games(?) is the biggest problem there is with the Index, I'll take that any day over all the current Rift-S problems.

    That's very close to my opinion. Not buying Index because of the risk of some rare movements not being registered correctly may - in my humble opinion - correspond to not buying the USS Enterprise because the small antenna 512B may not work correctly. Now, you may need that antenna to detect cloaked alien spaceships, and that could be really important depending on where you want to travel - but for many captains it really shouldn't keep them from visiting the most amazing worlds they've ever seen. 

    Billedresultat for hello worlds valve index

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    jab said:
    No arguing that the knuckles have a problem with the thumbstick, and that it should be fixed.
    But people are making it out to be a much bigger problem then it really is. If not being able to sprint in all direction in two games(?) is the biggest problem there is with the Index, I'll take that any day over all the current Rift-S problems.

    Rift-S is an HMD and Knuckles are hand-controllers. You're comparing apples and oranges. Not to mention that you may also be making the Rift-S problems out to be much bigger than they really are.

    Index has more problems than just the clicking issue. And it's easy for you to say all of that anyway when you haven't actually spent the $270 on hand-controllers that took 3 years to develop. The Rift-S didn't take 3 years and it was made by Lenova. Whereas Valve did R&D on Knuckles for 3 years straight and still couldn't get it right. So if you compare these products properly, it is quite the embarrassment.


    RuneSR2 said:
    Seems to primarily be when you press down the thumbstick and then choose a direction (usually only one direction may not register correctly).

    If that's true then there's more than one problem. What people are reporting is that... you choose a direction first, and then clicking becomes a problem.


    RuneSR2 said:
    Usually you don't push down the thumbstick to move in games with full locomotion

    And this is where I see your bias come in. There are games where you need to push down on the Thumbstick while moving in order to do things like Sprint. Such as with SkyrimVR. And you know this, yet you intentionally say things like this to pretend that there is no real problem. This is just another example of where your analysis comes off intentionally dishonest.

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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,113 Valuable Player
    edited August 13

    True not many games use this method (don't like it personally and change it where possible)  but considering the cost, I would want the issue resolved before purchasing especially as not all games allow remapping. I would also feel I always had a defective unit otherwise.

    I think we should avoid getting personal though. Calling people liars is not friendly or helpful for discussions.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    I think we should avoid getting personal though. Calling people liars is not friendly or helpful for discussions.

    I never used the word "liar" at all. I think we should avoid getting personal by accusing people of things that they did not say.

    Here's what I actually said:
    "This is just another example of where your analysis comes off intentionally dishonest."

    The analysis, not the person, "comes off" as being intentionally dishonest. And that is not the first time in this thread that we see this. Earlier Rune tried to claim that Knuckles were cheaper than original Touch, which was a blatant falsehood. And it did seem a bit intentional since Rune went out of his way to make the point using Foreign Currency instead of using U.S. Dollars to compare two products that are made by U.S. companies.

    There's more example than that. We see MRTV and other Index owners describing a problem where you can't click down "after" pushing forward on the Index's Thumbstick. But then Rune seems to go out of his way to describe the problem in reverse in order to make it seem as if it's not a real problem:
    "Seems to primarily be when you press down the thumbstick and then choose a direction"

    I am not saying Rune is a liar. But we can clearly see that on more than one occasion, he does seem to be going out of his way to alter situations in order to portray a specific type of conclusion.

    I wouldn't call it lying. I would call it either an intentional or unintentional fuzzification of the truth.
    ;)
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  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,016 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    RuneSR2 said:

    Seems to primarily be when you press down the thumbstick and then choose a direction (usually only one direction may not register correctly). Usually you don't push down the thumbstick to move in games with full locomotion, but it seems Pavlov and Arizona Sunshine do (the latter in order to sprint). . 

    Nah, it's the other way around - moving the stick fully to some direction and then pressing it. It's default in quite a lot of stick locomotion games. Just the other day I played Farpoint on PSVR with the aim controller, and I intuitively pressed the stick while walking, and lo and behold, it clicked and I started sprinting just as expected.

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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,113 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    Don’t remember naming anybody but if you think it applies to you.😀
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,470 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    Just took a picture of both - because size may really be the biggest difference and maybe sometimes size does matter :blush:



    If you got small hands, although my 11 year old son didn't experience problems, I can't help thinking that Touch might be better. 
    To me Knuckles simply are a better fit - the controllers feel like made for real men, lol - and I still can't decide if they feel more like holding guns or swords...

    No matter what people prefer I think it's awesome that Valve had the courage to launch the Index and thereby support PCVR.  
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,470 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    Wildt said:
    RuneSR2 said:

    Seems to primarily be when you press down the thumbstick and then choose a direction (usually only one direction may not register correctly). Usually you don't push down the thumbstick to move in games with full locomotion, but it seems Pavlov and Arizona Sunshine do (the latter in order to sprint). . 

    Nah, it's the other way around - moving the stick fully to some direction and then pressing it. It's default in quite a lot of stick locomotion games. Just the other day I played Farpoint on PSVR with the aim controller, and I intuitively pressed the stick while walking, and lo and behold, it clicked and I started sprinting just as expected.

    Det er en ommer Valve!

    Some are worried that Knuckles - even if they work now - may soon develop faults. I'm really not worried - I can just RMA the controller if needed. For now the kids use CV1 + Touch, while I handle the more delicate things, lol. 

    Forresten, fik at vide af ungerne, at ComKean er skiftet til Index - men han har et 2080 Ti, man burde nok begynde at lave videofilm, lol - han klager vist ikke over controller-problemer, men jeg har ikke set videoen helt igennem, den er jo lang: 




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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    Wildt said:

    Nah, it's the other way around - moving the stick fully to some direction and then pressing it. It's default in quite a lot of stick locomotion games. Just the other day I played Farpoint on PSVR with the aim controller, and I intuitively pressed the stick while walking, and lo and behold, it clicked and I started sprinting just as expected.


    Clicking down on both Thumbsticks on my XBox controller works fine as well, in every direction. And this is the controller that came with my Rift back in 2016! My son plays those Roblox games, and he clicks down on the Thumbstick while running to cycle through inventory.

    I used to play a ton of Halo years ago. And the thumstick clicks had a function (crouching and zooming).

    And that was like... 19 years ago lol
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    Don’t remember naming anybody but if you think it applies to you.

    You posted right after me, but if that's the strategy you're going to take (thinly veiled baiting)... then good luck! But so far, you are the one going off topic and making things personal. Not the first time either.
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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,113 Valuable Player
    Cheers  :)
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player

    Cheers 
    Rune enjoys your support, no doubt.
    :D

    Anyway, personal investments aside...

    Here's another great video that breaks down the issue. And contrary to what some may say, the Thumbstick issue is widespread and it does impact just about any First Person Shooter style game.


    This is one week ago, and notice this comment:
    "on mine the thumbsticks were completely screwed, takes nearly all of my grip strength to get them to register a click at certain angles, impossible to hold a click and move the sticks around. took a month to get replacements and the ones they sent are exactly the same."

    This user, as well as MRTV, received defective Knuckles even after an RMA. So using the excuse, "you can just RMA," isn't a valid way to address this widespread issue. Not to mention that RMA only works while the product is under warranty. And since Valve doesn't even consider this a valid defect, the long-term use of this product appears quite grim.

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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,470 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    I enjoy that at least one person seems to understand what I try to communicate ;) 

    I'm sure readers of this fine thread now are able to make a well-informed purchase if they consider some Knuckles or Touch, lol. 

    In the European Union you've got 2 years of warranty (or two years where you can return a product for RMA or a refund, if the product develops faults that you didn't cause), in the US you've got 1 year.

    With about 800 views and 110 comments I'm not sure that more than about 5 persons read this thread, lol - maybe it's a thread for die-hard enthusiasts who really ought to be spending more time elsewhere  B)
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  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,016 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    Just went round the house and tried the gamepads I could get my hands on, and they ALL had perfectly clickable thumbsticks in all directions:

    Xbox 360
    Xbox one
    PS4
    PSVR aim
    Nvidia Shield controller
    Steelseries Stratus XL
    Logitech Rumblepad 2 (9 years old!)
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    RuneSR2 said:
    With about 800 views and 110 comments I'm not sure that more than about 5 persons read this thread

    Possibly. I guess we can Tweet a link to the thread to help spread the message about avoiding the Index Knuckles until they are properly addressed.


    maybe it's a thread for die-hard enthusiasts who really ought to be spending more time elsewhere

    You have spent a lot of time in this thread and the Index Megathread, and you even created a reddit post in order to try to address the contents of this thread. I agree that some people should probably consider spending more time elsewhere. Overly championing Valve Index on an Oculus Forum doesn't seem like the best way to spend ones time. I could be wrong though.

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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,113 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    Runes is pretty straight in his reviews, in fact he is one of the other reasons I cancelled my index reserve. I wanted to be sure if I pay 1000 bucks, its going to be a big enough difference from my CV1 (FOV especially).  I have to buy a new graphics card also so double whammy.

    The CV1 still won out in his reviews on different technical aspects/preferences, too many times for me and that made me hesitate. So just felt that needed to be pointed out. 

    The knuckles could be a Marmite situation though (which in the UK is a sandwich spread were people either love or hate it). For our Australian mods it is like Vegemite but a much stronger taste :).


  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,470 Valuable Player
    "Best available controllers" according to IGN's review:



    The review was just posted on Index Reddit, but I can see it's from June 28 - still the reviewer loved the controllers. 
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,470 Valuable Player
    Runes is pretty straight in his reviews, in fact he is one of the other reasons I cancelled my index reserve. I wanted to be sure if I pay 1000 bucks, its going to be a big enough difference from my CV1 (FOV especially).  I have to buy a new graphics card also so double whammy.

    The CV1 still won out in his reviews on different technical aspects/preferences, too many times for me and that made me hesitate. So just felt that needed to be pointed out. 

    The knuckles could be a Marmite situation though (which in the UK is a sandwich spread were people either love or hate it).


    Thanks, CV1 will indeed still win over Index in dark games - maybe not Elite, but extremely dark horror games. In simple games like Vacation Simulator or Quest ports maybe the money on Index is wasted too - when you have no real textures (and when using high ss on CV1 making everything look rather sharp), but Index wins the rest by a very large margin. The main problem is that using the Index will make you so much aware of CV1 shortcomings (fov, SDE, res) that it may completely destroy most of the joy the CV1 currently provides. So do be careful ;-) 
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  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,231
    Wintermute
    BTW, am I missing something, if there's anything wrong with the controllers wouldn't Valve just tell the manufacturer that works for them to fix it and then ship out all future additions of the controllers with the correct pins in the announce stick to fix the issue?

    Isn't it that simple?

    Also they should throw in the box some free sweets and/or free watermelon for those of us dieting! :)
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    edited August 13

    Runes is pretty straight in his reviews

    I addressed some specific instances where Rune seems to have gone out of his way to alter the truth a bit:
    • Falsely claimed Knuckles were cheaper than original Touch, and intentionally used Foreign Currency to misrepresent the truth.
    • Described the "direction thumbclick" situation completely opposite to what is being repeatedly reported.
    • Downplayed the impact of this issue by stating that few locomotion games require Thumbstick click functionality, despite the long history of the opposite being true.

    Both Valve and Rune are being rather dismissive of this problem. And this is what you said about Valve earlier:
    "Valves attitude so far is concerning though."

    I find Rune's attitude just as concerning as you find Valve's, and for the same reasons. I have no interest in attacking Rune, as I generally enjoy his posts and have no personal grievance towards him whatsoever. But there are some concerning things he is saying, and I think it is fair to address those things. I also believe that you are being highly inconsistent by acknowledging Valve's concerning attitude while defending Rune's, when we can easily see that both attitudes are essentially identical.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,527 Valuable Player
    BTW, am I missing something, if there's anything wrong with the controllers wouldn't Valve just tell the manufacturer that works for them to fix it and then ship out all future additions of the controllers with the correct pins in the announce stick to fix the issue?

    Isn't it that simple?

    Valve has denied that this is a problem. They state that this is "by design." That's been the biggest point of criticism about this entire fiasco.

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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,470 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    BTW, am I missing something, if there's anything wrong with the controllers wouldn't Valve just tell the manufacturer that works for them to fix it and then ship out all future additions of the controllers with the correct pins in the announce stick to fix the issue?

    Isn't it that simple?

    Also they should throw in the box some free sweets and/or free watermelon for those of us dieting! :)
    Yes, it's exactly that simple - maybe Valve has a lot of stock they need to clear first, but I'm just guessing. It's only 6 weeks since Index started shipping, may take some time to fix production. 
    Valve is aware of the issue and will replace Knuckles if movements don't register - but for now you may get a replacement from the same batch.
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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,704 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    ....
    Yes, it's exactly that simple - maybe Valve has a lot of stock they need to clear first, but I'm just guessing. It's only 6 weeks since Index started shipping, may take some time to fix production. 

    VALVE have an incredibly small team on this roll out - seems more a pet project than a dedicated release. I think they are taking their sweet time focused on the core issues and the "Click-Gate" is not a priority. The more this blows up the more I think we could be about to see another SteamBox situation. 

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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,113 Valuable Player
    edited August 13
    Zenbane said:

    Runes is pretty straight in his reviews

    I addressed some specific instances where Rune seems to have gone out of his way to alter the truth a bit:
    • Falsely claimed Knuckles were cheaper than original Touch, and intentionally used Foreign Currency to misrepresent the truth.
    • Described the "direction thumbclick" situation completely opposite to what is being repeatedly reported.
    • Downplayed the impact of this issue by stating that few locomotion games require Thumbstick click functionality, despite the long history of the opposite being true.

    Both Valve and Rune are being rather dismissive of this problem. And this is what you said about Valve earlier:
    "Valves attitude so far is concerning though."

    I find Rune's attitude just as concerning as you find Valve's, and for the same reasons. I have no interest in attacking Rune, as I generally enjoy his posts and have no personal grievance towards him whatsoever. But there are some concerning things he is saying, and I think it is fair to address those things. I also believe that you are being highly inconsistent by acknowledging Valve's concerning attitude while defending Rune's, when we can easily see that both attitudes are essentially identical.
    I actually agree with you on the clickable joystick issue and valves attitude as I have previously said. Still despite my concerns I am still on the fence as it looks like the best HMD fit for me and hence possibly explaining my apparent inconsistency.

    I was defending Runes as for all intents and purposes, you have a number of times now, said he is deliberately lying when he was just expressing his opinion. You may not intend it to sound like that but that is how it's coming across and it turns a friendly debate into a rather bitter one.

    My point wasn't Runes is always right but he consistantly gives an honest opinion in his reviews to the best of his knowledge.   




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