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Quest Link - as good as a Rift?

kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,813 Valuable Player
I am really worried that we may have to start "managing expectations" regarding what the Quest Link performance can achieve. I see the same old "over hyperbole" from the usual suspects on forums, and not helped by messages like these in the media:



https://venturebeat.com/2019/11/03/oculus-link-beta-what-to-expect-from-linking-pc-and-standalone-vr/?fbclid=IwAR27SzGO4YWLjvjfrfV4v0ObXYTgR_fzK44FiI6kW6M8OtbKb75VDybhdI4
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** New Book **
"The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
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  • dburnedburne Posts: 2,850 Valuable Player
    Lol while it may be a neat thing to do, I think they are dreaming if they think it will be as good as a Rift/Rift S.
    I do however have a Quest here waiting to have a go with it and see for myself.
    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 594
    Neo
    Yeap, nothing kills more than overhype, and judging by what i have seen of a few forums and websites, some seem to be convinced this link cable is going to make the Quest a 1:1 with a HMD connect via a HDMI/USB port HMD, and they seem to be getting that view from the few YT channels and websites that got to try the link cable in the controlled enviroment of the OC6, so yeah a tempered approch to stuff like this is always best, set the bar low and you will never be disappointed. lol

  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,813 Valuable Player
    OmegaM4N said:
    Yeap, nothing kills more than overhype, and judging by what i have seen of a few forums and websites, some seem to be convinced this link cable is going to make the Quest a 1:1 with a HMD connect via a HDMI/USB port HMD, and they seem to be getting that view from the few YT channels and websites that got to try the link cable in the controlled enviroment of the OC6, so yeah a tempered approch to stuff like this is always best, set the bar low and you will never be disappointed. lol


    Yeah, the community seems to be depending a lot on the OC6 "brief" hands-on reports. I have a bone to pick with the TESTED guys, especially after they had to run some "retractions" on their gushing commentary. Shame what you have to do to get an exclusive report from OC.

    Yes, many forums are being encouraged to see Oculus Quest Link as able to:

    - Play games and content just like Rift and Rift-S
    - Turn water into wine
    - Achieve over a million Quest sales in two months
    - Deflect FB investment concerns

    I just can't help feeling for Lenovo in all this - even though they get a bit from Quest fabrication. I just read they have cut their VR development group, (just a matter of weeks after Xiaomi), and are also privately looking at their options in the VR space beyond Rift-S. Yet another bridge starts to smolder!
    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • dburnedburne Posts: 2,850 Valuable Player
    Sounds like Lenovo was hastily used by Oculus to bring the Rift S, and hastily dismissed by Oculus after their "discovery" of the ability to link the Quest to the PC for VR.
    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,926 Valuable Player
    nalex66 said:
    kevinw729 said:
    I am really worried that we may have to start "managing expectations" regarding what the Quest Link performance can achieve. I see the same old "over hyperbole" from the usual suspects on forums, and not helped by messages like these in the media...
    I’ve been doing some testing this weekend of the latest beta release of the Virtual Desktop SteamVR streamer. The dev has attempted to implement some of the features that Oculus unveiled for Link; foveated image compression for better centre-image quality, and striped encoding for reduced latency. The result is quite impressive—it looks and feels very much like playing on my Rift CV1. The experience can be a little inconsistent, but this is over wifi, so there is some dependence on the quality of your signal. A cabled solution should be able to provide a smoother result,and based on what I’ve seen with VD, I’m very optimistic about what Link can do. 

    There are some shortcomings, such as a little extra weight in the Quest, and having to use headphones to achieve similar sound quality to the CV1 (I bought the official Quest earbuds, and they’re excellent). But in terms of visuals at least, the experience compares favourably to a CV1, with the higher res screen and better lenses being a worthwhile trade-off against the slightly lower refresh rate. I don’t have a Rift S to compare it to, but as a CV1 user, I’m looking forward to testing Link, and am considering whether it might replace my CV1. 

    I’m not sure which “usual suspects” on the forum you’re accusing of over-hyping it (maybe you mean me), but it seems to me that Link should be able to deliver what it says on the tin; a Rift-like experience playing PCVR content over a cable. 

    Have you actually tried Quest+Link at any of the demos? If you want to “manage expectations” about sales numbers and investor concerns, that’s all well and good, but in terms of the technical proficiency of the Link solution, I’ll take the word of someone who’s tried it over the opinion of someone who always seems quick to pass judgement on anything Oculus does.
    How much super sampling did you use for CV1 in your comparison? 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • saami81saami81 Posts: 164
    Art3mis
    RuneSR2 said:

    How much super sampling did you use for CV1 in your comparison? 
    I think that they should be tested with same ss. 2.0 would be best, if computer can handle it or best possible. 
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBqAIITC1HM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-0xfwZk7R4
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 3,844 Valuable Player
    I can vouch for the streaming. In certain applications it was close to Rift quality or better due to the higher res screen. If the cable is on par or better than streaming it will be a nice alternative to the Rift S for sure.


    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 5,027 Volunteer Moderator
    RuneSR2 said:
    How much super sampling did you use for CV1 in your comparison? 
    I'm using 150% in SteamVR (I think, I'd have to check when I'm home).

    I can vouch for the streaming. In certain applications it was close to Rift quality or better due to the higher res screen. If the cable is on par or better than streaming it will be a nice alternative to the Rift S for sure.
    Have you tried the new 1.7 beta version of VD? It's not yet available on SideQuest, but you can download it from Github. It really takes it a step further, and I can't even see the foveated compression, unlike the fixed foveated rendering in Vader Immortal, which is very obvious.
    i7 5820K @ 4.25 GHz | EVGA GTX 1080 SC | Gigabyte GA-X99-UD4 | Corsair DDR4 3000 32 GB | Corsair HX 750W
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,926 Valuable Player
    nalex66 said:
    RuneSR2 said:
    How much super sampling did you use for CV1 in your comparison? 
    I'm using 150% in SteamVR (I think, I'd have to check when I'm home).

    I can vouch for the streaming. In certain applications it was close to Rift quality or better due to the higher res screen. If the cable is on par or better than streaming it will be a nice alternative to the Rift S for sure.
    Have you tried the new 1.7 beta version of VD? It's not yet available on SideQuest, but you can download it from Github. It really takes it a step further, and I can't even see the foveated compression, unlike the fixed foveated rendering in Vader Immortal, which is very obvious.
    It would indeed be awesome if Quest streaming works flawlessly, I'm looking forward to reviews, especially from users. ss 1.5 is nice, sure ss 2.0 is better, but ss 1.5 will give you an acceptable image quality - if Quest looks at least as good as CV ss 1.5 that's great! 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 5,027 Volunteer Moderator
    RuneSR2 said:
    It would indeed be awesome if Quest streaming works flawlessly, I'm looking forward to reviews, especially from users. ss 1.5 is nice, sure ss 2.0 is better, but ss 1.5 will give you an acceptable image quality - if Quest looks at least as good as CV ss 1.5 that's great! 
    There may be a case of diminishing returns trying to crank up the SS with VD, since the final rendered image will be downsampled to fit the streaming limits. This is a quote from the dev (ggodin) on Discord:
    In 1.6, the resolution was 1824x2016 per eye, in 1.7 its something like 1376 x 1476 (don’t have the exact numbers in front of me)But the perceived resolution is a bit higher in 1.7.
    So the non-beta (1.6.3) version of VD streams the image at a resolution of 1824x2016 per eye, which corresponds to 120% render resolution for CV1 in SteamVR (I think--I'm not at my VR PC to confirm right now). The new foveated compression takes a slightly higher-res image and reduces the outer edge resolution to get a final image size of 1376x1476 per eye for streaming. It seems like pushing the render resolution higher than 130 to 150% in SteamVR may be a waste of pixels for streaming.

    I don't know how Link will compare, but it's likely to be similar--I believe that they've said that it will use a render resolution similar to the Rift S.
    i7 5820K @ 4.25 GHz | EVGA GTX 1080 SC | Gigabyte GA-X99-UD4 | Corsair DDR4 3000 32 GB | Corsair HX 750W
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,926 Valuable Player
    edited November 4
    Just saw these new videos, nice  :) But no mention of Oculus Link - videos published today:





    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 5,027 Volunteer Moderator
    Nice, they've got a little clip of Echo Arena in there. Can't wait for that to come out on Quest.
    i7 5820K @ 4.25 GHz | EVGA GTX 1080 SC | Gigabyte GA-X99-UD4 | Corsair DDR4 3000 32 GB | Corsair HX 750W
    Corsair Hydro H100i | Samsung SSDs: 860 Evo 1 TB, 850 Evo 1 TB, 840 Evo 1 TB | Seagate BarraCuda HDD 3 TB
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,813 Valuable Player
    nalex66 said:
    .....
    I’m not sure which “usual suspects” on the forum you’re accusing of over-hyping it (maybe you mean me), but it seems to me that Link should be able to deliver what it says on the tin; a Rift-like experience playing PCVR content over a cable. 

    Have you actually tried Quest+Link at any of the demos? If you want to “manage expectations” about sales numbers and investor concerns, that’s all well and good, but in terms of the technical proficiency of the Link solution, I’ll take the word of someone who’s tried it over the opinion of someone who always seems quick to pass judgement on anything Oculus does.

    Easy tiger! - please, I stated "...usual suspects on forums..." - was not alluding to you or just one forum - I also include the Facebook Oculus forums in that statement. I understand how some are easily triggered, so I made a point of not picking on one individual or forum. 

    Agree I will be taking the word of someone who has used the system.... me - as I hope to be spending the next couple of days with developers and clients working on evaluating the Link for some VR projects to be announced at the end of the month. But agree with your assessment, and look forward to hearing more. 
    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,813 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Just saw these new videos, nice  :) But no mention of Oculus Link - videos published today:
    ....

    Yeah, was weird, the commercial was running on the television in the restaurant we were in yesterday night - seems the marketing has stepped up for the Holiday sales!

    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,926 Valuable Player
    kevinw729 said:

    I just can't help feeling for Lenovo in all this - even though they get a bit from Quest fabrication. I just read they have cut their VR development group, (just a matter of weeks after Xiaomi), and are also privately looking at their options in the VR space beyond Rift-S. Yet another bridge starts to smolder!

    Seems like Lenovo is busy doing other stuff  B)




    https://newatlas.com/vr/lenovo-thinkreality-ar-headset/
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,813 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    ...
    Seems like Lenovo is busy doing other stuff  B)

    https://newatlas.com/vr/lenovo-thinkreality-ar-headset/

    Yep, we saw this at AWE EU and had a chance to try it. Seems all of the key VR manufacturers have a dedicated AR headset plan in place - in some way or another. Explains the increase in Enterprise investment, even Valve is rumored to be with Apple. This just leave if OculusVR will be rolled in to the FACEBOOK AR project?



    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,153 Valuable Player
    Well I've said it in other threads and I'll say t again here. Even if the Quest and Link cable give an identical experience to the Rift S (which most certainly won't be the case) I'll still prefer a Rift S purely down to the Halo head strap. I honestly can't live without it now and it's so good that I'm not sure if I'll buy the Rift 2 if it doesn't have one. :o
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 4,813 Valuable Player
    Yeah, that halo strap that Sony invented and licensed to Samsung and Lenovo (and others) has been a revolution, and was originated for headset design some 26-years ago.


    P6ftmuw.jpg
    ** New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 6,774 Valuable Player
    kevinw729 said:
    Yeah, that halo strap that Sony invented and licensed to Samsung and Lenovo (and others) has been a revolution, and was originated for headset design some 26-years ago.


    I much prefer the Halo design unless you don't mind going bald quicker. Anything rubbing on your hair like with the overhead CV1 strap is not good for the hair :p
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,117 Valuable Player
    A few reviewers said it was a good experience. A few even said they liked the visuals better for the darker blacks etc. I believe it will work close enough to the rift s. It will be harder for many vr enthusiasts to own both. Comfort is important though. On my quest I use a comfort strap that helps but the rift s is still more comfortable. That being said if the quest link  has close visuals to the rift s I probably would not have bought my rift s. 
  • ohgrantohgrant Posts: 203
    Nexus 6
      Of course time will tell but I'm thinking them saying "Quest is basically a Rift now too" is a fair statement. I've been streaming to the quest via Riftcat and for many things, I'm pretty impressed. Many games look better streamed to the Quest than they do with my CV1 and original Vive. Borderlands in particular is so much better on the Quest. Games with higher textures look great until I start walking. I'm optimistic the cable will be wonderful but I'm sure there will be some issues at first. 
     For me the Quest link cable and update doesn't have to be better than Rift-S it just has to be better than my CV1 and Vive. Then the cameras can come down 
      
  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 594
    Neo
    RuneSR2 said:
    kevinw729 said:

    I just can't help feeling for Lenovo in all this - even though they get a bit from Quest fabrication. I just read they have cut their VR development group, (just a matter of weeks after Xiaomi), and are also privately looking at their options in the VR space beyond Rift-S. Yet another bridge starts to smolder!

    Seems like Lenovo is busy doing other stuff  B)




    https://newatlas.com/vr/lenovo-thinkreality-ar-headset/
    That looks very interestimg, imagine a HMD that was clear like that around the outside like the one in that picture, then when you start up VR the clear bit around the outside went completly black, like bring down a digital black curtian, and all you could see then were the two screens immersing you in vr, it would be a step up from the inclosed box HMD we have at present.
    I want one...now. lol
  • kojackkojack Posts: 5,694 Volunteer Moderator
    OmegaM4N said:
    then when you start up VR the clear bit around the outside went completly black, like bring down a digital black curtian
    If it had pixels rather than just a whole panel on/off like lcd shutter glasses, then you could combine it with the wave guide based additive light AR displays to provide a black base. The problem with displays like on the Hololens and Magic Leap is that they work like a projector, you can't make anything darker. You can't draw black over the environment, you can only make everything else brighter. But with a monochrome LCD backing, it can block the light where required.


    Actually AR has one advantage that I hadn't really thought about: much less likely to have motion sickness. I had a Magic Leap developer use my Go last week and it affected him pretty strongly. Since Hololens/Magic Leap style AR is mostly real world view with no digital artifacts (framerate, latency, eye accomodation, etc), it doesn't mess with people's brains as much. The low FOV helps with that, even if they wanted to cover everything in graphics, they only have a 40-50 degree region over the much larger clear peripheral region.

  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 7,153 Valuable Player
    Bollocks to AR. I play VR to get AWAY from the real world, I don't want it intruding on my gaming again, I had enough of that happening playing games flat!!!  :D
    "This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

    Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever
  • kojackkojack Posts: 5,694 Volunteer Moderator
    If Oculus gave us access to the passthrough video, it would be interesting to test if a vignette of fading to the passthrough would help with sickness, letting people have a peripheral view of the real world, even if digital (and grey scale), might help ground them.
    I guess I could make a test using my Zed Mini and try it on my coworkers who get VR sick.
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,197 Valuable Player
    edited November 6
    I would love AR for business instead of a screen. If you could have all of your screens virtually around you and any size it would be brilliant.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,926 Valuable Player


    BTW, one senior doctor told me that you always see a 25 year old man in Mercedes Benz commercials, but only men age 50+ buy these cars, because most young persons can't afford such cars. 

    Now, I'm getting some gray hair too, and sometimes I can't help thinking that many boardies in here easily could join in a new club  "Old men with far too big rigs"  :D  
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 3,926 Valuable Player
    edited November 21
    It seems super sampling doesn't really provide any benefit for Quest Link due to the downsampling:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/dzaiua/using_super_sampling_with_quest_link/

    Surely CV1 ss 2.0 isn't looking as great as Index ss 2.0 (=res 200%), but apart from the SDE and fov I'd say CV1 ss 2.0 isn't that far behind Index ss 1.4 (res 100%). 

    I find it really hard to believe that Quest Link - if ss doesn't do anything - can look as good as CV1 ss 2.0. 

    But I do get that those using CV1 ss 1.0 to 1.3 might find that Quest Link could look similarly or slightly better... 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 5,027 Volunteer Moderator
    RuneSR2 said:
    It seems super sampling doesn't really provide any benefit for Quest Link due to the downsampling:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/dzaiua/using_super_sampling_with_quest_link/

    Surely CV1 ss 2.0 isn't looking as great as Index ss 2.0 (=res 200%), but apart from the SDE and fov I'd say CV1 ss 2.0 isn't that far behind Index ss 1.4 (res 100%). 

    I find it really hard to believe that Quest Link - if ss doesn't do anything - can look as good as CV1 ss 2.0. 

    But I do get that those using CV1 ss 1.0 to 1.3 might find that Quest Link could look similarly or slightly better... 
    You're obsessed.  ;)

    Really though, Quest/Link looks fantastic, significantly better than CV1. I don't usually bother with SS beyond what's available in a game's settings, because I never found that it made a huge difference. I tried to take some through-the-lens photos the other night, but they didn't come out too well. Maybe I'll give it another go this weekend, just for you non-believers.
    i7 5820K @ 4.25 GHz | EVGA GTX 1080 SC | Gigabyte GA-X99-UD4 | Corsair DDR4 3000 32 GB | Corsair HX 750W
    Corsair Hydro H100i | Samsung SSDs: 860 Evo 1 TB, 850 Evo 1 TB, 840 Evo 1 TB | Seagate BarraCuda HDD 3 TB
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