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Were the critics right: Is VR just a Fad/Gimmick?

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  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,809 Valuable Player
    No, VR is the Future
    falken76 said:
    I don't think it's a fad or gimmick, I just think it's way too expensive.  That doesn't mean it's over priced, I think people are too damn broke in this day and age, they just can't afford it.  Quest might change that, but I think the unit is kind of weak right now.  Limited by current tech of course, but if this EVER gets into the $200 range for portable, I think it'll blow up.  Almost everyone on this forum represents an enthusiast, we don't represent the norm. I think 4 people I've showed my CV1 to went out and bought it.  There are dozens of people that I've shown it to that love it and want one, but they can't afford it.
    My brother a long time ago gave up on PC gaming. He got tired of having to buy new hardware every few years and the high cost. So cost is still a big issue. 

    People buy iPhones for $1k but most of them are on a payment plan and your smartphone is a much more integral part of your life than a VR HMD.

    Another issue is space. You need space for VR. A lot of people have absolutely no space left. My coworker doesn't even have enough space for a monitor so he can plug in his laptop and work more comfortably. 

    Another issue is motion sickness. When you demo VR you're limited to teleportation because new users are prone to motion sickness. And game development is slowed down because devs are afraid of making people sick. 

    Another issue is social. My nephew always wants to play with my VR. Sometimes he's with my other nephews but they're bored while he's playing and they want to play something together. VR is isolating. You're blocked off from the outside world. If you're playing on the couch on a console you can still interact with people. Of course, when there are more people in VR it will become a new way of connecting with people. 

    Despite some of these obstacles, VR is still the future. 
    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 4,083 Valuable Player
    No, VR is the Future
    Zenbane said:
    Nacaryus said:
    its more than 3 years passed since cv1 has launced and the only title spoken of is Lone Echo..This is not normal, its lack of creativity and resource managment and ideas ..the other title is Resident Evil 7 and PC VR wont bee seeing it, at least oculus should have made a game that at least looked and played like it..But no we got defector which we already forgot about..i enjoyed red matter more than defector lol
    Exactly! We still bring up Lone Echo, and some of the greater expectations are not being met (such as Defector).

    Glad I'm not the only one who sees these things!
    I still have not bought lone echo. To suggest that is the only real VR title of note is crazy talk imo.
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • Nekto2Nekto2 Posts: 270
    Nexus 6
    Yes, VR is a Fad/Gimmick
    Zenbane said:
    Most of the VR Experiences are still designed from the perspective of traditional "flat" interactions. We simply moved the camera from a flat screen to your face. But VR allows us to think in ways far beyond basic human interaction. VR's strengths are that it is "limitless" since we can start to interact with things just by looking at them, in combination to what we do with our heads, hands, and voice.
    Yes. VR is a gimmick! ;)
    And I could prove it.

     

    First: You are using flat 2D forum software to write with topic! (not a VR-forum!)

    Second: You are using flat 2D keyboard to write all your posts here (not a VR-3D-keyboard!)

     

    That means you are not believing in VR! You are not using VR for ordinary tasks. Until then it will be a gimmick :D

     

    Let's start a competition!

    Will any one create a VR-keyboard (VR-text-input) to allow entering text twice as fast as with hardware keyboard?

     

    It should not be voice recognition. It should replace hardware keyboard for chating, programming etc.

  • Nekto2Nekto2 Posts: 270
    Nexus 6
    Yes, VR is a Fad/Gimmick
    Zenbane said:
    ... it did take many years before the Telephone became the Smart Phone
    You are so wrong that you have found an answer ;)

    Telephone is not an ancestor of SmartPhone. SmartPhone is portable personal computer with integrated devices like phone, photo/video camera, audio, gps etc.

     

    Do you remember first personal portable computers without integrated phone, camera, gps etc... ? They were not popular at all!

     

    That means you need to integrate a lot of other useful devices into VR headsets before it will be so popular as a smartphones.

    You should have toothbrush, flashlight, laser pointer and other things integrated into HMD!

    :D

    ... and phone, camera, gps, copter controll, smart home contol, navigator, music box.

  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,809 Valuable Player
    No, VR is the Future
    Zenbane said:
    @MowTin if you start looking at his most recent predictions, Abrash is focusing more on Augmented Reality and Mixed Reality as the future that this technology needs. He believes that VR and AR will converge. Which does sort of prove that VR today, in its current form, may turn out to be more of a fad/gimmick.

    @Zenbane, VR and AR have already converged. I can sit in my office and see my office through the Rift-S and see all kinds of windows at the same time. The same is true with the Quest. Of course, future versions will have even more AR abilities. That wouldn't make the early iterations fads/gimmicks just because they had fewer features. 
    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • SkScotcheggSkScotchegg Posts: 1,269
    Wintermute
    No, VR is the Future
    Nacaryus said:
    MowTin said:
    Nacaryus said:
    i am really pissed off on the lack of "PROPER" content for VR gaming..Quest is a good idea to spread VR but now we see already released games ported for Quests, and still no proper game for high end VR even moths after release of the new headset..

    VR Headsets are all around, this and that, but where are the games ffs, all we have is early access stupid shooting fests, and yes beatsaber and space pirate trainer are stupid too..Not enough characters and stories to keep VR excited. Yes it was "WOW" when i first saw the Oculus intro but you get get used to even great sex..

    We need good games with good stories and good characters, and i think Sony gets it

    We're starting to get "proper content." Asgard's Wrath, Stormlands, Respawn's new game, The Walking Dead, Espire-1, Valve's 3 flagship games, Lone Echo 2. Vertigo 2, Vader Immortal series. 

    I remember back in the early days of PC gaming, there would only be about 2 or 3 big titles per year that I cared about. Duke Nukem 3D, Doom, Doom II, Doom 3, Quake games and Half-Life games and their mods were the staple diet of PC gaming.
    We are not in early days, we are in the days of high competition, fast advances and a lot of potential gamer base around..Can you believe how they screwed up with Marvel Ultimate Allience ?!?!?!? No body is talking about it now, 

    its more than 3 years passed since cv1 has launced and the only title spoken of is Lone Echo..This is not normal, its lack of creativity and resource managment and ideas ..the other title is Resident Evil 7 and PC VR wont bee seeing it, at least oculus should have made a game that at least looked and played like it..But no we got defector which we already forgot about..i enjoyed red matter more than defector lol

    I get where you guys are coming from and even though I have enjoyed a lot of VR games over the past 3 years I feel like a lot of the ones we got at the very beginning of this ride were the best ones. Such as Lone Echo, Robo Recall, Wilson's Heart, Arizona Sunshine, Superhot, Space Pirate Trainer, Dead & Burred, Onward. I feel like those 8 games were the best VR games we got so far.

    And then later on down the line I'd add Beatsaber, Audica and In Death to that line up. So that's 11 top quality games for me. I'm not saying that's the only games I enjoyed because there's many more but those are the only ones I still really play. Most weeks I just play Beatsaber/Audica/In Death, Onward.

    I can't play Creed anymore because Rift S tracking doesn't allow it.  :(

    The only games I know of on the horizon are Stormland, Asgard's Wrath and Undead Citadel. It feels like we've been waiting forever for them to come out. Lets hope they all turn out to be amazing games with replayability!
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  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,809 Valuable Player
    No, VR is the Future
    The only games I know of on the horizon are Stormland, Asgard's Wrath and Undead Citadel. It feels like we've been waiting forever for them to come out. Lets hope they all turn out to be amazing games with replayability!

    You forgot The Walking Dead and Respawn's AAA shooter. There's also Boneworks and Valve's promised flagship games. Beyond that we have Vertigo 2 and Lone Echo 2. 
    i7 6700k 2080ti   Rift-S, Index
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,612 Valuable Player
    edited September 20
    Undecided
    Nekto2 said:
    You are so wrong that you have found an answer 

    Telephone is not an ancestor of SmartPhone.


    You are so wrong but you said it with such fervor! lol

    Plenty of historical sources available. But here's a nice huge graphic that goes through the Evolution of the Telephone to the Smartphone.


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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,612 Valuable Player
    edited September 20
    Undecided
    MowTin said:
    @Zenbane, VR and AR have already converged. I can sit in my office and see my office through the Rift-S and see all kinds of windows at the same time.
    Not quite. Check the Abrash video that you provided. There is a clear difference in merely having a Passthrough camera and the actual convergence of AR/VR. I mean... you presented Abrash's words as an argument, and now you're arguing against Abrash?
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  • bigmike20vtbigmike20vt Posts: 4,083 Valuable Player
    edited September 20
    No, VR is the Future
    Nekto2 said:
    Zenbane said:
    Most of the VR Experiences are still designed from the perspective of traditional "flat" interactions. We simply moved the camera from a flat screen to your face. But VR allows us to think in ways far beyond basic human interaction. VR's strengths are that it is "limitless" since we can start to interact with things just by looking at them, in combination to what we do with our heads, hands, and voice.
    Yes. VR is a gimmick! ;)
    And I could prove it.

     

    First: You are using flat 2D forum software to write with topic! (not a VR-forum!)

    Second: You are using flat 2D keyboard to write all your posts here (not a VR-3D-keyboard!)

     

    That means you are not believing in VR! You are not using VR for ordinary tasks. Until then it will be a gimmick :D

     

    Let's start a competition!

    Will any one create a VR-keyboard (VR-text-input) to allow entering text twice as fast as with hardware keyboard?

     

    It should not be voice recognition. It should replace hardware keyboard for chating, programming etc.

    In which case cars are a gimmick because I still walk to the shops most of the time. ;)
    VR is currently the only medium to allow me to fly IN my space ship in ED and NMS. It allows me to experience being in a post apocalyptic world in fallout, or a cyber punk city in technolust (another of my ever expanding list of unplayed games), or race in an F1 car.

    Once I did all that in VR I found it practical impossible to get immersed in such games on an even very large flat screen.

    VR may be a gimmick or a fad to you and to zenbane but to me  it is irreplacible. IF VR fails this time around I think the games I play will be radically altered going forwards.

    Edit of course I fell into the trap of definitions of gimmick and fad... If we can't even agree on what a fad is then we are already starting badly :D 
    Fiat Coupe, gone. 350Z gone. Dirty nappies, no sleep & practical transport incoming. Thank goodness for VR :)
  • RattyUKRattyUK Posts: 967
    3Jane
    Undecided
    VR is amazing, even with the limited HMD's we have today, but we have the circular 'not enough HMD's adopted to make AAA deveopers confident Vs No AAA software to sell HMD's' which doesn't seem to want to go away any time soon.

    Maybe Nvidia/AMD/Intel will bring out a blockbuster GPU that doesn't put off consumers with less disposable income and HMD's get Foveated rendering and eye tracking/good resolution at an attractive price (and untethered gets good hardware too) so takeup increases to a level that developers would accept...

    As it stands, I like what we have today, even if PCVR is certainly not a budget option...  but wouldn't it be nice if....
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  • Nekto2Nekto2 Posts: 270
    Nexus 6
    edited September 21
    Yes, VR is a Fad/Gimmick
    Zenbane said:

    You are so wrong but you said it with such fervor! lol

    Plenty of historical sources available. But here's a nice huge graphic that goes through the Evolution of the Telephone to the Smartphone.

    This graphics has no portable personal computers (2003 and earlier). Will you pretend that there were none? :)

    CRT displays and LCD displays solve same need to show image, but they are totally different devices. Same with electronic "phone" and analog old phones.

    Electronic phones were changed to personal computers after it was possible to install own applications on it. But the first electronic phone is not a phone actually.

    First it was Java apps, but then it was iPhone, WinMobile and Android. Those are computers with phone and camera modules. And the "phone" is an application inside those computers. ;)

     

    Still the main argument is: VR HMD should have some real world devices to solve real world needs. Al least it should work as bluetooth headphone for smartphone. Or better photo/video camera with addition of better photo editing.

  • NacaryusNacaryus Posts: 228
    Nexus 6
    Undecided
    Zenbane said:
    Nacaryus said:
    its more than 3 years passed since cv1 has launced and the only title spoken of is Lone Echo..This is not normal, its lack of creativity and resource managment and ideas ..the other title is Resident Evil 7 and PC VR wont bee seeing it, at least oculus should have made a game that at least looked and played like it..But no we got defector which we already forgot about..i enjoyed red matter more than defector lol
    Exactly! We still bring up Lone Echo, and some of the greater expectations are not being met (such as Defector).

    Glad I'm not the only one who sees these things!
    I still have not bought lone echo. To suggest that is the only real VR title of note is crazy talk imo.
    i say its the only VR title worth still talked about..Marvel UA was a real VR title but forgotten, Arktika is lol trash, Dead and Buried games wasted resources, edge of no where and wilson's heart were i think good games and star trek would be awesome if it had solid single player but like Marvel UA died out quickly
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,112 Valuable Player
    No, VR is the Future
    Nacaryus said:
    Zenbane said:
    Nacaryus said:
    its more than 3 years passed since cv1 has launced and the only title spoken of is Lone Echo..This is not normal, its lack of creativity and resource managment and ideas ..the other title is Resident Evil 7 and PC VR wont bee seeing it, at least oculus should have made a game that at least looked and played like it..But no we got defector which we already forgot about..i enjoyed red matter more than defector lol
    Exactly! We still bring up Lone Echo, and some of the greater expectations are not being met (such as Defector).

    Glad I'm not the only one who sees these things!
    I still have not bought lone echo. To suggest that is the only real VR title of note is crazy talk imo.
    i say its the only VR title worth still talked about..Marvel UA was a real VR title but forgotten, Arktika is lol trash, Dead and Buried games wasted resources, edge of no where and wilson's heart were i think good games and star trek would be awesome if it had solid single player but like Marvel UA died out quickly
    I really enjoyed arktika. I played through it twice.  There is an old expression: different strokes for different folks.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,612 Valuable Player
    edited September 21
    Undecided
    In which case cars are a gimmick because I still walk to the shops most of the time.

    Not an accurate analogy. I am comparing how VR is used globally across many sectors, not how cars work at the individual level.

    VR may be a gimmick or a fad to you and to zenbane but to me  i

    I never said that I believe it is a fad or gimmick. My first post makes the topic quite clear. Some people in this thread get it, others... not so much!

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,612 Valuable Player
    edited September 21
    Undecided
    Nekto2 said:
    This graphics has no portable personal computers (2003 and earlier). Will you pretend that there were none? :)

    I am talking about the evolution of the Telephone to the Smart Phone, which is well documented in history. Telephones did not have graphics in the beginning, but they do now. Your question doesn't make much sense in this context.

    Electronic phones were changed to personal computers

    This is not true. Personal Computers can still do much more than a smart phone.

    First it was Java apps, but then it was iPhone, WinMobile and Android.
    That is not an accurate depiction of the evolution of the Telephone to the Smart Phone.

    And the "phone" is an application inside those computers.
    How phone calls are made has definitely evolved (e.g. IP Phones), but that only further proves my point. There's no use in arguing historical facts.

    Here's another good source:

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  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,112 Valuable Player
    No, VR is the Future
    ImZenbane said:
    Nekto2 said:
    This graphics has no portable personal computers (2003 and earlier). Will you pretend that there were none? :)

    I am talking about the evolution of the Telephone to the Smart Phone, which is well documented in history. Telephones did not have graphics in the beginning, but they do now. Your question doesn't make much sense in this context.

    Electronic phones were changed to personal computers

    This is not true. Personal Computers can still do much more than a smart phone.

    First it was Java apps, but then it was iPhone, WinMobile and Android.
    That is not an accurate depiction of the evolution of the Telephone to the Smart Phone.

    And the "phone" is an application inside those computers.
    How phone calls are made has definitely evolved (e.g. IP Phones), but that only further proves my point. There's no use in arguing historical facts.

    Here's another good source:

    Yes that is a fact. The brick cell phone (I had one)  developed into smart phones like the flintstones developed into modern man.
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,112 Valuable Player
    No, VR is the Future
    It actually started with the land line phone
  • saami81saami81 Posts: 164
    Art3mis
    inovator said:
    It actually started with the land line phone
    I still have landline to my house, but not working landline phone anymore. 95% of all landlines have been cutted down in my city, so im not sure how long this will last.

    It works too. I can still buy up 8mb internet on landline.

    Sorry for off-topic.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,612 Valuable Player
    Undecided
    The first phone was the String Phone, in 1667.



    I would argue that this is the first Internet! lol
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  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,194 Valuable Player
    Techy111 said:
    I've never been offered one of those before... and it's strangely tempting
    Well before you do, please listen to this uplifting moustache song ;)


    Love that movie.
  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 5,020 Volunteer Moderator
    Undecided
    Zenbane said:
    The first phone was the String Phone, in 1667.



    I would argue that this is the first Internet! lol
    Looks like a gimmicky fad, that thing will never catch on!
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  • FuseyUKFuseyUK Posts: 2
    NerveGear
    No, VR is the Future
    Firstly I would not describe VR as mainstream. It is still in it's developing stage as it still does not have a standard implementation.

    The future of VR will not happen until the limitations that hold it back are removed. Things like being cordless, having inside-out tracking, having processing power to rival AAA PC games. Having a must have AAA game that is better played in VR than anything else and lastly a price point that is affordable to everyone.

    This doesn't exist today. The closest we have is the Oculus Quest, but even that is not powerful enough to deliver the games that we really want to play (eg. Skyrim or PC quality VR games). It is going to take a few more generations until we get there.

    Right now I am on a Rift CV1 and I look around and there is not a single headset out there that ticks all of the boxes above.

    It would be amazing if a real Rift 2.0 was announced at Oculus Connect 6. Better screens, inside out tracking, wireless option, mechanical IPD.. It just doesnt exist at this time..
  • motorsepmotorsep Posts: 1,445 Oculus Start Member
    No, VR is the Future
    FuseyUK said:
    Firstly I would not describe VR as mainstream. It is still in it's developing stage as it still does not have a standard implementation.
    Why do you need standard implementation to be mainstream? Consoles are anything but standard and yet, mainstream.
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,112 Valuable Player
    No, VR is the Future
    motorsep said:
    FuseyUK said:
    Firstly I would not describe VR as mainstream. It is still in it's developing stage as it still does not have a standard implementation.
    Why do you need standard implementation to be mainstream? Consoles are anything but standard and yet, mainstream.
    It's simple math. Millions and millions of users make an item mainstream.
  • motorsepmotorsep Posts: 1,445 Oculus Start Member
    No, VR is the Future
    inovator said:
    motorsep said:
    FuseyUK said:
    Firstly I would not describe VR as mainstream. It is still in it's developing stage as it still does not have a standard implementation.
    Why do you need standard implementation to be mainstream? Consoles are anything but standard and yet, mainstream.
    It's simple math. Millions and millions of users make an item mainstream.
    Which still has nothing to do with "standard". It's just "price + content + ease of use" satisfying the demand. VR will get there eventually, unless Facebook throws in the towel. 
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,765 Valuable Player
    No, VR is the Future
    Well ones thing for sure and that is that VR has currently reached it's first big hurdle. The next big steps VR needs to take is having higher resolutions displays and eye tracking without the need for an expensive graphics cards. I've seen first hand what higher resolutions can do for VR since purchasing the HP Reverb, and I can say for certain higher resolutions make a big difference to VR.
    Without higher resolutions displays some people are just going to complain that VR is to blurry and I believe it will only be niche if it continues like this for a number of years. I believe we will only see mass adoption when we can say VR is like being in a 2D monitor at 1080p. The HP Reverb is getting closer to monitor like resolution and that's why I consider it the next step up.
  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,809 Valuable Player
    No, VR is the Future
    FuseyUK said:

    It would be amazing if a real Rift 2.0 was announced at Oculus Connect 6. Better screens, inside out tracking, wireless option, mechanical IPD.. It just doesnt exist at this time..

    And the only reason it doesn't exist now is price. We have all the technology but it's just not affordable yet. It will inevitably become affordable. 
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  • MowTinMowTin Posts: 1,809 Valuable Player
    No, VR is the Future
    @Zenbane is a great contributor and I really respect him but this thread is a real downer. If it wasn't him posting it, I would think it's a troll thread. Those of us who support VR are sick of all the "VR is dead" and "VR is a fad" crap we see all the time from VR haters. 

    The idea that VR is a fad or gimmick is just absurd. It's the natural evolution of how we interact with media. The only question is when. In 2000 there was a dotcom bubble because many companies bet on the Internet too soon. That didn't mean it was a fad and everyone understood that it was inevitable. But nobody knew the timing. 

    It's the same with VR. I just don't think there is much of a rational argument to the contrary. Does anyone seriously believe that 20 years from now, there's no such thing as VR games? It's just the natural evolution of the medium. An obvious move towards greater immersion than what a computer screen can provide.

    We're all early adopters. We all want things to move forward faster. We're all impatient.

    This thread seems more like the expression of frustration by a VR enthusiast who wants things to move ahead more quickly.  

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 14,612 Valuable Player
    edited September 21
    Undecided
    MowTin said:
    @Zenbane is a great contributor and I really respect him but this thread is a real downer.

    Sure it's a downer, but it is something that I feel comfortable discussing. And other posters in this thread seem to understand the situation and have made some great commentary. If anyone feels that this conversation is too negative, then the natural thing to do would be to refrain from reading and participating. I have no problem discussing some hard truths about things I have invested in.

    The idea that VR is a fad or gimmick is just absurd.

    Dismissing the critics outright in light of everything I presented in the original post is far more absurd. You really haven't made any compelling arguments. Most, if not all, of what you have stated is rehashed rebuttals going as far back as 2016 when the first fad/gimmick predictions began. So to me that's another sign that things are not progressing well if we are now, in 2019, using monotonous rhetoric that can be found in 2016.


    We're all early adopters.

    A great example of an old and over-used 2016 rebuttal. We're entering 2020, VR itself is no longer in "early adoption" phase. First generation hardware can be seen as early adoption (e.g. Oculus Quest, Vive Cosmos), but the industry and software ecosystem as a whole is no longer early adoption.


    This thread seems more like the expression of frustration by a VR enthusiast who wants things to move ahead more quickly. 

    Nah. Your response seems like that of someone who is frustrated by the conversation and can't really come up with a strong argument. So instead you want to make it more personal. However, if you read my first post, I cite sources over the years who are critiquing VR in this manner. This isn't me expressing any personal views, this is me observing the critics and the industry and posing a question. So far you seem to have struggled understanding the topic and intent.

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