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HTC VIVE Cosmos has launched - specs, reviews and impressions

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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    I think Cosmos is working now ;)

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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,909 Valuable Player
    HTC says in a recent blog post that the update looks to improve low-light tracking in Cosmos, and do it with better prediction during fast movements. The company is also aiming to reduce tracking jitter, something that we noticed even in optimal lighting conditions.

    https://www.roadtovr.com/htc-update-vive-cosmos-tracking-october/
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  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 1,691
    Project 2501
    edited October 2019
    RuneSR2 said:
    I think Cosmos is working now ;)


    Na, who needs Revive when you have dual VR headsets and one includes a Rift cv1 w/2.0 SS, lol!

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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,243 Valuable Player


     :D:D:D:p
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    TomCgcmfc said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    I think Cosmos is working now ;)


    Na, who needs Revive when you have dual VR headsets and one includes a Rift cv1 w/2.0 SS, lol!
    Try Lucky's Tale on the Cosmos res 200%, much better than CV1 ss 2.0? ;) But yes, having CV1 ss 2.0 is still awesome.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,243 Valuable Player
    One of the big benefits of the Rift S is that when they increased the resolution and dropped down the refresh rate it means that you can supersample at the higher resolution at the same rate without any drop in performance
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 1,691
    Project 2501
    snowdog said:
    One of the big benefits of the Rift S is that when they increased the resolution and dropped down the refresh rate it means that you can supersample at the higher resolution at the same rate without any drop in performance
    Ya, the only thing that turned me off with the Rift S was the touch controller grip/release lag.  Taking the battery covers off seemed to fix this most of the time.  I presume that's all fixed now?

    Meanwhile, back at the Cosmos ranch....... all is not beer and skittles, lol!

    As much as I love my new Cosmos with all my Flight and Racing sims, the rest of my experience is not so good.  The Cosmos tracking with all archery and slingshot games makes these almost unplayable, for me anyway.  Hopefully, like similar early tracking issues the Rift S had, this will get sorted out soon. 

    Also, I'm not very happy with the Cosmos controller's compatibility issues.  Most Steam and Viveport games, even ones that say they are Cosmos ready, either do not work, or treats them like the older Vive wands which makes for a lot of thumbstick clicking.  Since the Cosmos controllers are basically the same layout as the Rift touch controllers I don't understand why these cannot be made to work the same??? 

    At this point, all the Cosmos games I've installed off my free Viveport subscription are Oculus Rift compatible and I have found that they all play much better with my good old Rift cv1 w/2x sensors and a little extra SS (1.5-2.0, depending on the game).

    Also, while Vive support have been very responsive, they have yet to offer me any useful advice/fixes so far.  All I seem to be doing is generating and sending them a lot of logfiles.  For some reason these take a lot longer to generate/send these than the Oculus Rift ones.  Even with my very good gaming PC it takes ~30 minutes to generate/send these.

    Hopefully things will improve with the Cosmos in the near future but for now I'm starting to question how good an investment my Cosmos is, esp. given the fact that for the same price I could have bought a  Rift S and Quest, lol!  BTW, the Valve Index is still not available in Australia (except from silly cost US shipping companies) nor do I want to have to go with Valve Lighthouses.

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  • dburnedburne Posts: 2,997 Valuable Player
    TomCgcmfc said:
    snowdog said:
    One of the big benefits of the Rift S is that when they increased the resolution and dropped down the refresh rate it means that you can supersample at the higher resolution at the same rate without any drop in performance
    Ya, the only thing that turned me off with the Rift S was the touch controller grip/release lag.  Taking the battery covers off seemed to fix this most of the time.  I presume that's all fixed now?

    It must be I guess as I am not experiencing that, though I don't think I ever really did either.
    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 636
    Neo
    edited October 2019
    RuneSR2 said:
    TomCgcmfc said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    I think Cosmos is working now ;)


    Na, who needs Revive when you have dual VR headsets and one includes a Rift cv1 w/2.0 SS, lol!
    Try Lucky's Tale on the Cosmos res 200%, much better than CV1 ss 2.0? ;) But yes, having CV1 ss 2.0 is still awesome.
    I just did the GearVR mod on OG Vive and the moment i put it on it was quite clear that Oculus and Vive could right now still be selling the CV1 and Vive, but with a slightly revised version with one simple revision, more uptodate lense, because the minute you eliminate the god ray issue completly, these HMD become so much more, regardless of res per eye or sde, once the god rays are gone it is astonishing just how much is being missed because of the GR issue, and i can 't imagine how glorious the CV1 would look with similar lense as i can't emphasis just what a difference two little lense have made on almost 4 year old produced HMD, it i amazing, and i can only weep when i think of what the CV1 headset with these lense and the great touch controllers would be like to have, it would be a amazing HMD. :'(


  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 713
    Trinity
    i bet you they just raised the alpha channel value to let the tracking be better.
  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 1,691
    Project 2501
    i bet you they just raised the alpha channel value to let the tracking be better.
    Maybe, I don't know.  All I can say is that their latest beta 1.07 update did not improve anything for me.

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  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 713
    Trinity
    TomCgcmfc said:
    i bet you they just raised the alpha channel value to let the tracking be better.
    Maybe, I don't know.  All I can say is that their latest beta 1.07 update did not improve anything for me.

    having looked at the controllers i see a lot of the same color, white, a lot of black, and white hands holding the controller. maybe the white color is indistinguishable. maybe if you took some other colr, red in particular, and either tied it to or taped it on, to both controllers, the red would serve as a distinguishing mark the rest of the tracking sw could use as a marker.

    like as seen in the attached image, something red and noticeable.


  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 1,691
    Project 2501
    edited October 2019
    Thanks mate I’ll give that a go. I’ve got lots of different colored wide nyties I can try.  I’ll have a look through my pass through and see what seems to give the best offsetting contrasts.  Cheers.

    Edit; tried this but it did not seem to make any differences. Like the Rift S I suspect that only software will fix this.  Thanks anyway.

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  • kojackkojack Posts: 5,949 Volunteer Moderator
    Covering up tracking marker patterns with unexpected objects (like red tape) is far more likely to break tracking rather than assist.
    The tracking system of the Cosmos isn't like photogrammetry where you add more detail and it can make out the geometry better, it is explicitly looking for a specific pattern. Anything that changes that is going to obscure the pattern from being recognised.


  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 1,691
    Project 2501
    Ya you’re probably right.  One thing I noticed when using the pass through cameras to look for color contrast was that the camera exposes seemed to change quite a bit when just moving my head just a little bit. I’m not sure but the gain on their auto exposure may have something to do with the inconsistency of the tracking.  Who knows?

    All I do know is that sometimes being a beta tester really is not all that much fun, lol!

    I’m starting to wonder if I might have been better off spending a little more for the Vive Pro McLaren version with its 2.0 base stations.  This would only cost me $aud 700 more, lol!  Then I could decide later to look at an Index headset if it ever becomes available in Australia.

    Or maybe just ride the beta Cosmos train.  Maybe just park it and wait for Vive to release the outside in tracking module early (?) next year and buy base stations and controllers then.

    if it sounds like I don’t know exactly how to proceed, that’s because I don’t.

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  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,564 Valuable Player
    edited October 2019
    I wonder still why they went this route instead of blanking pattern like we see on other devices and use a camera adjustable color and IR filter. This way they could increase refresh rates of the cameras to match that for their pass-through while still being able to find IR light for the tracking. This way you could in theory have best of both color and black/white IR tracking. At least then they could save a ton of power on the controller end from 2-4hrs to maybe 7-9hrs.
  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 713
    Trinity
    edited October 2019
    oh well.

    maybe they are clamping the controller to some screen size. then when it reaches the side of the clamp and then goes the other way there is a value it has to move before it starts moving the other way.

    this would make the controller miscalculate the players actual position since they moved past where the tracking should start once they trigger the controller should start moving again.

    maybe have the controller start to move once the controller is in the tracked area as if there was no clamp. with no clamp theres no delay..

    .or maybe its the wrong script execution order, rearranging the order scripts are run might fix some wobble.
  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 1,691
    Project 2501
    edited October 2019
    UPDATE:

    I've decided to keep my Cosmos and ride out its current issues (mainly tracking and controller compatibility).  At least for the next month or two, lol!

    In the meantime I only intend to use my Cosmos for flight and racing sims.  These all work well without Cosmos controllers and all look quite a bit better than with my Rift.  I'll  continue to use my good old Oculus Rift cv1 w/2x sensors for everything else.  Fortunately most Viveport Infinity games (I've got 14 months free subscription btw) work well with my Rift and, with a little (1.5-2.0) super sampling, also look almost as good.

    When and iff the Cosmos controller's tracking gets as good as my Rift I'll let you all know.

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  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 1,691
    Project 2501
    Another Update 

    Vive issued another software update 1.0.7.1 yesterday.  Believe it or not this has actually improved its tracking.  Still not the Rift S inside out Gold standard but getting there.  Maybe about 90% so far.

    Custom built gaming desktop; i9 9900k (water cooled) oc to 5ghz, gtx 1080 ti (from my old AGA), 32 gb 3000hz ram, 1 tb ssd, 4 tb hdd.  Asus  ROG Maximus xi hero wifi mb, StarTech 4 port/4 controller sata powered usb3.0 pcie card, Asus VG248QE 1080p 144hz gaming monitor, Oculus Rift cv1 w/2x sensors, Vive Pro, Vive Cosmos, Vive Wireless.

  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,909 Valuable Player
    It must be hard for the HTC VR team to play catch-up with the work OculusVR Texas and Carmack have achieved!
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  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 1,691
    Project 2501
    edited October 2019
    kevinw729 said:
    It must be hard for the HTC VR team to play catch-up with the work OculusVR Texas and Carmack have achieved!
    Ya, they probably have a little catching up to do, lol!

    I thought this comment on another forum from a Developer was pretty interesting (although I'm not sure how accurate) and provided a little insight as to where Vive may be heading.  This was in answer to a jerk who was bagging HTC who said that the Cosmos will never work because of the type of cameras installed.  This developer corrected him on this and you can read his comments below;

    That is not completely correct... Valve base stations were developer by HTC, in fact, are the same Light Boxes. That´s not better technology and is not more accurate. In fact, can be worst or slower in some cases. Inside Out Tracking is the Tracking that Windows Media, Oculus Rift S and Cosmos have... and Cosmos maybe by far the best of all... The worst is Windows Media Tracking as is based on only two cameras on the front of the HMDs, Rift S and Quest owns the most accurate tracking now, but only because they improved it over time.. on release it has almost the same problems that Cosmos had low light, occlusion, etc, but with the usage data and users reports Oculus managed to improve it and make it more accurate... But it is the worst technology based on B/W cameras and IR LEDs on controllers... because they track points on the room, mostly like the external light boxes...

    Why Cosmos RGB cameras are better? Well, because they allow you to not only track your controllers but your environment at the same time, providing us later with AR or XR advantages... This is why on the Cosmos Room Setup you scan objects with your view and if you activate the passthough option to show objetcs you will see the green contours of the detected objects on your room, not all of them, just the one used by tracking.... this will allow later developers to integrate your environment to the gameplay, for example if you have a sofa on the game you could see a sofa or stones that you can´t walk over hehe, there is place for a lot of nice things

    Check a sample of XR here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Fl_VY-41fThn02083iA5yEwRe-Z2bqpG

    And here an example of 3D environment scanning, https://youtu.be/94uKZCV5fH4

    Those things are only possible right now with VIVE PRO and Cosmos, thanks to their front RGB cameras.

    So as a developer, I suggest you to have patience with HTC, they are going on the right direction on VR and AR but in order to further develop this technology our community help is required, as developers need our feedback and data, to improve the code not our hate!!

    --end of copied comment---


    As an aside, here's a little Halloween present c/o Cosmos;


    BTW it's worth look at this lady's Tilt Brush paintings on her (Anna Dream Brush) channel;

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKEfXMw7538wvuulXy_RNcQ

    I think I need to go see her for some Tilt Brush lessons, lol!


    Edit; How do I embed YT vids on this forum???  I'm probably missing something simple.  I'm using Chrome btw.  Thanks.  I tried Kojacks trick about copying the link from notepad but this did not work.  I just tried using my Edge browser and it seems to work.

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  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,909 Valuable Player
    TomCgcmfc said:
    ......
    Ya, they probably have a little catching up to do, lol!

    I thought this comment on another forum from a Developer was pretty interesting......


    Thanks for sharing that @TomCgcmfc - yes had noticed a lot of comments on the developers forums about the missed opportunities on the Cosmos - and the following "look at the bigger picture" statements from those involved. As Cosmos is thinking of a future approach, and also as a next iteration tracking (Enterprise aspects) - would not be surprised with this assumption. 

    I do not subscribe to the claim that HTC management are "playing 4D chess" with their business plan. I know they have rushed to ensure that Enterprise elements are prominent in the Cosmos design, and that the new 5G base-station feature demonstrated is integral to their plans.

    I think we may be about to see a reshuffling of the pack (regarding content and hardware providers), we are due next month (tomorrow!) a number of re-structural announcement from dedicated players. Many execs are looking to new opportunities just this month, and with the closures of other studios, and demands for investment returns it will be pretty hectic to try and keep count. 

    With new headsets such as Varjo and Acer, it will be hard to keep tabs on the PC VR scene beyond its pivot away from the VR community. And obviously the situation on the pivot with Oculus Quest will also have its own implications on future investment. By this time next month I wonder if we will be looking at a completely different landscape?  
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    ** New Book **
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  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 1,691
    Project 2501
    OMG, I ordered a Cosmos Wireless Kit today.  Expensive, yes.  Priceless, I hope so, lol!

    Hopefully I'll get it later this week and I'll let you all know how I make out with it. Cheers.

    Custom built gaming desktop; i9 9900k (water cooled) oc to 5ghz, gtx 1080 ti (from my old AGA), 32 gb 3000hz ram, 1 tb ssd, 4 tb hdd.  Asus  ROG Maximus xi hero wifi mb, StarTech 4 port/4 controller sata powered usb3.0 pcie card, Asus VG248QE 1080p 144hz gaming monitor, Oculus Rift cv1 w/2x sensors, Vive Pro, Vive Cosmos, Vive Wireless.

  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,909 Valuable Player
    Well this video just in and the comparison seems quite damming:




    Makes me wonder why so many of the reviews were so positive if this is the situation.

    Do you think HTC can dig themselves out of this situation, like OculusVR did with the Rift-S tracking update?



    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 1,691
    Project 2501
    edited November 2019
    Kevin, do you think that starting another Cosmos thread is a good idea?  I don’t think so.

    If you want my comments regarding anything Cosmos related please delete this thread and repost on Runes main Cosmos thread.  Thanks again.

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  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 5,152 Volunteer Moderator
    I’ve merged the new thread into the existing Cosmos thread. Let’s try to keep it in one place. 
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  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,869 Valuable Player
    kevinw729 said:
    Well this video just in and the comparison seems quite damming:




    Makes me wonder why so many of the reviews were so positive if this is the situation.

    Do you think HTC can dig themselves out of this situation, like OculusVR did with the Rift-S tracking update?



    So is this what we have to look forward to when VR headsets are first released from now on? They start of like a steaming pile of poop and then maybe get better after a few months of patching? well forget about the millions of people you want in VR if that's the case, because people will be put off by bad tracking etc. All it will do is frustrate people and probably make them return the turd they were suckered into purchasing. I really thought this VR headset was going to be something good.


  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 1,691
    Project 2501
    Thanks mate!

    Kevin, just my opinion but my Cosmos tracking with the same 1.0.7.1 software update is much better the mrtv's.  Even a recent update from Cas shows a much better result and she is still using a green screen which is far from optimal.



    I'm not saying that the Cosmos tracking is as good as the Rift S but based on the current update I think it will get there soon.

    I've had my Cosmos for a month now and have had my Wireless adapter for just a few days.  Vive is promising a new update later this month so when this is out I will present a summary of my Cosmos experience then.  So far, it's still work in progress.  Far too easy to complain and criticise anything early one.  Seems to be a very popular pastime for many immature reddit kiddies, lol!

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  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,177 Valuable Player
    TomCgcmfc said:
    Thanks mate!

    Kevin, just my opinion but my Cosmos tracking with the same 1.0.7.1 software update is much better the mrtv's.  Even a recent update from Cas shows a much better result and she is still using a green screen which is far from optimal.



    I'm not saying that the Cosmos tracking is as good as the Rift S but based on the current update I think it will get there soon.

    I've had my Cosmos for a month now and have had my Wireless adapter for just a few days.  Vive is promising a new update later this month so when this is out I will present a summary of my Cosmos experience then.  So far, it's still work in progress.  Far too easy to complain and criticise anything early one.  Seems to be a very popular pastime for many immature reddit kiddies, lol!
    Its slowly coming along. I hope they get it the way it should be. It's better for vr forvthe cosmos to succeed.
  • hoppingbunny123hoppingbunny123 Posts: 713
    Trinity
    edited November 2019
    nice video from the vr lady, i didnt watch the vr mans video tho, sry.

    i think after looking at game making for a bit that if there is a unity scene thats got something in a prefab thats also used in a different scene using the same prefab. if the one scene isnt updating the prefabs when theyre changed, then the other scene has a different prefabs. which causes a error., since theres no error i can only assume its a logical error that is from the same updating error. for instance the amount of blocks being destroyed not being sent to both scenes so one scene doesnt know of a block being destroyed.

    this could be solved by using the unity update function, to be read by both scenes. so when theres a count changed in a variable its read immediately by the other scene.

    assuming the two controllers are in one scene per controller. else if theyre in the same scene they still could use the update function since its still probably a update logical error.

    edit, i looked at the github repository and the commits to see where the tracking fixes were made, the snipped below looks interesting, line 188;

    if (spaceVelocity->velocityFlags & XR_SPACE_VELOCITY_ANGULAR_VALID_BIT) {
    i see its got something using a ? mark bit of code which means if-then-else operator, which might be being read by only one controller. while not read but needing to be read by the other controller. adding the values, left controller from right controller. something like this

    double salary = 45000;




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