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The Index thread (please keep to subject)

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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,846 Valuable Player
    What's this pixel inversion thing? This is the first I'm hearing of it
    More here:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/c8ehs1/problem_with_index_vertical_lines/
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • Comrade_IvanComrade_Ivan Posts: 126
    Art3mis
    Whoa!
    How ubiquitous is this issue? My Index just shipped today; definitely something to look out for
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,333 Valuable Player
    urdgfqqehbbb.png
    ** Second New Book **
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    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,846 Valuable Player
    edited November 2019
    Whoa!
    How ubiquitous is this issue? My Index just shipped today; definitely something to look out for
    You can read more here, btw, one dude tried 3 different hmds, all had the issue to some extend.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/dzyqvo/scan_lines_or_pixel_inversion_in_new_batches_of/

    It might not be a problem, unless you're like me, lol. I bet many people never notice it. Like some people think CV1 ss 1.5 is same as ss 2.0 ;)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,846 Valuable Player
    Watched a few movies using BigScreen Revive with Index res 200%, (= solid 90 fps) and it's close to being in a theater. But one movie was mkv another mp4, although 1080p it's just not good enough. You need 4K.
    But that's just me, I'm sure many persons with little knowledge about VR would be totally blown away. With 4K and virtual surround sound I think Index might be really close to IMAX at home ;)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,846 Valuable Player

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,356 Valuable Player
    Did Valve fix their controller clicking issue or didn't it require a fix? I really don't want to have to search the thread to see. I'm waiting for CES in January and if nothing good comes out of that, then I will be well on my way for saving for a Valve index.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,846 Valuable Player
    RedRizla said:
    Did Valve fix their controller clicking issue or didn't it require a fix? I really don't want to have to search the thread to see. I'm waiting for CES in January and if nothing good comes out of that, then I will be well on my way for saving for a Valve index.
    I believe that thumbsticks click perfectly using new Index controllers. Drifting may be another issue, but clicks seem fine.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,846 Valuable Player
    Hmmm, Left 4 Dead could be interesting...


    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,333 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Hmmm, Left 4 Dead could be interesting...
    .....

    Agree, that was a well presented and interesting summation of the situation as well as looking at the needed timeline. I like the comment about needing to keep momentum towards encouraging other developers to create content. Also have to question what this could have been if rather than waiting on the INDEX they had gone with supporting the VIVE with this content - seems the game was available a year ago, but was drawn out because it was given lesser resources?

    Though the author alludes too "all boats floating with the tide" - I think we can see that Valve INDEX is seeing the biggest push from regained interest in playing HLA. Its going to be hard to not see this fueling a new "PC-masterrace" element to the VR community. Looking forward to seeing those Steam survey data for the end of the year (let alone March). Especially if by then the L4D news also drops.  
    urdgfqqehbbb.png
    ** Second New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
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  • MaxxgoldMaxxgold Posts: 518
    Neo

    If anyone that has a Valve Index is looking for an amazing 3D mod. Check this out. It moves a very small amount of air into your headset. Not enough air to dry your eyes, but just enough to give you a refreshing feeling while playing VR, and an added bonus of helping with fogged lenses.

    https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4012790
  • CalibosCalibos Posts: 113
    Art3mis
    edited December 2019
    RuneSR2 said:
    Watched a few movies using BigScreen Revive with Index res 200%, (= solid 90 fps) and it's close to being in a theater. But one movie was mkv another mp4, although 1080p it's just not good enough. You need 4K.
    But that's just me, I'm sure many persons with little knowledge about VR would be totally blown away. With 4K and virtual surround sound I think Index might be really close to IMAX at home ;)
    Given Bigscreens atrocious Remote Desktop network Stack I wouldn't trust their Virtual Desktop Software stack either anymore.

    I bought an Oculus GO for Virtual Cinema in the Primeday sales a few months ago and found Bigscreens remote Desktop functionality beyond terrible. Mouse Lagging by seconds and moving compression artifacts on a still desktop image FFS!! Don't get me started on actual Video!! Guy Godins Virtual Desktop on the other hand was a revelation on the GO. Zero latency and no visible compression artifacts. As good as a wired HMD. I even ended up using GO Virtual Desktops amazing SteamVR Game streaming functionality to stream the Desktop SteamVR version of Virtual Desktop to the Go version so that I could use the resource intensive HighMax Virtual Cinema DLC. Its an accurate recreation of the largest iMAX cinema in the world at Darling Harbour in Sydney Australia with its 500 seats and 100ft widescreen. Watched the entire 23 movie Marvel Cinematic Universe roster of movies in 3D in that Virtual Cinema using KODI as my Library manager, UI and player and outputting real 5.1 audio to my real 5.1 Home Theater System. Its was GLORIOUS!!.

    While I understand GO doesn't have full panel utilisation, the fact that the Virtual screen height takes up over half the FOV and the vertical res of the GO is 1440 pixels, the Virtual screen is using about 720 of them and I do believe it looks close to an effective 720p res to my eyes. GO with its 2560x1440 RGB Stripe LCD certainly passed an image quality and clarity threshold for me that my 2160x1200 Pentile OLED CV1 never could with its SDE and all its weird OLED colour banding and blocky colour artifacts in dark areas of the environment and in dark scenes on screen.

    I have a HP Reverb on the way thanks to the BF sales and expect its 2160 vertical res and 2160 horizontal res (compared to CV1/GO's 1080/1280 horizontal res per eye) to deliver an effective 1080p quality experience to my eyes.

    Which leads me to my final point. Why do you think you'll need 4K content to do the Index nevermind the Reverb justice? The Virtual screens will be an effective 1080p res at best. My experience is already glorious with an effective 720p on GO. It'll take Michael Abrashs' mythical future 4000x4000 pixel per eye HMD to have any chance of replicating a 4K (3820x2160) screen inside VR. Don't assume the need for downsampling 4K source material for a Virtual Cinema when the issue you have could simply be down to Bigscreen just not being a very Good Virtual Cinema/Virtual Desktop app from a technical standpoint outside of its social functionality. John Carmack actually namechecked Guy Godin of Virtual Desktop  in his OC6 keynote as always being the first to implement any of Carmacks magical software features like Cylindrical layers and he has already integrated Carmacks Oculus Link Foveated Compression technology into Virtual Desktops Wireless Remote Desktop functionality for Go and Quest.

    I have high hopes for tethered Desktop SteamVR Virtual Desktop and the Highmax Virtual Cinema on my new HP Reverb. I've already got real 5.1 audio sorted and don't need to wait for personalised HRTF HMD's and a proper Multichannel audio format to VR positional audio transcoding solution. (Though I admit that once they crack that along with the Res/Visuals we've hit the Virtual Cinema Holy Grail of replicating both the visual and audio experience of the real cinema inside VR and with the aid of tactile transducers in our seats not disturbing someone in the next room nevermind not having to worry about a neighbour knocking on our door complaining that our 5.1 system and subwoofer have vibrated his picture frames of his livingroom wall)
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,846 Valuable Player
    All the 1080p (compressed) movies I tried in the Index looked horribly low-res and that's not caused by the HMD. Showing 1080p using Big Screen or other players feels much like sitting in a real theater watching a blu-ray movie - without any 4K upscaling, and it does not look very good. Much the same bad res I get when watching some 1080p content with my 4K 85" tv, but there the 4K upscaling often helps a lot. The movie image size in the Index is so big that I need to turn my head if I want to see everything - just like sitting in the center of an Imax theater - so the movie image size is much bigger than Index can display within it's native res and fov restrictions. That's why 1080p does not look very good when shown is such a large format (like zoomed in), it lacks detail - I guess that's why you don't get 1080p in your local Imax theater ;) I think Reverb will need 4K content to shine the most too, unless we somehow can get awesome 2k to 4k upscaling working.

    BigScreen is kinda horrible, I gave up using both Touch or Knuckles and just use a normal mouse for starting movies. But I like The Void and I can get a really big screen, lol.
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 4,151 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Most if not all of my videos I capture are 4K and when played back on any VR headset look pretty awesome. You really are restricted by the source video not necessarily the resolution of the headset.


    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
  • CalibosCalibos Posts: 113
    Art3mis
    RuneSR2 said:
    All the 1080p (compressed) movies I tried in the Index looked horribly low-res and that's not caused by the HMD. Showing 1080p using Big Screen or other players feels much like sitting in a real theater watching a blu-ray movie - without any 4K upscaling, and it does not look very good. Much the same bad res I get when watching some 1080p content with my 4K 85" tv, but there the 4K upscaling often helps a lot. The movie image size in the Index is so big that I need to turn my head if I want to see everything - just like sitting in the center of an Imax theater - so the movie image size is much bigger than Index can display within it's native res and fov restrictions. That's why 1080p does not look very good when shown is such a large format (like zoomed in), it lacks detail - I guess that's why you don't get 1080p in your local Imax theater ;) I think Reverb will need 4K content to shine the most too, unless we somehow can get awesome 2k to 4k upscaling working.

    BigScreen is kinda horrible, I gave up using both Touch or Knuckles and just use a normal mouse for starting movies. But I like The Void and I can get a really big screen, lol.
    In 'The Real World', the number of pixels that make up the image doesn't change no matter how close or far away from the screen you sit. You need 4K minimum in a real Cinema for a respectable experience because the folks sitting in the front row are close enough to the screen to resolve the pixels and SDE to an image quality destroying degree if the Cinema is still running a crappy 2K cinema projector. 4K in a real Cinema isn't ideal either but its a lot better than 2K. THX's old recommendations for the best seating position in Theaters during the 35mm film era was all based on best viewing angle and Screen Size to visual FOV ratio's. The effective 16K res of 35mm film meant resolution of the image was never an issue no matter where you sat in the CInema even up front. The move to Digital 2K and 4K projectors meant that the middle seat in the middle row of the Cinema was now not just the best seat in the house from a Screen size to FOV ratio point of view but now also from a Screen Size to FOV to SDE ratio point of view too.

    Thats not the case in VR. You aren't 'Zooming' in or out on the pixels by picking a Virtual seating position closer or further away from the Virtual Screen. In fact, the closer you sit Virtually to the screen and the more the Virtual Screen fills your FOV, the more pixels of your VR HMD you are using to actually display the movie image and the less you are using to draw the environment around the screen. You 'INCREASE' the resolution of the Movie image by picking a Virtual seat closer to the Virtual screen if the Virtual Cinema app allows it.

    Look, I can't rule out that using 4K source material and its effective downsampling for display on a Virtual Screen thats using 1920x1080 of a Reverbs 2160x2160 pixels isn't going to improve the image quality. We all know how Super Sampling games in our VR HMD's can improve things especially text. However, watching 1080p media content on a 100ft wide 60ft tall Virtual iMAX screen is NOT the same as watching 1080P content on a real life 100ft x 60ft real Cinema screen. In a Virtual Cinema the further you sit from the Virtual Screen the less pixels go to make up the image and the greater each individual pixels size is relative to the size of the screen, whereas in a real Cinema the further you sit the smaller the pixels and the closer you sit the larger the pixels appear to be.

    Don't worry, I'm going to try some 4K content in the HighMax Virtual Cinema in Virtual Desktop on my Reverb when I get it but I'm not expecting much of a difference and don't reckon I am going to feel the need to replace all my media with the 4K versions.
  • Comrade_IvanComrade_Ivan Posts: 126
    Art3mis
    edited December 2019
    Calibos said:

    You need 4K minimum in a real Cinema for a respectable experience because the folks sitting in the front row are close enough to the screen to resolve the pixels and SDE to an image quality destroying degree if the Cinema is still running a crappy 2K cinema projector. 4K in a real Cinema isn't ideal either but its a lot better than 2K. 
    As of 2 years ago, globally the number of installed 4K projectors is 27,500, comprising just 17% of total screens worldwide.

    Sony took the lead in supporting 4K with its vertically integrated business. Its global fleet of roughly 17,000 projectors is 4K compliant, while only 10% of projectors sold by Barco, Christie and NEC are 4K.

    According to analytics company IHS Markit, the markets with the highest penetration of 4K digital projection are the US (40%), Thailand (35%) and Estonia (52% of a small total base). In the UK, 32% of screens are 4K.

    I've no idea what the numbers are like here in Canada, but 1980 seems to be in vast majority
  • Comrade_IvanComrade_Ivan Posts: 126
    Art3mis
    edited December 2019
    Clickgate is back =(

    Just received my Index kit, and the left controller's thumbstick doesn't click in the leftmost position. All other positions work. Right thumbstick is OK too.

    Kinda bites, especially given that here in Canada the kit costs $1,477 after all is said and done.

    Oh, and 28 cents too, if anyone is counting pennies :P
  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 843
    3Jane
    Kinda bites, especially given that here in Canada the kit costs $1,477 after all is said and done.

    Oh, and 28 cents too, if anyone is counting pennies :P

    So...$1,319...plus 12% tax. Are you BC or Manitoba? And I'm assuming shipping was included? Or...less tax, with shipping extra?
  • Comrade_IvanComrade_Ivan Posts: 126
    Art3mis
    Spuzzum said:
    So...$1,319...plus 12% tax. Are you BC or Manitoba? And I'm assuming shipping was included? Or...less tax, with shipping extra?
    Vancouver, BC. $1,477.28 from click to doorstep.

    I must say, I'm 3 hours in and a little miffed with the Index experience so far. So far I owned Gear VR, Google Daydream, Rift, Rift S, a Quest, and now an Index, and I was expecting more. 

    It's a great headset don't get me wrong. But at $500 (Rift S), is Index really 3 times better? I'm positive the answer is no. Not even 2 times better.

    I'm definitely keeping it though. I have an IPD of a bovine, and finally getting the clarity in my periphery is not something I'm willing to give up. But the cables (oh my, cables galore), the bulky plug 3 ft down the cable, the glare, the comfort (not as good as Rift S - again, bovine head here), and the lack of click on my controller (c'mon Valve, wtf) - it just burns looking at that number.

    I'm probably going to get crucified in this thread for saying so, but for any lurkers here who are considering buying an Index, maybe think twice about getting one right now. I'd wait a bit, and maybe get a used one.

    If I were made of money I'd keep all these headsets cause the one to rule them doesn't yet exist. They all have a different edge where they shine. But I can't justify holding onto all of them either. So the plan right now is to sell my Rift S and use Oculus Quest with a link cable for Oculus titles in my library. Which bites, cause I just finished modding Rift S with headphones and the darn thing is so much more comfortable than anything else I got.
  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 843
    3Jane
    edited December 2019
    I'm in Van myself...Strathcona. Thanks for the review. I was considering it for the 120Hz, and originally the off-the-ear headphones sounded cool, but then I got to thinking that I'd just hear my fridge hum, and my neighbours' noise, taking me out of that immersion. I'm in a bachelor suite, with thin walls. I usually keep a spot fan running just for white noise to drown it out. And as cool as the Knuckles are, how much does it really add to the game to be able to use each finger individually? Except for hand gestures, not much. I'll pass.
  • Comrade_IvanComrade_Ivan Posts: 126
    Art3mis
    Spuzzum said:
    .as.. cool as the Knuckles are, how much does it really add to the game to be able to use each finger individually? Except for hand gestures, not much. I'll pass.
    We'll see if Half Life Alyx has something special to offer for finger tracking (once it comes out), but for now I agree wholeheartedly.
    Btw, Strathcona isn't all that far from here. I'm in West End (Robson & Bute area). If you'd like to give Index a solid test, you're welcome to check it out. Just ping me a message; I wish I had a chance to do a test before I bought mine.
    This forum has direct messaging, I hope. I never really checked
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,846 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Clickgate is back =(

    Just received my Index kit, and the left controller's thumbstick doesn't click in the leftmost position. All other positions work. Right thumbstick is OK too.

    Kinda bites, especially given that here in Canada the kit costs $1,477 after all is said and done.

    Oh, and 28 cents too, if anyone is counting pennies :P

    You can check in SteamVR that all button presses register. According to Valve, thumbstick pressed down may not click, but it must register. You should be able to press down the thumbstick and get registration in the periphery (like positions north-south-east-west etc.). Or try some Arizona Sunshine - does everything work, can you sprint (requires thumbstick pressed down)?

    Clicks may not be important (unless they don't register), it's more the drifting that may develop later on.

    If you have GTX 1080 or better you may be able to increase res to 150 or even higher in several games. And remember to check out Revive (Stormland is not yet supported, the Revive dev just moved and it may take some weeks before he's back): 

     https://github.com/LibreVR/Revive/releases

    You could try Pistol Whip, Vanishing Realms and Lucky's Tale using res 200% for a start ;) 

    Find games with full Index support here - note that not all support full finger tracking:

    https://store.steampowered.com/sale/valve_index_featured_games/

    Looks like you've got no disturbing inverted vertical pixel lines, so there's that B)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 843
    3Jane
    Wow...you live in the ritzy part of town. :p Nice and close to the beach. :) I was actually down that way yesterday...well, Robson and Thurlow, anyway, walking to Thurlow and Davie area...Dana Larsen's Dispensary. :) I wouldn't mind seeing what the hype is about...maybe after Christmas, when everything's all settled down. :)

    Cheers.
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,952 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Yes, that is one of the cons in plus about the Index controllers - force grip and all finger tracking - but at a super high cost to what the Touch controllers cost $250 vs $75 that has a button and only tracks a few.

    Honestly - at 1k$ the big cost is the controllers and the base-stations witch is what is holding me back from purchasing it. The headset cost seems fine and reasonable for what is inside it. The value of what the controllers really offer seems a bit weird for the price.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,846 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019

    the one to rule them doesn't yet exist. They all have a different edge where they shine. 


    Like I previously wrote about CV1, this is an important observation.

    Many older games, which were designed for CV1 (and this includes Asgard's Wrath due to the build-in temporal antialiasing), shine much more using oled and CV1 (where the SDE magically makes low-res textures look much more high-res). I'm guessing Quest + Oculus Link might fill in for those who don't own CV1 here. 
    A lot of new Index users on Reddit seem not to understand this, and I'm getting really tired of trying to explain it on Reddit - but Index isn't the cure for everything. In fact it might reduce immersion and the quality of the experience by revealing too much or by requiring too much gpu power. Because due to lack of ASW 2.0 Index doesn't perform great when performance goes below the chosen refresh rate. So you need 120 fps in 120 Hz, and 90 fps in 90 Hz etc. Using CV1 I often don't have a problem with 45 fps, because everything feels much like 90 fps - not so with the Index. 
    For games where I can get solid 90 fps using res 150 - 200% the Index usually wins hands down, but you need oled for the dark horror games. As a rule of thumb, in games where you can see the CV1 spud effect (=really dark games), Index will look too bright and reduce immersion. Such games or apps are rare, but this illustrates that you need more than 1 hmd for optimal VR enjoyment.
    Index will probably shine more when games arrive, like Pistol Whip, which have been optimized - and tested - thoroughly using the Index. But until Boneworks arrives, such games are few (and based on the early trailers, much of Boneworks may have been designed using the Vive Pro = oled, but devs have now had 6 months to check that the game looks great using the Index). 

    I'm sure Alyx will play awesomely using even the CV1 too. Due to it's development since 2016 I'm guessing a lot of textures may have been chosen based on the image quality with the original Vive (oled + a lot of SDE), but interesting how that will turn out - maybe Valve is right now working on improving textures that don't look good with the Index ;-)

    I played Doom VFR using the Index res 200% (not sure it's working due to Vulkan) yesterday, usually got 90 fps even forcing 8xTSSAA, and Ultra settings for textures and shadows. But many textures aren't looking good anymore - again, Index reveals everything. That said the game is still awesome and several textures still look great - but you start to understand the need for much higher textures res when using the Index. I guess that's why it's called the Index - it allows users to see
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,846 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Just saw this on Reddit - and it illustrates spot on what happens if you think Index is the cure for everything:

    __________________

    How is Lone Echo on the Index?

    I have a 1080 and an i7 9700k and Echo VR runs incredibly bad for me, which is a shame as it used to be my favourite game until I got the Index. I guess the higher index panel resolution is just pushing too many pixels for the gpu's liking...

    Anyone try Lone Echo with similar specs? I really want to play through the campaign but if motion smoothing is going to be on 100% of the time I don't really feel like that's worth $45

    Thanks in advance!

    __________________

    - and my reply o:) 
    "You need to turn off temporal antialiasing (TAA), because that'll look super-blurry using the Index. Problem is that you now need MSAA, and MSAA requires tons of gpu performance compared to TAA. An ideal solution would be 4xMSAA and SteamVR res 150+ %, but for that you'll need a 3080 Ti or maybe 4080 Ti ;-)
    If you deactivate MSAA (and of course TAA) and using 100% res the game performs great, but jaggies are everywhere.

    Lone Echo was made for CV1, and Lone Echo with CV1 truly shines using super sampling 2.0 and temporal antialiasing. For now I have not been able to achieve similar image quality and performance using the Index - but using at least 2080 Ti or 3080 Ti may help. I use an oc'ed GTX 1080. And I've got more than 2 years of experience optimizing Lone Echo ;-)"

    Not sure Lone Echo 2 will work any better on Index - and Rift-S will also have problems if TAA is needed again (TAA looks very blurry on current LCD hmds), while Quest + Oculus Link may shine. The Lone Echo 2 Trailer Experience looks nice using CV1, but it sure looks awful using the Index (and you've got no graphics setting in the trailer). Thus the final version will be interesting - and asw 2.0 may prove very important too ;)

    The problem is that although we all what high res and awesome games, just running good old Lone Echo using the CV1 ss 2.0 and TAA (and no MSAA) will require a faster video card than 2080 Ti, because not even 2080 Ti can get solid 90 fps under those conditions (as tested in here about a year ago in a different thread).
    Devs even had to disable shadows in Boneworks to get acceptable performance, lol. Getting 90 fps in Stormland with all settings maxed (including the dreaded real time shadows) and forcing ss 2.0 with CV1 may again require a 3080 Ti or the like... when Revive works with Stormland, I'm sure we'll hear a lot of Index users complain about how badly Stormland is optimized, lol.

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,952 Valuable Player
    Too bad VR isnt big enough to support two different products - one with OLED and one with LCD for different price points xD
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,846 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Mradr said:
    Too bad VR isnt big enough to support two different products - one with OLED and one with LCD for different price points xD

    That's why I'm thinking that Vive Pro with Knuckles may be close to an optimal solution for now - but then again you'll lack asw 2.0 and have reduced fov... 

    I've said it before - we need Index with Quest (or Vive Pro) displays and fully supported by Oculus software, how hard can that be? :D And again for some games the high res would still be a problem at least until we get the 3080 Ti...

    I'm sure Valve is aware of such performance problems and that's why I like seeing GTX 1060 6GB as the recommended card for Alyx - but Valve may be able to create performance like only previously seen in Lone Echo and maybe Stormland...  
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,952 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Soo many hardware improvements to be made in 2020 its hard to say what we will have by 2021. Even in 2021 another jump will happen from DDR4 to DDR5 and other PCI improvements and memory bandwidth. Next year will be the 7-10nm rush for GPU makers thus we should see some pretty big IPC gains of around 15-30%. With rumors of MCM designs to help with pricing and yields.

    Really, the big change will happen when AMD finally releases something that can support Variable Rate Shading. This will open the door for all VR headsets to go forth with hardware acceleration base Eye tracking and FOVR. Even static FOVR should improve by another 5-10%. Granted that isn't much - but free performance is free performance.
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,952 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Just to spark another thing (this is to spark conversation - I know these games are good products) - you know the games coming out for Index like Boneworks and HFA are not that important. Really, its the idea of the fact games CAN be made with VR in mind and the modding of HFA that will keep drawing in VR users instead. The tools to make good VR will now be in the hands of others as well exploring different use cases we can use VR and what can make a good game out of them. The main problem with VR in general from a dev stand point is just that it takes a long time to really throw a good VR games together and play well with what we have now and not just a modded VR addon. HFA is a door open for everyone to really start playing with VR and expanding on the power of others and improving on what we can have later. Wouldn't think moving a card board box would mean much until you do it in VR - and as a dev - who really has the time to program all the small details + still make and fill out the story.
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