New to the forums? Click here to read the "How To" Guide.

Developer? Click here to go to the Developer Forums.

The Index thread (please keep to subject)

1424345474851

Comments

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Clickgate is back =(

    Just received my Index kit, and the left controller's thumbstick doesn't click in the leftmost position. All other positions work. Right thumbstick is OK too.

    Kinda bites, especially given that here in Canada the kit costs $1,477 after all is said and done.

    Oh, and 28 cents too, if anyone is counting pennies :P

    You can check in SteamVR that all button presses register. According to Valve, thumbstick pressed down may not click, but it must register. You should be able to press down the thumbstick and get registration in the periphery (like positions north-south-east-west etc.). Or try some Arizona Sunshine - does everything work, can you sprint (requires thumbstick pressed down)?

    Clicks may not be important (unless they don't register), it's more the drifting that may develop later on.

    If you have GTX 1080 or better you may be able to increase res to 150 or even higher in several games. And remember to check out Revive (Stormland is not yet supported, the Revive dev just moved and it may take some weeks before he's back): 

     https://github.com/LibreVR/Revive/releases

    You could try Pistol Whip, Vanishing Realms and Lucky's Tale using res 200% for a start ;) 

    Find games with full Index support here - note that not all support full finger tracking:

    https://store.steampowered.com/sale/valve_index_featured_games/

    Looks like you've got no disturbing inverted vertical pixel lines, so there's that B)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • SpuzzumSpuzzum Posts: 843
    3Jane
    Wow...you live in the ritzy part of town. :p Nice and close to the beach. :) I was actually down that way yesterday...well, Robson and Thurlow, anyway, walking to Thurlow and Davie area...Dana Larsen's Dispensary. :) I wouldn't mind seeing what the hype is about...maybe after Christmas, when everything's all settled down. :)

    Cheers.
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,564 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Yes, that is one of the cons in plus about the Index controllers - force grip and all finger tracking - but at a super high cost to what the Touch controllers cost $250 vs $75 that has a button and only tracks a few.

    Honestly - at 1k$ the big cost is the controllers and the base-stations witch is what is holding me back from purchasing it. The headset cost seems fine and reasonable for what is inside it. The value of what the controllers really offer seems a bit weird for the price.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019

    the one to rule them doesn't yet exist. They all have a different edge where they shine. 


    Like I previously wrote about CV1, this is an important observation.

    Many older games, which were designed for CV1 (and this includes Asgard's Wrath due to the build-in temporal antialiasing), shine much more using oled and CV1 (where the SDE magically makes low-res textures look much more high-res). I'm guessing Quest + Oculus Link might fill in for those who don't own CV1 here. 
    A lot of new Index users on Reddit seem not to understand this, and I'm getting really tired of trying to explain it on Reddit - but Index isn't the cure for everything. In fact it might reduce immersion and the quality of the experience by revealing too much or by requiring too much gpu power. Because due to lack of ASW 2.0 Index doesn't perform great when performance goes below the chosen refresh rate. So you need 120 fps in 120 Hz, and 90 fps in 90 Hz etc. Using CV1 I often don't have a problem with 45 fps, because everything feels much like 90 fps - not so with the Index. 
    For games where I can get solid 90 fps using res 150 - 200% the Index usually wins hands down, but you need oled for the dark horror games. As a rule of thumb, in games where you can see the CV1 spud effect (=really dark games), Index will look too bright and reduce immersion. Such games or apps are rare, but this illustrates that you need more than 1 hmd for optimal VR enjoyment.
    Index will probably shine more when games arrive, like Pistol Whip, which have been optimized - and tested - thoroughly using the Index. But until Boneworks arrives, such games are few (and based on the early trailers, much of Boneworks may have been designed using the Vive Pro = oled, but devs have now had 6 months to check that the game looks great using the Index). 

    I'm sure Alyx will play awesomely using even the CV1 too. Due to it's development since 2016 I'm guessing a lot of textures may have been chosen based on the image quality with the original Vive (oled + a lot of SDE), but interesting how that will turn out - maybe Valve is right now working on improving textures that don't look good with the Index ;-)

    I played Doom VFR using the Index res 200% (not sure it's working due to Vulkan) yesterday, usually got 90 fps even forcing 8xTSSAA, and Ultra settings for textures and shadows. But many textures aren't looking good anymore - again, Index reveals everything. That said the game is still awesome and several textures still look great - but you start to understand the need for much higher textures res when using the Index. I guess that's why it's called the Index - it allows users to see
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Just saw this on Reddit - and it illustrates spot on what happens if you think Index is the cure for everything:

    __________________

    How is Lone Echo on the Index?

    I have a 1080 and an i7 9700k and Echo VR runs incredibly bad for me, which is a shame as it used to be my favourite game until I got the Index. I guess the higher index panel resolution is just pushing too many pixels for the gpu's liking...

    Anyone try Lone Echo with similar specs? I really want to play through the campaign but if motion smoothing is going to be on 100% of the time I don't really feel like that's worth $45

    Thanks in advance!

    __________________

    - and my reply o:) 
    "You need to turn off temporal antialiasing (TAA), because that'll look super-blurry using the Index. Problem is that you now need MSAA, and MSAA requires tons of gpu performance compared to TAA. An ideal solution would be 4xMSAA and SteamVR res 150+ %, but for that you'll need a 3080 Ti or maybe 4080 Ti ;-)
    If you deactivate MSAA (and of course TAA) and using 100% res the game performs great, but jaggies are everywhere.

    Lone Echo was made for CV1, and Lone Echo with CV1 truly shines using super sampling 2.0 and temporal antialiasing. For now I have not been able to achieve similar image quality and performance using the Index - but using at least 2080 Ti or 3080 Ti may help. I use an oc'ed GTX 1080. And I've got more than 2 years of experience optimizing Lone Echo ;-)"

    Not sure Lone Echo 2 will work any better on Index - and Rift-S will also have problems if TAA is needed again (TAA looks very blurry on current LCD hmds), while Quest + Oculus Link may shine. The Lone Echo 2 Trailer Experience looks nice using CV1, but it sure looks awful using the Index (and you've got no graphics setting in the trailer). Thus the final version will be interesting - and asw 2.0 may prove very important too ;)

    The problem is that although we all what high res and awesome games, just running good old Lone Echo using the CV1 ss 2.0 and TAA (and no MSAA) will require a faster video card than 2080 Ti, because not even 2080 Ti can get solid 90 fps under those conditions (as tested in here about a year ago in a different thread).
    Devs even had to disable shadows in Boneworks to get acceptable performance, lol. Getting 90 fps in Stormland with all settings maxed (including the dreaded real time shadows) and forcing ss 2.0 with CV1 may again require a 3080 Ti or the like... when Revive works with Stormland, I'm sure we'll hear a lot of Index users complain about how badly Stormland is optimized, lol.

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,564 Valuable Player
    Too bad VR isnt big enough to support two different products - one with OLED and one with LCD for different price points xD
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Mradr said:
    Too bad VR isnt big enough to support two different products - one with OLED and one with LCD for different price points xD

    That's why I'm thinking that Vive Pro with Knuckles may be close to an optimal solution for now - but then again you'll lack asw 2.0 and have reduced fov... 

    I've said it before - we need Index with Quest (or Vive Pro) displays and fully supported by Oculus software, how hard can that be? :D And again for some games the high res would still be a problem at least until we get the 3080 Ti...

    I'm sure Valve is aware of such performance problems and that's why I like seeing GTX 1060 6GB as the recommended card for Alyx - but Valve may be able to create performance like only previously seen in Lone Echo and maybe Stormland...  
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,564 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Soo many hardware improvements to be made in 2020 its hard to say what we will have by 2021. Even in 2021 another jump will happen from DDR4 to DDR5 and other PCI improvements and memory bandwidth. Next year will be the 7-10nm rush for GPU makers thus we should see some pretty big IPC gains of around 15-30%. With rumors of MCM designs to help with pricing and yields.

    Really, the big change will happen when AMD finally releases something that can support Variable Rate Shading. This will open the door for all VR headsets to go forth with hardware acceleration base Eye tracking and FOVR. Even static FOVR should improve by another 5-10%. Granted that isn't much - but free performance is free performance.
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,564 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Just to spark another thing (this is to spark conversation - I know these games are good products) - you know the games coming out for Index like Boneworks and HFA are not that important. Really, its the idea of the fact games CAN be made with VR in mind and the modding of HFA that will keep drawing in VR users instead. The tools to make good VR will now be in the hands of others as well exploring different use cases we can use VR and what can make a good game out of them. The main problem with VR in general from a dev stand point is just that it takes a long time to really throw a good VR games together and play well with what we have now and not just a modded VR addon. HFA is a door open for everyone to really start playing with VR and expanding on the power of others and improving on what we can have later. Wouldn't think moving a card board box would mean much until you do it in VR - and as a dev - who really has the time to program all the small details + still make and fill out the story.
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,576 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    Mradr said:
    Too bad VR isnt big enough to support two different products - one with OLED and one with LCD for different price points xD

    That's why I'm thinking that Vive Pro with Knuckles may be close to an optimal solution for now - but then again you'll lack asw 2.0 and have reduced fov... 

    I've said it before - we need Index with Quest (or Vive Pro) displays and fully supported by Oculus software, how hard can that be? :D And again for some games the high res would still be a problem at least until we get the 3080 Ti...

    I'm sure Valve is aware of such performance problems and that's why I like seeing GTX 1060 6GB as the recommended card for Alyx - but Valve may be able to create performance like only previously seen in Lone Echo and maybe Stormland...  
    I've said this before, but when I had an Index, the LCD screen didn't immerse me as much as my old CV1 did in some games. The Index showed much more detail and revaled a lot more flaws that kept telling my brain that this is a game and not real. Obviously this will be different for different people but that was my experience with it and I also wished it had more of a color pop but I found the colors good.

    I also agree that we don't have the one headset to rule them all yet. Index was quite disappointing to me personally in several areas but I still felt like it's the best overall package if you take cost out of it. (excluding pimax 8kx or more expensive headsets) At the 1k price tag it's a hard justification to make. It's absurd that the controllers cost what they do and have so many problems. I'm leaning to rebuying one but a part of me wants to just wait and see what's coming since my playtime is so low right now anyway. I have money set aside for a 3080Ti build (if it's a better jump than the 2080Ti). I may just wait until I get that and see where we are.

    Just to spark another thing (this is to spark conversation - I know these games are good products) - you know the games coming out for Index like Boneworks and HFA are not that important. Really, its the idea of the fact games CAN be made with VR in mind and the modding of HFA that will keep drawing in VR users instead. The tools to make good VR will now be in the hands of others as well exploring different use cases we can use VR and what can make a good game out of them. The main problem with VR in general from a dev stand point is just that it takes a long time to really throw a good VR games together and play well with what we have now and not just a modded VR addon. HFA is a door open for everyone to really start playing with VR and expanding on the power of others and improving on what we can have later. Wouldn't think moving a card board box would mean much until you do it in VR - and as a dev - who really has the time to program all the small details + still make and fill out the story.

    Yea, hopefully games like HFA can open the eyes of consumers and more people try VR. I'm not optimistic that we'll be leaving niche category anytime soon though. Hopefully Sony still follows through on a PSVR 2 to spark some more interest from the console side. Quest adding the ability to play from PC is also a great thing.

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    My Index Overload Management Gear™ just arrived!  B)










    Yup - the thumbstick clicks in all directions:D

    Hmmm, so now it's over using dirty non-Valve controllers with the Index!  o:)

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • MaxxgoldMaxxgold Posts: 498
    Trinity
    Spuzzum said:
    I'm in Van myself...Strathcona. Thanks for the review. I was considering it for the 120Hz, and originally the off-the-ear headphones sounded cool, but then I got to thinking that I'd just hear my fridge hum, and my neighbours' noise, taking me out of that immersion. I'm in a bachelor suite, with thin walls. I usually keep a spot fan running just for white noise to drown it out. And as cool as the Knuckles are, how much does it really add to the game to be able to use each finger individually? Except for hand gestures, not much. I'll pass.
    The totality of all the features of the Index are overwhelming. If you just look at the resolution alone, maybe it is not worth it, or, if you just look at the increased field of view alone, it might not be worth it, or, if you hear how amazing the sound alone is, it might not be worth it, or, if you only look at the increased frame rate of 120hz alone, it might not be worth it, or finally, if you were just getting the new controllers alone, it might not be worth it.

    But, all of that together is well worth it. I have mine running on a 2080ti and it runs 120hz, and that alone is game changing enough for me to justify the upgrade. My CV1 in comparison is a nausea, vomit inducing experience compared to the 120hz delivered by the Index. Combined with all the above enhancements, the Valve Index is worth every penny. The guy above seems to be factoring in the financial aspect of the value compared to the experience, and if you do that, then you really shouldn’t purchase the Valve Index. 

    Also, the sound is truly amazing, there isn’t a headset with more immersive sound that I have tried yet. 
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Firewatch is one of my favorite games - still sad to have finished it:


    Firewatch was made by Campo Santo Productions, which was later bought by ... Valve! Now it turns out that Campo Santo devs have helped making Alyx - and therefore had to put their other game In the Valley of the Gods on hold:
    "To fans looking forward to In the Valley of Gods, it’s probably clear that the optimistic “2019” at the end of the announcement trailer isn’t going to be accurate. In the end, Valve Time makes fools of us all. But yes, developers from the former Campo Santo team have joined other projects at Valve, including Half-Life: Alyx. As you can imagine, our experience in the first-person adventure genre is pretty relevant. You hear a lot about how at Valve you can work on what you want. It turns out that’s true, and there’s a lot of work available. As we integrated ourselves into Valve it became clear there was a lot of valuable work to be done on Half-Life: Alyx. Some of us starting lending a hand, and have since become full-time on the project as it approaches launch. Similarly, some ex-Campos are working on Dota Underlords, some are on Steam, and so on. So to answer your question as of today, In the Valley of Gods development is on hold—but it certainly feels like a project people can and may return to. And when that happens, we’ll find an exciting way to let fans know."
    https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/12/04/firewatch-devs-put-in-the-valley-of-gods-on-hold/#more-764541
    I'm still thinking that one flagship may a be new game not associated to existing franchises, but although In the Valley of the Gods does look great and could work well in VR, I doubt it'll be one of the flagships...


    Reading that Campo Santo devs are working on Alyx did make Alyx sound even more interesting to me - I'd love a great story beyond shooting stuff ;)

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    Maxxgold said:
    Spuzzum said:
    I'm in Van myself...Strathcona. Thanks for the review. I was considering it for the 120Hz, and originally the off-the-ear headphones sounded cool, but then I got to thinking that I'd just hear my fridge hum, and my neighbours' noise, taking me out of that immersion. I'm in a bachelor suite, with thin walls. I usually keep a spot fan running just for white noise to drown it out. And as cool as the Knuckles are, how much does it really add to the game to be able to use each finger individually? Except for hand gestures, not much. I'll pass.
    The totality of all the features of the Index are overwhelming. If you just look at the resolution alone, maybe it is not worth it, or, if you just look at the increased field of view alone, it might not be worth it, or, if you hear how amazing the sound alone is, it might not be worth it, or, if you only look at the increased frame rate of 120hz alone, it might not be worth it, or finally, if you were just getting the new controllers alone, it might not be worth it.

    But, all of that together is well worth it. I have mine running on a 2080ti and it runs 120hz, and that alone is game changing enough for me to justify the upgrade. My CV1 in comparison is a nausea, vomit inducing experience compared to the 120hz delivered by the Index. Combined with all the above enhancements, the Valve Index is worth every penny. The guy above seems to be factoring in the financial aspect of the value compared to the experience, and if you do that, then you really shouldn’t purchase the Valve Index. 

    Also, the sound is truly amazing, there isn’t a headset with more immersive sound that I have tried yet. 

    Fully agree that the sum of its parts makes Index a true gen 2 compared to CV1, although I still find CV1 of great use in many games. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • parsecnparsecn Posts: 104
    Art3mis
    I must say, I'm 3 hours in and a little miffed with the Index experience so far. So far I owned Gear VR, Google Daydream, Rift, Rift S, a Quest, and now an Index, and I was expecting more. 

    I can appreciate that you're well versed in VR demonstrated in ownership of multiple headsets eg you know what you're doing, but I so often see these 2 or 3 hour-in knee-jerk Index reviews where the user hasn't fully dialed-in display or really grabbed the sweet spot, SS, etc. 

    They'll often come back and edit the post to say that the thing is amazing and that it took time to settle in. I hope this is the case with your purchase.  
    Maxxgold said:
    The totality of all the features of the Index are overwhelming.

    Combined with all the above enhancements, the Valve Index is worth every penny. The guy above seems to be factoring in the financial aspect of the value compared to the experience, and if you do that, then you really shouldn’t purchase the Valve Index. 

    The totality comment is spot on. It's a sharp perspective and sums the device well.

    I also appreciate the comment of financial aspect vs value compared to experience. I haven't sort of figured out how to word that concept well and respectfully, and I do think it's an important one that you've also summed well. To my mind, $1000 dollars is not some Herculean investment in VR, even if you've heavily invested in something like CV1 with 4 sensors and multiple games, etc. 

  • Comrade_IvanComrade_Ivan Posts: 86
    Hiro Protagonist
    RuneSR2 said:
    You can check in SteamVR that all button presses register. According to Valve, thumbstick pressed down may not click, but it must register. 
    It does register. But there's a definitive asymmetry in the behavior of the left controller when compared to the right one. My right controller clicks in every position. My left one clicks in all positions except left.

    Valve's claim that tactile click absence is an expected behavior was a BS excuse on the Index launch - an "oh crap, what do we tell everyone" reaction to realization they may be facing a massive recall. This was demonstrated by the fact that some people had working controllers, while others had either symmetric or asymmetric click responses.

    If it is indeed intended, they did a poor job of making good on their intent, cause the click feature somehow did make it on my right controller just fine.

    What's the cost of the pair of knuckles in the USA? Where I am they sell for mere 360 Canadian pesos. So yeah; Valve needs to fix this.

    Heck, if I bought a car, and my turn signal didn't click, no amount of convincing that it's a designed feature would fly. Clicking of the turn signal is a standard feature, in spite of the fact that relays are extinct these days (that is what did the clicking in the decades before digital tech made it into our dashboards). Some car manufacturers even give users an option to have the sound turned off, but the click is still a standard feature that's on by default. Much like clicking on even the cheapest of the no-name gaming controllers.

    Few months ago, my second Quest arrived with a dead green subpixel in my right eye (actually a "live" one cause it was always on). It wasn't a big deal cause I'd only see it when a scene went completely black, and even then barely so - a subpixel is a tiny fraction of a pixel, and is super hard to notice on its own. But Oculus replaced my headset, no questions asked. And this is for a VR kit that's a fraction of a price of the Index.
  • Comrade_IvanComrade_Ivan Posts: 86
    Hiro Protagonist
    Sorry for ranting, Rune. It's not your fault, and totally not aimed at you. I got irked when Valve first tried to spin the clickgate, but I had no skin in the game back then so I stayed on the sidelines and watched.

    But now I do (have skin in the game). Fifteen hundred bucks and a faulty controller later, I got triggered when the memory of their shitty PR got jogged.
  • Comrade_IvanComrade_Ivan Posts: 86
    Hiro Protagonist
    Does anyone know if there are any plans for the development of ASW-like tech for Index? 

    I'm aware that ASW is Oculus' baby and as such, FB has the tech patented. But surely Valve could take the idea and create their own solution
  • parsecnparsecn Posts: 104
    Art3mis
    Sorry for ranting, Rune. It's not your fault, and totally not aimed at you. I got irked when Valve first tried to spin the clickgate, but I had no skin in the game back then so I stayed on the sidelines and watched.

    But now I do (have skin in the game). Fifteen hundred bucks and a faulty controller later, I got triggered when the memory of their shitty PR got jogged.

    No, you're not ranting. Let me try. :)

    It's fine and, while I'm not Rune,  I am completely understanding and empathetic to the bum feeling of spending money (any money) for something that is effectively broken or lame OOTB. The corporate spin is additional salt in the wound and anyone with half a brain sees right through it. It's corporate mitigation. It's poor PR, as you say.

    Index is a very cool step-forward, but not a unit without shortcomings. 

    Hell, I live in Australia where they are yet to even sell the Index and am completely versed in click-gate, drift-gate, the occasional lighthouse noise fault, etc. and even-so I'm completely prepared to order and self-repair and not even bother to RMA due to turn-around time and general PITA.

    I get it. You shouldn't have to self-repair or RMA, especially at what many consider a premium price point. And yes, by principle, you should RMA even if it takes three or four attempts, like (arguable) YT infulencers.

    It's so boring. Just self-fix the shi* and move on. 

    The thing is, You're not self-repairing or modifying a Takata airbag. You're adding a 1mm bearing to fudge the thumbstick height so that it has click purchase. Or, you're tweaking that height to relieve pressure from the upper cup assembly which is catching and causing drift (or you're simply dry lubricating it). There are tutorials on YT with persons properly fixing these controllers in a matter of 15 minutes. A bearing from the front of a Bic ball point pen, down the thumbstick shaft is the preferred riser as can be readily removed and is exacting in height (to resolve lack of click in any direction). 
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Valve just made it possible (SteamVR Beta 1.9.7) to change refresh rates on the fly - that is without having to restart SteamVR. This is a rather huge improvement, but it'll require Forceware 441+ and me to leave my trusty 417 driver, which right now works perfectly in all my games and earlier was recommended by Valve as the most stable driver for the Index (but that was some months ago):



    https://steamcommunity.com/games/250820/announcements/detail/1714113379461314416

    Regarding the non-clicking thumbsticks I'm thinking it may be a lack of QC at the factory in China. Indices are made in China and shipped out, and I don't think Valve can inspect received packages without ruining the packaging - but that's just a theory. It's hard to tell if the issue has been fixed, because when ordering it's impossible to tell exactly which warehouse you got the kit from and if you got a kit from old or new stock - at least I've seen no convincing reports on how to tell new stock from old stock. Again the new controller I got through RMA works perfectly - for now. I'd probably be careful trying to fix an Index controller myself - unless you don't care about the warranty and accept the risk of having to spend $300 for new ones. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    Does anyone know if there are any plans for the development of ASW-like tech for Index? 

    I'm aware that ASW is Oculus' baby and as such, FB has the tech patented. But surely Valve could take the idea and create their own solution

    Index has Motion Smoothing which (unless they just fixed that) requires Forceware. I've tried it, but it's nowhere near as good as ASW2.0. Using ASW2.0 many movements feel like solid 90 fps - to a degree where I can't tell the difference at all (like strafing next to a wall, fast hand movements still easily show if ASW is on or not, but the latter is no big deal to me, at least not in Lone Echo or Stormland). 
    The lack of ASW2.0 does mean that in order to drive to Index, compared to CV1, you need sufficient gpu power for the 80% higher res and you need the gpu power to secure at least 90 fps. Using CV1 in the more demanding games 45 fps and asw work well, but several very demanding games like Obduction simply don't work well using the Index, at least not using the graphics settings I'd like to use.
    That said most of my Index games work great using my oc'ed GTX 1080 - and in several more simple games I can even get solid 90 fps using Index res 200%. Demanding games like Asgard's Wrath, Lone Echo and Seeking Dawn are - using my current rig - best played using CV1 where 45 fps really isn't a problem. 

    BTW, I've been forcing ss 2.0 with CV1 for years - that means it's probably much easier for me to use the Index, because Index res 100% requires less gpu power than CV1 ss 2.0. This mean that in games where I can't increase Index res (UE4 games like Hellsplit and Adr1ft) I'm getting much better performance with Index res 100% than CV1 ss 2.0. And Index res 100% looks better than CV1 ss 2.0. So the change to Index wasn't that hard for me ;)
    For users of GTX 1080 Index works great in 90 fps - but problems may arise if you want 120+ Hz or super sampling above res 100%, because lack of asw introduces severe ghosting or stuttering if the Index doesn't get 1:1 Hz:fps-ratio)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • Comrade_IvanComrade_Ivan Posts: 86
    Hiro Protagonist
    edited December 2019
    K, here I thought I knew what I was talking about... until I read the word  forceware, that is.
    Need 'splaining pls
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    RuneSR2 said:
    My Index Overload Management Gear™ just arrived!  B)










    Yup - the thumbstick clicks in all directions:D

    Hmmm, so now it's over using dirty non-Valve controllers with the Index!  o:)


    Lol - Tyriel got one too - some of us may spend way too much time checking posts on Index Reddit - but those who don't may not be fast enough to get the cheap stuff :blush: 



    My second one has also arrived! 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    RuneSR2 said:
    On Oculus subReddit some dude asked using a strawpoll "on which headset will you play half life Alyx"? The results are quite strange - note this is from the main Oculus subReddit forum:


    https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/e1cnff/strawpoll_on_which_headset_will_you_play_half/

    The top three hmds are all non-Oculus hmds. In fact more than 75 % is made up of Index + Vive + WMR + Pimax! 

    Kinda makes you wonder how many users who don't own an Oculus hmd are active in the Oculus subReddit... Hmmmm, btw, for long I've also been thinking that there's something strange and peculiar about the men in this video... ;)


    Now more than 5,000 votes:


    Seems to be (close to) the final results - remember these results are from the Oculus subReddit. Rift-S has fewer votes than the old HTC Vive - quite strange. Only 1 out of 3 seems to be using an Oculus hmd - which is close to the number of users who'll use the Index (=30%). Surprisingly WMR users even are more numerous than Rift-S users, who'd have thought that was possible? Reverb domination? 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • kojackkojack Posts: 5,949 Volunteer Moderator
    edited December 2019

    K, here I thought I knew what I was talking about... until I read the word  forceware, that is.
    Need 'splaining pls
    Forceware was the old name used for Nvidia drivers.
    So I'm guessing the features mentioned above in relation to Forceware don't work on AMD GPUs.

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    kojack said:

    K, here I thought I knew what I was talking about... until I read the word  forceware, that is.
    Need 'splaining pls
    Forceware was the old name used for Nvidia drivers.
    So I'm guessing the features mentioned above in relation to Forceware don't work on AMD GPUs.

    My mistake - I keep referring to Nvidia driver as Forceware, which of course was associated to GeForce - but love that name, kinda reminds me of the force in Star Wars, lol

    Image result for forceware nvidia
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    Welcome to Japan!  B)


    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player

    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 4,345 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    Kinda the perfect Saturday. Went to a nice restaurant with the family, then we saw the 4K cartoon version of Dr. Seuss' the Grinch and it was an absolutely awesome Christmas movie. Then 37 min ago I was informed our lastest study has been accepted for publication - not a big study, but still great news, and a great surprise on a Saturday evening:

    Dear Dr. Rasmussen

    I am pleased to inform you that the reviews of your submitted article have been very positive and they recommend accepting the manuscript without change. I am delighted to accept it for publication in Topics in Stroke Rehabilitation. It was accepted on 07 Dec 2019.

    Thank you for submitting your work to Topics in Stroke Rehabilitation.

    With best wishes,

    Elliot J. Roth, MD
    Editor-In-Chief

    - then just I saw several great reviews for Boiling Steel - it does look great (and potentially awesome), I'm downloading now for the Index  o:)


    Get it here:

    https://store.steampowered.com/app/1016860/Boiling_Steel/
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • Shadowmask72Shadowmask72 Posts: 3,983 Valuable Player
    edited December 2019
    I'd say the WMR presence in the survey is most likely because you can actually pick up these headsets quite cheaply as well as having the Reverb. It encompasses far more variety of headsets compared to the other groups which make sense then why it's in 2nd place. Congrats Rune. We just went to see Jumanji 2 which is quite nice family entertainment.


    System Specs: RTX 2080 ti , i9 9900K CPU, 16 GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 10 64 Bit OS.
Sign In or Register to comment.