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Touch vs Index controllers and why I prefer Touch

MowTin
Expert Trustee
When I first saw the knuckles/index controllers being demoed, I was wowed by them and couldn't wait to get my hands on them. Now that I have them, I think I prefer Touch and I'll explain why...

The Thumbsticks


1. Notice how the index is dimpled. You have a much better tactile feel and grip for your thumb. Both XBox One and PS4 controllers have this. Why mess with perfection?

2. With Touch your last two fingers, pinky and ring finger, both grip the end of the controller as you move the thumbstick giving you better leverage and control. For the Index, griping is grabbing so can't grab.

The buttons

1. Notice how the Touch has four distinctly labeled buttons A, B, Y, X just like the XBox controller or PS4 controller using symbols. Index has A, B for both. They can be mapped differently but in games, you can't get a convenient Y or X indicator for what button you need to press. 

Grabbing

1. On Touch, grab is a trigger type button with travel. You clearly feel it and know how much travel you're applying. The Index depends on pressure. If you squeeze it hard enough you'll feel some click like feedback. This creates ambiguity when holding something. If the pressure your applying drops below some threshold, you drop what you're holding. I find that I grab things I didn't intend to grab and drop things that I didn't intend to drop. 

Tracking your ring and index finger serves very little practical use in games. Game makers aren't going to want to use a feature that's exclusive to the Index. And it's hard to imagine what you would really do with those fingers in a game that would be meaningful. 

Strap

1. You have the extra hassle of slipping your hands into the traps and out of the straps. It's not a huge hassle but it feels like taking gloves off one at a time versus just putting the controller down. 

2. Because your hands are strapped in, you can't slide your thumb up and down as easily as you can with touch. 

Charging

When I finish playing with my Index I have to remember to plug the controllers in to charge. With Touch I use rechargeable batteries and I can always just swap out batteries when they get low. It takes about 3 hours to charge the Index controllers. But that's a matter of preference. Some people prefer the ps4 controllers vs xbox battery swap. 

Price

1. We all smash our controller onto the wall or a desk once in a while. So, it's better if they're cheaper to replace if you break them.

The bottom line is while they look better and have this cool looking finger tracking feature, they're not functionally better yet cost much more. And for some crazy reason, they abandoned controller conventions that have been around for decades. 

I'm not even going to discuss how bad the trackpad/d-pad thingy is because Touch doesn't have one so overall it's an advantage for the index. You can press it like a button and use it like the d-pad in the xbox and ps4 controllers. 

It may seem like I'm trashing the Index controllers but I'm not. They're a huge improvement over wands and finger tracking is cool. 
 



i7 9700k 3090 rtx   CV1, Rift-S, Index, G2
159 REPLIES 159

Zenbane
MVP
MVP

Wildt said:


SkScotchegg said:

EDIT 2: After reading their comments on that REDDIT post I have a question - Does the sticks not work at all to run? Or does it work sometimes?





I saw an article or post somewhere mentioning Valve's plan to fix it in firmware/software by simply "faking" the click function. By that I mean making 100% joystick direction trigger the sprint function. So you'd go from 90% walking speed straight to sprint by tilting that small joystick a couple of extra degrees.



Thoughts on that?
In my opinion, they are forcing everyone to re-learn the way this has functioned ever since Steam supported Gamepads. Not the smartest move. It also makes competitive play less effective. Playing a balancing act with a Thumbstick is less effective than the binary on/off switch that comes from clicking. Finding a "sweet spot" for walking/running/sprinting - especially during frantic situations - is a bit futile. Kind of like running around putting your sniper rifle on Zoom while everyone is in close quarters with their pistols.

Wildt
Consultant
Imo it's it's a pityful knee jerk attempt at minimizing the size of the refund/RMA wave.

The Workaround


Valve has updated the default Index controller input bindings such
that when a thumbstick is fully deflected in any direction, it is
considered to be fully clicked. This is only applied for apps which have
not set their own input bindings, which means mostly games which have
not yet been updated to support Index.


Users can manually enable this new setting for any app using the
SteamVR input system’s Controller Settings panel. The exact deflection
to activate the emulated clicking is fully configurable.

So it seems I forgot that it's user configurable how much you have to move the stick to trigger the fake click.

PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
WMR: HP Reverb

SkScotchegg
Expert Trustee

Zenbane said:


Wildt said:


SkScotchegg said:

EDIT 2: After reading their comments on that REDDIT post I have a question - Does the sticks not work at all to run? Or does it work sometimes?





I saw an article or post somewhere mentioning Valve's plan to fix it in firmware/software by simply "faking" the click function. By that I mean making 100% joystick direction trigger the sprint function. So you'd go from 90% walking speed straight to sprint by tilting that small joystick a couple of extra degrees.



Thoughts on that?
In my opinion, they are forcing everyone to re-learn the way this has functioned ever since Steam supported Gamepads. Not the smartest move. It also makes competitive play less effective. Playing a balancing act with a Thumbstick is less effective than the binary on/off switch that comes from clicking. Finding a "sweet spot" for walking/running/sprinting - especially during frantic situations - is a bit futile. Kind of like running around putting your sniper rifle on Zoom while everyone is in close quarters with their pistols.



Seems BS to me.

I don't like the sound of that at all.

Do you know what's crazy about all this, is that the knuckles were suppose to be these amazing revolutionary VR controllers and everyone was raving and hyping them up for ages and now they're finally here and they just seem like a major disappointment.

The Valve Index HMD sounds amazing to me, I really want it, but the controllers just don't sound good compared to Touch. And now we're all used to Touch it's hard to imagine forcing myself to try learn anything else.

I think Valve should have done the same as Microsoft and Sony where they both make Joypads that function the same way but each manufacture has their own unique style. But style without taking away from the core functions, so analogue sticks, buttons and triggers all work and feel the same way. I love both Joypads, I have PS4 joypad and Xbox One Wireless Joypad and both are fantastic, they look differant but they both work where it counts, that's the most important thing after all.

Also even the holding with each finger seems wacky to me based on YouTube videos I've seen where people are complaining about dropping things when they want to hold them and holding things when they want to drop them because the sensitivity of squeezing the controller to hold or drop something is not very easy or simple to use.

It's almost like they tried to one-up Oculus by designed the ultimate VR controller to beat Oculus's Touch controllers but knuckle controllers have fallen short by trying to be too different to a VR controller which has already proven over the past 3 years to be the industry standard.

So what's that old saying? Don't try reinvent the wheel?

The only way Touch loses is by Oculus making Touch 2.0 which they did with Rift S which aren't as good as Touch 1.0 IMO.
UK: England - Leeds - - RTX 2080 - Rift CV1 & Rift S - Make love, not war - See you in the Oasis!

Luciferous
Consultant

Zenbane said:


RuneSR2 said:

Tyriel already made that video for you:




I am asking for you to do it, so that we can see if in fact your Knuckles perform them correctly. Both thumbsticks in all directions. I can understand if you don't want to make the video, since it could potentially showcase the flaw.
😉


No need to repeat I think you made my point well enough.

Zenbane
MVP
MVP



Zenbane said:


RuneSR2 said:

Tyriel already made that video for you:




I am asking for you to do it, so that we can see if in fact your Knuckles perform them correctly. Both thumbsticks in all directions. I can understand if you don't want to make the video, since it could potentially showcase the flaw.


No need to repeat I think you made my point well enough.



No need to speak for Rune, I am sure he is capable of speaking for himself. But to address your personal concern, I asked Rune to share a video of his Knuckles and he responded with a video of someone else using their Knuckles. I feel that clarifying the request was appropriate. That seems to bother you on a personal level, which isn't my concern.

@RuneSR2 - can you address why you won't post a video of your Knuckles? Or are you going to continue letting Luciferous speak for you?
😉

Zenbane
MVP
MVP

Do you know what's crazy about all this, is that the knuckles were suppose to be these amazing revolutionary VR controllers and everyone was raving and hyping them up for ages and now they're finally here and they just seem like a major disappointment.

The Valve Index HMD sounds amazing to me, I really want it, but the controllers just don't sound good compared to Touch. And now we're all used to Touch it's hard to imagine forcing myself to try learn anything else.



Agreed. And it would be different if Knuckles are forcing people to "re-learn" for something that is better or superior. But in this case, it is all about design flaws. The problems around:
  • Glitches in finger-tracking
  • Bad thumbstick clicks
  • Properly Grabbing/Gripping objects
None of these are appropriate. Plus, I think the problem around gripping and dropping objects is going to become even more problematic over time. We just don't hear too much about it because all of the current complaints of Knuckles are completely over-shadowed by the Thumbclick problem. But if Valve ever manages to fix it, then we're going to see new problems and complaints surface.

RedRizla
Honored Visionary
While I think finger tracking is a really good idea, I just think companies need to focus on the headset itself and keeping prices down if we want more people in VR. Finger tracking and body tracking can come much later for all I care. I just want a decent VR headset that has a decent resolution for my Geforce 2080ti now, but I know not everyone owns a highend card like mine.
I think the next thing they really need to concentrate on is eye tracking. I think I'll just stick with my CV1 for now until something comes along and blows me away. There also needs to be a few more decent games available before I throw more money at another VR headset.

RuneSR2
Grand Champion

Wildt said:

Imo it's it's a pityful knee jerk attempt at minimizing the size of the refund/RMA wave.

The Workaround


Valve has updated the default Index controller input bindings such
that when a thumbstick is fully deflected in any direction, it is
considered to be fully clicked. This is only applied for apps which have
not set their own input bindings, which means mostly games which have
not yet been updated to support Index.


Users can manually enable this new setting for any app using the
SteamVR input system’s Controller Settings panel. The exact deflection
to activate the emulated clicking is fully configurable.

So it seems I forgot that it's user configurable how much you have to move the stick to trigger the fake click.



I really don't think that's going to work - Valve needs to fix this properly, and I think they'll have to. I'd never accept controllers where I couldn't perform certain movements. Even though the only game I currently play where I need to press down the thumbstick is Arizona Sunshine - that game is close to the most popular VR game and of course everything must work. The only advantage I see with software workarounds is that maybe it can buy some time, so that users like Sebastian will be sure to get new controllers that are fixed.

I'm not going to spend time making videos or taking pictures of me pressing buttons on the Knuckles - or filming myself sprint in Arizona Sunshine. Instead I'd suggest that Zenbane orders a kit and personally try the Knuckles - maybe the real world is completely different from what you make up in your own mind. 

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

Zenbane
MVP
MVP

RuneSR2 said:
 Even though the only game I currently play where I need to press down the thumbstick is Arizona Sunshine - that game is close to the most popular VR game and of course everything must work.


What makes you say that Arizona Sunshine is "close to the most popular VR game" ?? Sounds like another one of those fictitious scenarios you invent in order to "over sell" Valve Index.

According to this article, Arizona Sunshine doesn't even make the list for 2019:
https://www.pcmag.com/feature/362099/the-best-vr-games-for-2019/27

I stopped playing Arizona Sunshine a long time ago. It was fun when VR was still new, but I would never recommend that anyone spend all that money on the Valve Index just to play Arizona Sunshine. LMAO

That game doesn't even require 5 finger tracking. What a waste.

I'm not going to spend time making videos or taking pictures of me pressing buttons on the Knuckles

So you'll spend days and weeks arguing that your Knuckles work, but won't take a few minutes to prove it? What a bad excuse. I will assume then that your Knuckles are flawed and you are too invested in them emotionally to make a video to prove otherwise. So yeah, keep spending days arguing otherwise instead of taking a few moments to make a video to prove that your Knuckles actually work.

Luciferous
Consultant
Well I think that wraps it up for me another thread turned sour. Lock up on the way out.