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Oculus CV1 Warranty Mod?

kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,241 Valuable Player
There have been some suggestions of modd'ing the CV1 to extend its life after the inevitable.

Would there be interest to extend the life rather than compromise with the alternatives?


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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    edited February 16
    To me that would be a yes - CV1 strengths are oled, even the SDE (making low-res textures look more high-res by fooling our brains), sound, tracking and comfort. And using GTX 1080/RTX 2060 many users can increase CV1 supersampling to 2.0 to get optimal image quality - also thanks to ASW 2.0. 
    I prefer CV1 to Index in many games - because there's no doubt in my mind that CV1 delivers a better total experience in dark games like Saints and Sinners than any lcd hmd can do. And CV1 shines in games using temporal antialiasing (TAA) - try Robinson the Journey and compare CV1 TAA to any lcd hmd, of course feel free to use other kinds of antialiasing for the lcd, it won't make much difference ;)

    When you can't use temporal antialiasing anymore, you're in a world of jaggies - needing either a lot of much more gpu intensive (non-temporal) antialiasing. Even the CV1 SDE helps reducing jaggies, while more subpixels enhance jaggies - and I just saw this fresh example - corresponding to my experiences with the Index:

    Rift S Graphics

    I've had some work on my teeth recently so haven't been feeling up to VR for a while. I decided to try it out over the weekend and noticed in the games I tried, I saw more aliasing/jaggies unless they were always there?
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,241 Valuable Player
    Yes @RuneSR2 - that seems to be the feeling.
    Obviously the CV1 has its issues, but it got a lot right. Sadly the team behind this system has been fragmented, and a lot of the lessons learned have moved on to other companies, but I think there is still a core design that deserves a second outing - both ergonomically and operationally. If OculusVR is un-will or unable to create a CV2 in the medium-term, the modding of existing hardware seems the only other possibility (as seen adding the HTC DAS to the Quest).  

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    ** Second New Book **
    "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities"
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    edited February 16
    Just to explain why the SDE may be of benefit with the CV1 (or better Vive Pro or full res Quest if you have a very fast video card) - because many do not like the oled SDE. 

    Basically you could say this is the image quality using no SDE and with max subpixels - you now see everything - like using newer lcd hmds:



    - better see the image here: https://i.imgur.com/edMo3EJ.png

    - and this would be close to using oled with SDE:



    - see the correct image here (the image gets compressed when shown in this thread): https://i.imgur.com/Ycf6qv8.jpg

    Some may say that the CV1 SDE isn't completely like scanlines, but I'd say the above shots with and without scanlines are very close to the image quality difference I get in Stormland comparing CV1 ss 2.0 TAA vs. Index res 100-150% SMAA. It looks so much more pixelated using Index, in part because temporal antialiasing is a no-go using lcd hmds. 
    In Lone Echo I needed like Index res 150% and 4xMSAA to get something that looked barely like CV1 ss 2.0 TAA - but using Index my performance was now like 15-20 fps  :#

    Try Kobold, it's a cheap game and thus perfect just for making comparisons, now enter the staircase in the start of the game and check out the railing. The difference using CV1 and lcd is striking! CV1 looks so much better with the textures, while lcd reveals all flaws and destroys the immersion. 

    It's time to learn how to love the CV1 SDE - in some games ;)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 810
    3Jane
    Yeah i would mod my CV1 now it is out of warrenty to keep it working, and i have in a way already started to do it by having the sliding part of the headstrap fixed in position with some old electrical tape to keep the earphone working.
  • dburnedburne Posts: 3,673 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    RuneSR2 said:

    It's time to learn how to love the CV1 SDE - in some games ;)


    Can't see that happening , at least on my end.
    CV1 is so - yesteryear...
    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    edited February 16
    The only thing Oculus needed to do was to put the Quest display into the CV1 - and then call it CV2, Rift-S or whatever.

    They did not need to change anything else - or maybe provide one model with internal tracking and one with external tracking so people could choose. Make a modular approach much like Valve is doing now and make it easy for users to upgrade only needed parts.  

    It would effectively be like the Vive Pro - but possibly with slightly better sound and much better controllers. And the design - I still think the original design is beyond awesome  <3


    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,171 Valuable Player
    edited February 16
    RuneSR2 said:
    The only thing Oculus needed to do was to put the Quest display into the CV1 - and then call it CV2, Rift-S or whatever.

    They did not need to change anything else - or maybe provide one model with internal tracking and one with external tracking so people could choose. Make a modular approach much like Valve is doing now and make it easy for users to upgrade only needed parts.  

    It would effectively be like the Vive Pro - but possibly with slightly better sound and much better controllers. And the design - I still think the original design is beyond awesome  <3



    Totally agree with this but there's a large conundrum to solve. Oculus expected to sell CV1 to the masses and unfortunately I don't think that happened. They then concentrated more on Oculus Quest to get more people into VR, while also lowering the cost of stand alone PC -VR, to see if that would create more sales. Unfortunately, I don't think the Rift S even at a much lower price has sold to the masses either. Infact some people felt the Rift S was a downgrade and some people (myself included) are just hoping we can repair faults with the CV1 until a proper upgrade comes along.

    I'm currently using bluetooth headphones on my CV1 because as you know my headphones became faulty, but the cable issue is a big problem and it will be hard to swallow if that starts to fault because it's no-longer available.

    I would loved to have seen Oculus do what you said here @RuneSR2, and I do worry where stand alone PC -VR will end up now. A CV1 with Quest displays might sell to the masses, but are Oculus willing to take the risk and produce one? Even if it's not a CV1 are they willing to bring out a Rift S Pro with better displays and headphones? I'm not sure that can happen without Sony's approval though due to the Halo design. 

    Right now I have no idea what Oculus plan for the future regarding standalone PC -VR. The Oculus Quest seems to be selling well, so is stand alone PC -VR something Oculus are still even interested in now. If they are then I'm with you and would definitely purchase a Rift S Pro with higher res Oled displays and headphones. Hell, I'd even buy one with higher res Lcd display's. 

    Edit: Just totally ruined any chance of my headphones working again with my CV1. I used a dremel to try and make a line for the new wire to go into the headphone easier instead of trying to trap it, but I went right through the metal where the headphone connect and right through to the plastic  :(:):D
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    edited February 16
    You're of course right @RedRizla, Oculus does not want to please high-end feinschmeckers, they want 1 billion people in VR. Completely  removing system requirements, cumbersome external tracking and headphones that get into long and curly hair with Quest is of course one method, but maybe when Ampere arrives gpus will be so powerful and cheap that performance at the GTX 1060 level, and thereby access to PCVR, will be very affordable. 
    Although we may feel VR is old and started years ago, Alyx could mark the true beginning. 

    We have long been dreaming of better headsets, still installing a CV1 and starting Lone Echo with max details, but no MSAA will require more gpu power than even a 2080 Ti can provide in order to get solid 90 fps. I'm easily down to 22 fps in Xing CV1 ss 2.0. And remember Subnautica, lol. I can probably find games where CV1 ss 2.0 will have 3080 Ti gasping for air. 

    I don't have solid 90 fps in either Saints & Sinners nor Stormland using CV1 ss 2.0, but asw 2.0 saves me. It a great misunderstanding that CV1 is too old like I often hear on Reddit, in fact I consider the CV1 just right for the majority of current gaming rigs. And although I can use Index perfectly in many games, it's not a great choice for the very demanding games like Stormland and Seeking Dawn - for those games CV1 is still needed for optimal image quality and performance. And I guess that's why this thread is important.
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,171 Valuable Player
    edited February 16
    @RuneSR2 - I'll go back to something I said once before and that is Oculus would do well to make both a low end PC -VR headset and also a higher end one. That way you cater for everyone and if this fails then I give up trying to work out how to make VR more successful. I don't have problems with 2k per eye using my 2080ti and I also hear 1080ti users also get by using the HP Reverb too. The higher the restitution the less need for Super Sampling which is a resource hogg.

    Samsung don't just make cheap televisions because not everyone likes cheap. They cater for everyone so that they don't miss out on potential customers. With my 2080ti I'm obviously looking for a VR headset with much higher Resolution then Rift S has to offer. That's why I purchased a HP Reverb, but sadly it's not great for room scale. My worry is I'm just not sure what is going to happen regarding PC -VR. Nobody seems to be talking about PC -VR much at all now. I just hope I hear something more this year.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    According to this article, PCVR has never been doing better, I'm very positive when it comes to the future of PCVR:

    https://www.roadtovr.com/2019-major-inflection-point-vr-heres-proof/

    Again, Alyx will be a great experiment - if the game gets awesome reviews, I think this could be the biggest platform push ever. I know that Lone Echo, Asgard's Wrath and Stormland are beyond awesome, but these games probably don't resonate much with 2D gamers. But everyone knows and loves Half-Life, it can't get any bigger? Ok, maybe if GTA 6 was VR exclusive, lol.
    I've read about many persons buying a hmd just for Alyx. And we still get 2 more games from Valve, and Oculus is delivering Lone Echo 2 and Medal of Honor later this year (hopefully), and now I hear Population One is coming and looks like one of the best PCVR games ever. 
    And if the Lone Echo 2 trailer experience represents final game quality, this game may look best using an oled display ;)
    You should really get Stormland and give it a try, isn't the game 25% off right now - or you could try it for one hour and then refund just to test Reverb vs CV1. I just played Stormland this evening, it's simply amazing. Using CV1 ss 2.0 and 2080 Ti I think you'll get solid 90 fps using TAA and Ultra settings (if not, deactivate real time shadows). 
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    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,171 Valuable Player
    edited February 16
    @RuneSR2 - Good to know PC -VR sales are doing much better, but what I'm saying is who going to be making the next PC -VR headset? I'm talking about the next upgrade because I don't hear anyone talking about it? Oculus used to to talk about PC -VR, but they don't seem to talk about at their shows now. I'd just like to hear more talk about PC-VR is what I'm saying and what we can expect to see on the next PC -VR headset.

    I'd also like to know how long Oculus is going to continue to support outside in tracking for Oculuys CV1? We see updates to Rift S, but will one the updates suddenly make outside in tracking obsolete for Oculus CV1?
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    edited February 17
    Personally I'm fully convinced Gen2 arrived with the Index and apart from the WMR controllers, also with the Reverb. Pimax 8KX with Index controllers I'd consider a full blown Gen2 too - so not sure we really need more hmds if you're into high-end. That said I would have loved if Oculus had made the Index so I could get asw 2.0 support in exclusive Oculus titles - and of course they should use oled. 
    Having tried Boneworks and seeing the ultra-highres textures that simply felt real, I don't see any problem using the level of immersion for the next years to come. Main problem with Gen2 is the hardware requirements (and lack of content made from the ground up for high-res lcd hmds, if fact I think we only got Boneworks). While you have a high-end video card, only 0.7% of Steam users have a 2080 Ti. And Gen2 hmds generally being very expensive - and requiring a high-end rig - limit adoption a lot. That's why it's great to keep the CV1 alive until 1 or 2 generations of new gpus have arrived, especially when CV1 still shines due to oled, sound, performance, controllers and tracking. And new gpus won't just make CV1 obsolete, but allow for solid 90 fps even when using very high levels of super sampling - like @TomCgcmfc said, CV1 ss 2.0 may not be far from the default image quality of the new more high-res lcd hmds. 

    There may be close to 2 mill CV1s out there, Oculus wants as many in VR as possible, I don't think they'll cut CV1 support for the next several years - that would work against their vision.

    PS. Even GearVR still works fine as long as you're using the supported hardware, not sure Oculus is known for stopping users from using the hardware (or software) that was supported when the users bought it - several new GearVR games arrived in February 2020, the Store is still being updated with fresh GearVR titles:

    https://www.oculus.com/experiences/gear-vr/section/1431986220442261#/?_k=k9hsqc

    GearVR driver support has been stopped by Oculus it seems:

    https://uploadvr.com/gear-vr-sdk-support-dropped/ 

    Even if CV1s were cut from further driver support, I'd expect them to work with the titles that supported CV1s until driver support ended - which would be thousands of games and apps. For now I don't worry about CV1 support (but I do worry about failing headphones or cables that cannot easily be replaced, so I take great care of my CV1s). 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    edited April 11
    In fact - when playing a game like Kobold, which has some low-res textures, I'll say the difference beween having CV1 black oled and scanlines-like SDE vs. Index is pretty close to this:

     
    So pick your poison carefully, lol. The above image is Metal Slug on a good old CRT vs. 4K LCD. 

    Btw - or this ... CV1 always to the left ;)



    Now this won't be a problem for the Index or Rift-S (lcd + subpixels), when all games are like Alyx and Boneworks, but right now about 98% of my VR games have not reached that level of quality and never will - because they were made in a time where CV1 and Vive ruled the world. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 810
    3Jane
    ^^^It is weird to think that a third party like steam will be supporting VR hardware long after the company who made it have dropped support for it, hence why i hum and ho over touching anything else Oculus and why i hope my Cv1 and Vive last until at least until 2022, which by then i think we will see a lot more third party VR hardware on the market for consumer choice.
  • NetheriNetheri Posts: 400
    Trinity
    @RuneSR2 "Some may say that the CV1 SDE isn't completely like scanlines, but I'd say the above shots with and without scanlines are very close to the image quality difference I get in Stormland comparing CV1 ss 2.0 TAA vs. Index res 100-150% SMAA. It looks so much more pixelated using Index, in part because temporal antialiasing is a no-go using lcd hmds. 
    In Lone Echo I needed like Index res 150% and 4xMSAA to get something that looked barely like CV1 ss 2.0 TAA - but using Index my performance was now like 15-20 fps  "

    What happens in Stormland and in Lone Echo, if you put the ASW and adaptive GPU Scaling "off"? Still 2.0 ss on 90Hz? Without the "cheats" on my rig starting from Home environment, the max SS for 90Hz is 1.3, on Vader Immortals with graph high settings the max is 1.4SS (and a big doubt that that on that one scene there will be a still show).  Of course, on programs like Big Screen i can bring the SS up a lot, but it's a bit different environment. The Climb with Crytek engine offer in-game SS and that i can put to 1.70-1.75 SS when the headroom is about 0 with temporal AA in 7 and ssao & shadows on medium/low what ever the lowest setting was before "off".

    If i.e. The Climb was to be streamed i.e. to Twitch,  there'll be a huge lag on the encode if only one PC is used. Of course that ain't a problem with using dedicated stream PC with NDI or with Capture card.
    [email protected] 5/4.9GHz, ASUS Rog Strix 2080 Super OC , Corsair 32gb 3000MHz DDR4, ROG Strix Z370 H Gaming, 1 x Inateck 4 port USB 3.0 card, 2x3.1 USB, 6x3.0 USB on mobo, 1x USB-C on G-card.
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  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    Netheri said:
    @RuneSR2 "Some may say that the CV1 SDE isn't completely like scanlines, but I'd say the above shots with and without scanlines are very close to the image quality difference I get in Stormland comparing CV1 ss 2.0 TAA vs. Index res 100-150% SMAA. It looks so much more pixelated using Index, in part because temporal antialiasing is a no-go using lcd hmds. 
    In Lone Echo I needed like Index res 150% and 4xMSAA to get something that looked barely like CV1 ss 2.0 TAA - but using Index my performance was now like 15-20 fps  "

    What happens in Stormland and in Lone Echo, if you put the ASW and adaptive GPU Scaling "off"? Still 2.0 ss on 90Hz? Without the "cheats" on my rig starting from Home environment, the max SS for 90Hz is 1.3, on Vader Immortals with graph high settings the max is 1.4SS (and a big doubt that that on that one scene there will be a still show).  Of course, on programs like Big Screen i can bring the SS up a lot, but it's a bit different environment. The Climb with Crytek engine offer in-game SS and that i can put to 1.70-1.75 SS when the headroom is about 0 with temporal AA in 7 and ssao & shadows on medium/low what ever the lowest setting was before "off".

    If i.e. The Climb was to be streamed i.e. to Twitch,  there'll be a huge lag on the encode if only one PC is used. Of course that ain't a problem with using dedicated stream PC with NDI or with Capture card.
    I don't think I ever tried that - I use Oculus Tray Tool and set a global ss to 2.0, then I make profiles for some games like Asgard's Wrath needing less than ss 2.0. In Stormland I depend on asw 2.0 - otherwise I think the game would be unplayable using ss 2.0. So I usually get 45 fps x 2 (asw 2.0) - according to the OTT Pixel Density HUD I'm getting ss 2.0, and it's also quite easy to see (image is a lot sharper). 

    I fully agree that if wanted solid 90 fps in demanding games, I'd have to lower ss a lot - but I greatly prefer the image quality of ss 2.0, and I don't mind 45 fps asw 2.0, really feels like solid 90 fps in Stormland (unless I make very fast arm movements). Just remember to turn off real time shadows, or I can't even get 45 fps, lol. 

    Several games will work in solid 90 fps using ss 2.0 - like Beat Saber, Pistol Whip, Lucky's Tale, Transference, but again I consider asw 2.0 one of Oculus' biggest achievements, I'm not really interested in trying to deactivate it ;)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • NetheriNetheri Posts: 400
    Trinity
    edited April 11
    @RuneSR2
    Problem is- at least for me it has been- that when the Adaptive GPU Scale is on, it can't change the SS amount on the fly, the scene goes to still show until the Oculus is restarted from the Beta tab on desktop application. Then it lowers the SS to the amount the system can handle. And what ichecked from the logs, it's quite a much the same as 1.3SS (on my system, I'd think that with 2080ti it would a bit higher). That's with the [email protected]/5Ghz and Strix 2080 Super OC oc'd.  Although i started to think, that maybe the ASW must be enabled also for the GPU Scale to work, maybe it needs ASW to kick in so it can lower the SS on the fly. I haven't tested this.

    So  the SS really is much more demanding than one would think, it's just that when you throw in the big SS's on games and apps which have lots going on, the "cheats" go on and drop the SS and fps to level the system can handle it. I confirmed this also with the OTT performance HUD.

    But you're totally right in the needs of one. For me the 90fps (or near that) is the most important thing while i still can bring the clarity up. Of course, the fps limit cap in NVIDIA drivers give some headroom in system performance vice (as it affects the original render speed also), and when the DLSS2 gets to be supported on VR-titles we are getting even more performance headroom. CV1 can get even more usage time in the future through that.

    Edit: Could you test the games you mention with Adaptive GPU Scale off?  Are you still getting 2.0SS with 90 fps? Also could you test the SS 2.0 the same way on Home?  If you're still getting actual 2.0 SS with 90 fps i'd say my graphics card and cpu must be faulty, as i didn't get those number with the 1080 oc'd and with [email protected] before that either.

    [email protected] 5/4.9GHz, ASUS Rog Strix 2080 Super OC , Corsair 32gb 3000MHz DDR4, ROG Strix Z370 H Gaming, 1 x Inateck 4 port USB 3.0 card, 2x3.1 USB, 6x3.0 USB on mobo, 1x USB-C on G-card.
    Natively Homeless (2.0) Dash, it's a working victory!
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    I'm getting like ss 1.8 in Home due to Oculus forcing some sort of adaptive ss, even if OTT is set to force 2.0. But I'm getting solid ss 2.0 readings in my games from the OTT Pixel Density HUD. 

    The only software I'm using to modify is OTT - I think your fps numbers sound ok in Vader Immortal if you insist on solid 90 fps.  

    Have you tried to enable ss 2.0 and asw 2.0 to see if the fps hit really is that noticeable? If you use GTX 1080 like me, and you have a fast cpu - can't you get solid 90 fps in Lucky's Tale, Pistol Whip or Space Pirate Trainer - or Beat Saber - when forcing ss 2.0? - You should be able to get that -  especially if you leave everything at the default settings in the Oculus debug tool? 

    I'm not fond of spending much time on changing my setup as it works really great, but I'll be happy to check up on my OTT settings later. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • NetheriNetheri Posts: 400
    Trinity
    edited April 11
    @RuneSR2

    I don't have any of the games you mention but Lucky's Tale and that's also long time ago uninstalled. At the moment i mostly play The Thrill of The Fight started from the SteamVR side to get some 3rd party thingies on which Oculus prevents to use on it's environment with SS 1.7 as my system can take it on 90 fps, and The Climb which settings i told earlier. Of course if The CLimb were to be streamed the in-game SS should be lowered as there will be stutter on encode, no matter were the Nvenc New or x264 used. Crytek engine seems to be a "bit" power hungry hog...Big Screen beta can be driven at least with SS 1.7 with quite a much headroom still available.

    My SS on OTT were globally 1.7, ASW off (basically only in Home) but that made a still show every time, which only went away through Beta Tab restart (Adaptive GPU Scaling got to enable). Oculus support had no clue what was happening. Then, one night i started to go through Oculus logs and noticed, that after the restart the render resolution (the image which is then sent to Rift's screens) had dropped from the 1.7SS to about 1.3SS. After this, i found out the Adaptive GPU Scale on Debug Tool and found out, that it is the automatic thingie which drops or raises the SS level automatically depending on your rig (or it should, for me it couldn't and still can't do it's job on the fly).

    I put it to "off" (it's buggy on Debug Tool, it doesn't stay off and needs to be put off every time) and started now to test the _actual_ SS level the system can take. 

    Well for starters i dropped the SS to 1.0, no lag, stutter or still show on Home, so i knew i was on right track. I went through the "GPU Scale off (ASW is always off), raise the SS by 0.1, start HMD on, load Home, if no glitches, new round with 0.1 more SS untill the stutter starts". I ended on 1.3 for Home. 

    So for me the adaptive GPU Scale didn't do it's thing properly, it couldn't drop the SS to the level the system can handle it on my Home. This also carries a terrible lagging some times to games, if you have pulled out screen pinned on, when dash is activated. Don't knwo why but i suspect it's because the pinned windows are projected through "Home code" or something like that. After the test rounding i confirmed with performance hud, that the SS was 1.3 and the FPS stayed on 90 or close to that. The second the 1.4SS is put in, starts the stutter and even the "hands" are shaking. 

    And because of the surfaces amount on Vader Immortals ( SS being 1.4) i really doubt a bit, that even oc'd 1080gtx could take SS 2.0 on titles like Stormland or Lone Echo with headroom, even with asw enabled. I had 1080 earlier, and i know how much more there's oomph on 2080 or 2080ti. There should be and most definitely is adaptive GPU scale at work (and if there isn't any still shows going on the logical conclusion is that it needs ASW to be on for it to work on the fly).
    [email protected] 5/4.9GHz, ASUS Rog Strix 2080 Super OC , Corsair 32gb 3000MHz DDR4, ROG Strix Z370 H Gaming, 1 x Inateck 4 port USB 3.0 card, 2x3.1 USB, 6x3.0 USB on mobo, 1x USB-C on G-card.
    Natively Homeless (2.0) Dash, it's a working victory!
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,876 Valuable Player
    edited April 11
    Inserts Mradr's ramble that Quest will take over creating stand-alone-pc.. Quest-2-Go, Quest-2-Home, Quest-2-PC....

    Inset ramble of screen tech GO/Home will use fast switching LCD 2k or less, PC should get the OLED full RGB
    Inset ramble of render methods for PC will shift with PC getting some improvements if VR as a whole force DLSS2.0 + VRS + F/D-FOVR methods allowing higher res screens.
    Inset ramble of Oculus will continue to stream line the products to help curve cost and complexity. 
    Inset ramble of customers only see final price and if you have to buy something else then its just too costly for them.
    Inset ramble of customers like it simple - one package - no multi camera setup - just put it on and work even if you don't get all the features.
    Inset ramble of Oculus will remove some features from Quest OG when Quest-2-Home comes out such as adjustable IPD - dual screens to one screen, etc.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    edited April 11
    Just to describe my OTT settings - these are the only ones I use:



    Haven't upgraded to the lastest version, because v. 0.84.1 seems to work perfectly with all current games. For profiles I've found that using Timer may be important for the profile settings to properly register, but may be a problem limited to Seeking Dawn. This is my profile for Asgard's Wrath where I need to lower ss to 1.8 to get 45 fps asw 2.0:



    If possible - do try Lucky's Tale - it should be free in the store and using the above settings (Global Super Sampling 2.0) you must be able to get solid 90 fps using a GTX 1080 - and even more using RTX 2080 Super. Otherwise something is wrong - but there have been a few persons getting low performance in Alyx with 2080 cards, although I considered that some weird kind of SteamVR anomaly...  
    In fact both Tom and I can run Lucky's Tale in solid 90 fps even using ss 2.5. And you can see the ss 2.5 resulting in slightly sharper text in Dash (look at the tiny text describing the date) - compared to ss 2.0. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • NetheriNetheri Posts: 400
    Trinity
    @RuneSR2 I had the Lucky for a while 2 years a go but it's not my game :) . I would rather still see, what happens if you put the ASW off and leave the GPU Scale to "default" which is "on". Would you get still show. And after that, if you put both of them off, what would be the real SS multiplier on which the game works 45 or even 90 fps with headroom and isn't laggin/stuttering at all. Still won't believe that 1080 is more powerful than 2080 Super.
    [email protected] 5/4.9GHz, ASUS Rog Strix 2080 Super OC , Corsair 32gb 3000MHz DDR4, ROG Strix Z370 H Gaming, 1 x Inateck 4 port USB 3.0 card, 2x3.1 USB, 6x3.0 USB on mobo, 1x USB-C on G-card.
    Natively Homeless (2.0) Dash, it's a working victory!
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    edited April 12
    Of course a 2080 Super should be like 30% faster than 1080, I'll see how low I need to go to get solid 90 fps in Vader later - I'll test in the start of the game, but having no standard benchmark will of course make it difficult to really compare rigs. I'll try Stormland too. 
    Again, probably some random anomalies, but during the last day I noticed some posts from 2080 owners seemingly having performance problems, like:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/fyv2bg/low_performance_on_2080_super/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/fzil2z/help_i_keep_getting_lod_level_of_detailtexture/

    I have not noticed anything similar on my rig. 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 2,275 Valuable Player
    Rune, lets just stick together and wait for the rtx3080ti, lol!

    Custom built gaming desktop; i9 9900k (water cooled) oc to 5ghz, gtx 1080 ti, 32 gb 3000hz ram, 1 tb ssd, 4 tb hdd.  Asus  ROG Maximus xi hero wifi mb, StarTech 4 port/4 controller sata powered usb3.0 pcie card, PCI-E PCI Express to USB 3.1 Gen 2 card, Asus VG248QE 1080p 144hz gaming monitor, Oculus Rift cv1 w/2x sensors, Vive Pro w/2.0 base stations/controllers, Quest w/Link and VD wireless (good/close 5Ghz wifi and PC with Ethernet cable to my Router).

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    edited April 12
    TomCgcmfc said:
    Rune, lets just stick together and wait for the rtx3080ti, lol!

    That's my plan ;) - And maybe then I can finally play Lone Echo ss 2.0 in solid 90 fps using the CV1, lol
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    edited April 12
    Just tested Stormland and I don't think I need to test Vader, because Stormland is like a worst-case scenario, it's probably the most demanding game I own - thus results and tendencies should transfer nicely to Vader. 

    I'm at the start of some brownish desert-like world, I don't recall its name - violet shields protect some islands or whatever in the horizon. 

    ss 2.0 is a constant 45 fps - in fact it's a constant 45 fps down to ss 1.5. Ss 1.4 often goes to 90 fps, and ss 1.3 is quite solid 90 fps. Note I'm running Stormland using the highest possible settings, but I've deactivated real time shadows. 

    So everything above ss 1.3 in that game is 45 fps asw 2.0. It was fun to try ss 1.4, because it was very easy to compare 90 fps vs. 45 fps asw 2.0. And the difference is so minute I don't think most people would ever notice it. That's a testament to the true power of asw 2.0 - simply making your rig appear 100% faster than it is. Strafing left/right, or going forward/backward, feels the same no matter if it's true 90 fps or 45 fps - but fast hand movements aren't perfectly smooth in 45 fps compared to 90 (the arms in Stormland are quite twitchy, so perfectly smooth arm movements aren't that important).  . 

    Quite amazing that I can go from ss 1.4 to 2.0 and still maintain 45 fps - because the game will be (close to) unplayable if the 45 fps break, lol.

    We'll probably need a real monster of a gpu to get solid 90 fps in Stormland CV1 ss 2.0... Then again, if 3080 Ti is at least  100% faster than 1080... 

    In 1920x1080 the 2080 Ti is only about 50% faster than 1080, but in 4K the 2080 Ti is about 70% faster. Some results from Lone Echo may indicate that for VR the 1920x1080 pancake performance difference may represent real world differences better than 4K.. 

       Relative Performance 1920x1080
    Average results from 23 games using in-game activated antialiasing - https://www.techpowerup.com/review/nvidia-geforce-rtx-2080-ti-founders-edition/

    If these results also represents CV1 gaming, then 2080 is 30% faster than 1080 non-Ti and 2080 Ti is 50% faster - which will not result in more than 45 fps asw 2.0 in Stormland if you use my settings (deactivated real time shadows) and probably use more than ss 1.5 or 1.6... 

    If you play Stormland using the highest settings and activate real time shadows, ss 1.3 as the max for 90 fps sounds very reasonable. 

    When 2080 Ti arrived, we did some tests in Lone Echo indicating that I needed to reduce ss from 2.0 to 1.5 to get solid 90 fps, while 2080 Ti could get 90 fps using max ss 1.7. So we're all down to 45 fps in that game when using Lone Echo max settings (which automatically includes ss 2.0, because Lone Echo's in-game resolution scale goes to 2.0). Back then my conclusion was to wait for a gpu at least 100% faster than 1080, and that conclusion still stands.

    The above results from Stormland also show why it's nearly impossible to Revive the game using Index and get sufficient performance and image quality - even if you have a 2080 Ti - because now you don't have asw 2.0 and need all those 90 fps (= gpu demands may be 100% increased) - and the Index also has a 80 % higher hmd res than CV1... People often think I'm joking when I say I need a RTX 4080 or 5080 Ti to run Lone Echo using Index res 200 % and 4xMSAA (=optimal image quality using the Index), but I'm not joking, because right now I get like 15-20 fps trying to do that with my 1080, sigh...
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,876 Valuable Player
    edited April 12
    @RuneSR2 Some points if I can ask
    1) What about VRS? Granted I know you are targeting games that don't use it - but some of the performance numbers would very wildly depending on what you are really aiming for. VRS is only found on RTX thus if you are seeing numbers in the 20-30% you should see even higher ones with the technology closer to 30-40%. Thus a 2080S or TI might be more than enough really than waiting for the 3000s cards. Even then - you add in their percent that be close to 50-60% performance difference vs the 40-50% if you took raw performance.

    2) SS in terms of quality will very person to person - so in terms of performance will also very wildly to what someone might be ok with. Thus I think the testing by design might be a bit flaw?

    3) Future DLSS (3?) should also support VRS in the future. Right now I dont think they work together - as no title I know of supports both at the same time. If they do - we could see further improvements of another 10-15% on top of the numbers above as it renders lower then upscale from there still making the 2000s kind of the spot to be still. Again though, 3000s wont hurt to have either though as it should further the performance of the RTX scaling/performance.

    In all: VRS + DLSS = a generational stepping forward for VR instead of waiting for the next card. If a 2000s seems like it can almost do it - then when enabling one or the other - or even both - it should work just fine. Add in F/D-FOVR and we be cooking with some fire:3

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-YrdkazD5o
    https://developer.nvidia.com/vrworks/graphics/variablerateshading

    Inset ramble of render methods for PC will shift with PC getting some improvements if VR as a whole force DLSS2.0 + VRS + F/D-FOVR methods allowing higher res screens.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    edited April 12
    Mradr said:
    @RuneSR2 Some points if I can ask
    1) What about VRS? Granted I know you are targeting games that don't use it - but some of the performance numbers would very wildly depending on what you are really aiming for.
    2) SS in terms of quality will very person to person - so in terms of performance will also very wildly to what someone might be ok with. Thus I think the testing by design might be a bit flaw?

    Of course - if you're happy with ss 1.3 or 1.5 you may have no problems. My initial goal was to experience Lone Echo with nearly all details maxed in 90 fps (with TAA and no MSAA that is), but of course you can play just fine with less. 

    But if you - like me - don't mind 45 fps asw 2.0 - there might be no reason to stay with ss 1.5 45 fps asw 2.0 if you can get better image quality for "free", namely if you also get 45 fps asw 2.0 using ss 2.0 (or higher).

    And in many simple games you can get solid 90 fps using ss 2.0 with a GTX 1080 or similar gpus - and then why not go for the best possible image quality?  

    VRSS may of course be a good argument for RTX, agreed, but only few games seem to be supported - I haven't seen if it works with Revive and Gen2 hmds, where the increased image quality and performance may be needed the most. Boneworks VRSS support is often mentioned in VRSS reviews, but that might not be very important though, I already run that game in solid 90 fps using Index res 200% and 2xMSAA. 

    VRSS is one of the things I look forward to in Ampere (RTX 3080 series), but it's not going to get me to buy a 2080 Ti right now. Also Alyx performs like a dream using my humble GTX 1080, also reducing my need for a gpu upgrade. 

    Maybe we are getting slightly away from the subject of this thread - but at least we are discussing how to make the good old CV1 shine the most - and why we still appreciate being able to use the CV1 for a long time to come  :)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,876 Valuable Player
    edited April 12
    RuneSR2 said:
    Maybe we are getting slightly away from the subject of this thread - but at least we are discussing how to make the good old CV1 shine the most - and why we still appreciate being able to use the CV1  :)
    The problem is that - CV1 is showing signs of being dated though. So while there are ways to improve performance or to help improve its image quality to the user - it doesn't really effect all users though. Really I would argue the only reason to pick up the CV1 now is because you either got it on the cheap, you like the old tracking method (witch I am in that camp), or you are skipping Rift S for hopefully something a bit more of a jump (Also in that camp). The only reason you like to use SS + AA is because of the short comings on CV1 screens that could be replace right now with better OLED full range RGB thus removing half the performance problems while providing a better screen image.

    Really, if it is possible - at least for VR - having the ability to have more sub pixels/shorter space between pixels would without increasing the number of total total pixels would be the best answer. Sub pixels are "free" and represent a better value to what you are doing with SS. Then the answer for AA is VRS. The answer for more performance or to widen the hardware ability is DLSS that scales from 1080p | 1440p to 4k. More pixels + shorter space between pixels is the answer for better quality of image and FOV. Finally, the F/D-FOVR is the answer for rendering and controlling all the different methods that make the most sense for what the user is looking at - at a given time.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,612 Valuable Player
    edited April 12
    Mradr said:

    The only reason you like to use SS + AA is because of the short comings on CV1 screens that could be replace right now with better OLED full range RGB thus removing half the performance problems while providing a better screen image.

    Fully agree - I'd love for Oculus to put the Quest oled panels in a CV1 and call it a CV2 or whatever they like - no need to change headphones, tracking nor Touch! Oculus would be the king of price, image quality, performance and quality (=tracking + audio) by such a simple solution. 

    Btw, due to Alyx I've not been using CV1 for a few weeks, and going back to the CV1 SDE can be tough - but forcing very high levels of ss helps a lot - but we are spending an extreme amount of gpu power to make using an old Gen1 oled hmd bearable. I do doubt that many will buy into VRSS and other RTX features just to make their CV1 shine in a few supported games though ;) 
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
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