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YAY OR NAY FOR SOFTWARE ROLL BACK OPTION

timothyboss
Explorer
 
31 REPLIES 31

Zenbane
MVP
MVP

Umpa_PC said:

This would all be fixed by having a decent beta program ! - thats what the issue really is.  The arguments for allowing you to roll back or not upgrade would be moot if the software they forced upon us worked for them.  It's really simple - people by a device and they expect it to work. 



None of that is very realistic in the computing world. Every operating system has been riddled with bugs since the inception of the personal computers. When people buy a car they expect it to work too... but then reality sets in and cars break down, get flat tires, get cracked windshields, and need regular maintenance.

The problem is that people don't do enough research before buying a device. An even bigger problem is that people don't educate themselves enough to be able to troubleshoot their own devices. Much like someone who can't change a tire on their own vehicle.

The number of configurations available across every computer ever made is too vast for Oculus (or even Microsoft, IBM, etc) to thoroughly test. Beta program or not. In the end, the only thing that can be done is release to the public and work through the issues as they arise. That's the only real "beta program." Anything else is pie in the sky fiction.

Umpa_PC
Rising Star

Zenbane said:


Umpa_PC said:

This would all be fixed by having a decent beta program ! - thats what the issue really is.  The arguments for allowing you to roll back or not upgrade would be moot if the software they forced upon us worked for them.  It's really simple - people by a device and they expect it to work. 



None of that is very realistic in the computing world. Every operating system has been riddled with bugs since the inception of the personal computers. When people buy a car they expect it to work too... but then reality sets in and cars break down, get flat tires, get cracked windshields, and need regular maintenance.


Wow ....... Talk about missing the point........ by a HUGE AMOUNT.... What a stupid thing to say !!

You car analogy is totally irrelevant and non fitting,   The only comparison you can draw between a forced update and a car would be with a connected car like a Tesla, where it would work fine one day - takes an update (which you did not want or need) and fails to work correctly after.   The rest of what you said does not make much sense either

I mean really !   I am gob smacked by the IQ.


Zenbane said:

The problem is that people don't do enough research before buying a device. An even bigger problem is that people don't educate themselves enough to be able to troubleshoot their own devices. Much like someone who can't change a tire on their own vehicle.


People don't change tyres on vehicles it requires tools that are not supplied. People change wheels or inject foam.

How old are you ?


Zenbane said:
The number of configurations available across every computer ever made is too vast for Oculus (or even Microsoft, IBM, etc) to thoroughly test. Beta program or not. In the end, the only thing that can be done is release to the public and work through the issues as they arise. That's the only real "beta program." Anything else is pie in the sky fiction.


And yet Apple do not force OS upgrades on you, Neither do Linux, Android, only Microsoft does, and this only came about with windows 10, For decades they did not.  Xbox only did it to support a new game (on disc)  again its your decision to do it or not, or if you wanted to connect to XBlive (again you could refuse). You just don't get to play that game or connect.

Another argument from you that under scrutiny does not hold up.

I am saddened, I realise there are blind followers, but this is just too much.  
Oculus Rift S - Oculus Quest 128GB
MSI trident 3 7RB-200UK Intel Core i5-7400 3 Ghz x2
MSI GTX 1050 Ti (4GB) & MSI Aero GTX 1060 OC (6GB) & MSI Aero GTX 1070 OC 8GB
16 GB RAM x2, 1TB HDD x2, 1TB SSD x2
Windows 10 Home Edition Version 10.0.18363 Build 18363, Oculus version 17, Quest Version 17
Fan Cooling by Zotac FireStorm - AfterBurner cause me problems.

Zenbane
MVP
MVP

Umpa_PC said:
Wow ....... Talk about missing the point........ by a HUGE AMOUNT.... What a stupid thing to say !!


Not at all. You just seem to have run out of arguments so now you're resorting a bit of raging.

You car analogy is totally irrelevant and non fitting,   The only
comparison you can draw between a forced update and a car would be with a
connected car like a Tesla, where it would work fine one day - takes an
update (which you did not want or need) and fails to work correctly
after.   The rest of what you said does not make much sense either

Read your TOS that comes with your Oculus product. It is not a "forced update." You agreed to adhere to all updates upon purchase and installation. So I will put your own words right back at you, "Talk about missing the point........ by a HUGE AMOUNT.... What a stupid thing to say !!"

Until you understand the terms you have agreed to with VR hardware and Software installation, you are in no position to adequately ascertain good vs bad analogies.


 I am gob smacked by the IQ.

Tu quoque.

It's amazing that in the year 2020 there are people who agree to terms without any clue as to the terms they just agreed to.

People don't change tyres on vehicles it requires tools that are not supplied.
Ah, so you've never purchased a vehicle either? Because what you just said is a 100% fallacy. Vehicles have tire changing tools in the trunk (for cars) or in the back seat/compartment (for trucks). I've changed many a tires over the years. I've been driving since I was a young teenager, and all my vehicles came with the necessary tools. If you ever buy a real vehicle, you'll see!

How to change a tire on a car
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2JWkDyg26A

How to change a tire on a truck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99NEXd-6Pbg

I'm quite certain that it is either a State or Federal Law (in the U.S.) that requires a Car Dealership to provide a tire changing kit and spare tire on all new vehicles.

How old are you ?

Old enough to have owned several vehicles and learned how to change a tire with the supplied tools. I changed my first tire around age 16. How old are you?

And yet Apple do not force OS upgrades on you,

They most certainly do. I have owned several Macbooks and forced upgrades happen eventually. Apples does this by ending the life of the existing OS over time. And they spam the hell out of you for months until the force eventually happens. The same with Windows (e.g. Windows 7 to Windows 10).
Here's one article about Apples' forced upgrades:https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/apnhm7/apple_please_stop_forcing_updates_down_our_throats/


Neither do Linux, Android, only Microsoft does

The Oculus platform only runs on Microsoft. Both MS and Oculus follow the same model. Both of which state this in their TOS, which you agree to when you buy and use the product/service.


Another argument from you that under scrutiny does not hold up.

I'm stating facts; there's no real need to pose an "argument" since most of what you typed was pure fiction. Can't really argue with fantasy.

I am saddened, I realise there are blind followers, but this is just too much.  

I am more saddened as I realize how many blind followers of "uninformed online raging" occurs. It's quite the dedication some people have to tossing their opinion so strongly on the internet without really getting their facts straight first.

Zenbane
MVP
MVP
For those who haven't or don't wish to read through the official Oculus TOS, I took out the important parts, as related to this topic:

BY ACCEPTING THESE TERMS OF SERVICE OR USING OUR SERVICES, YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A LEGALLY BINDING INSTRUMENT AND AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS HEREIN.

THESE TERMS OF SERVICE CONTAIN IMPORTANT TERMS AND CONDITIONS THAT AFFECT YOU AND YOUR USE OF THE SERVICES

Oculus reserves the right to change or modify these Terms on a going-forward basis at any time and in our sole discretion.

Your continued use of the Services will confirm your acceptance of the revised Terms. If you do not agree to the revised Terms, you must stop using the Services and delete (https://secure.oculus.com/my/privacy) your account.

Certain equipment and software may be required to access and use the Services. In addition, we may need to automatically update some of the software you obtain through the Services or provide you with new software to keep the Services functioning properly, which could include bug fixes, patches, enhanced features, missing plug-ins and new versions. By using the Services, you agree to such automatic updating.


Notice the parts in Bold. You agree to automatic updates. Calling them "forced" doesn't change the agreement you agreed to.

https://www.oculus.com/legal/terms-of-service/

Umpa_PC
Rising Star
So your hiding behind TOS, Thats your only argument then.  A TOS they 99% of people don't read and YOU had to look up to prove a point.  An unfair contract can be nullified.  I can see your too far down the throat, it is still forced whether the hidden permission was agreed to or not.  This tyre you changed, what like a bicycle ?
Talk about me raging out - you still type bull. 
Oculus Rift S - Oculus Quest 128GB
MSI trident 3 7RB-200UK Intel Core i5-7400 3 Ghz x2
MSI GTX 1050 Ti (4GB) & MSI Aero GTX 1060 OC (6GB) & MSI Aero GTX 1070 OC 8GB
16 GB RAM x2, 1TB HDD x2, 1TB SSD x2
Windows 10 Home Edition Version 10.0.18363 Build 18363, Oculus version 17, Quest Version 17
Fan Cooling by Zotac FireStorm - AfterBurner cause me problems.

Zenbane
MVP
MVP

Umpa_PC said:

So your hiding behind TOS, Thats your only argument then. 


I didn't create the TOS, Oculus and Facebook did. And you agreed to it. It's a legally binding agreement. The entire legal system of the U.S. is "hiding behind it" too lol. You don't have an argument.

A TOS they 99% of people don't read and YOU had to look up to prove a point.

The TOS has been discussed and quoted on this forum quite a lot. Not just here either, on Reddit as well:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4d6fkg/oculus_rift_terms_of_service_states_you_surrend...


And on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni3Mx1v5m50


Just because you choose to be uniformed of the agreements you enter, doesn't mean everyone else makes that choice.


An unfair contract can be nullified. 

The Oculus TOS is fair. If you feel otherwise, try your luck in court.


I can see your too far down the throat

The "throat" of Intelligence and Common Sense, sure. You are far down an entirely different throat on the opposite end of the spectrum it seems.


it is still forced whether the hidden permission was agreed to or not.

It's not forced, it's an automatic update that you agreed to in a legally binding agreement that is available to the world freely on the internet; so no, it's not hidden either.


This tyre you changed, what like a bicycle ?

I showed you videos of a car and a truck that come with their own tire changing tools. While I have also changed the tire of a bicycle, you should know that, unlike cars and trucks, bicycles do not come with their own tire changing tools. You have everything backwards.


Talk about me raging out - you still type bull. 

I'm typing pure facts, and you have said pure fiction.

ezop73
Rising Star

Umpa_PC said:

 An unfair contract can be nullified.


Nope it can not, It is everyone's responsibility to read and fully understand the Terms & Conditions, by selecting continuenext or I agree you have entered into a digitally signed contract and are bound by the T&C herin.

 If you do not agree to or with the T&C then you simply select cancel and return the product for a full refund.

So in legal terms there's no such thing as an unfair contract, same goes for the excuse of 99% of people never read the T&C.

Anonymous
Not applicable
No one is going to force Oculus to do anything, through legal action or otherwise. If enough people oppose their forced updates then maybe it would eventually effect their bottom line, but I doubt it. They are going to continue to do whatever they want to do because they make more than enough money on people whose HMD aren't broken YET that they can afford to continue blowing off those of us who have a $400-$500 paperweight that may or may not ever work again.

Forced updates are nonsensical. No other hardware on the market does this. Pick any PC component or peripheral ever released and you can find legacy drivers and older firmware to flash down to easily. When something goes wrong you don't have to turn your computer off for 2 or 3 months or maybe forever until its fixed. Its reasonable to let people playtest software with known non fatal bugs. It is not reasonable to force your entire market to install software that is known to break a measurable amount of headsets. It is actually ridiculous that every day there is some portion of their market that is buying a brand new headset that immediately breaks the second they connect it to the internet, AND THEY KNOW THIS and yet still do nothing.

I have never seen a hardware manufacturer so consistently screw up updates with no plan for a fix much less even a temporary plan to address the problem. Oculus may be all the rage right now but the next Vive/Index customer is just one Oculus update away.

Zenbane
MVP
MVP


Forced updates are nonsensical.



Not true. Forced updates are a way to contain all configuration management in to a single version while trying to solve for the large variety of end-user system configurations. Allowing rollbacks, thus allowing multiple versions of a single platform to create a "mesh architecture," is nonsensical.

No other hardware on the market does this.

That's false. Examples have already been given.


Pick any PC component or peripheral ever released and you can find legacy drivers and older firmware to flash down to easily.

A VR HMD is not a mere component nor peripheral. And the forced updates entail an entire VR platform, not just firmware or drivers which are sub-components of a platform.


I have never seen a hardware manufacturer so consistently screw up
updates with no plan for a fix much less even a temporary plan to
address the problem.


It happens all the time. Even in other industries such as Food, Drug, and Vehicles. This is why "recalls" happen. The world aint perfect. People need to plan accordingly.

Anonymous
Not applicable

Zenbane said:
Not true....

That's false.

etc...

You know its possible to be an Oculus apologist without being a jerk.  You can call "false" all you want but this forum is filled with people whose experiences differ dramatically from yours and looking up at your posts, in my opinion, you are flat out wrong and apparently just enjoy arguing with people. No thanks. In fact the whole point of my post was that as asinine Oculus' practices are there isn't much point arguing over it because they aren't going to change.