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YAY OR NAY FOR SOFTWARE ROLL BACK OPTION

timothybosstimothyboss Posts: 4
NerveGear

YAY OR NAY FOR SOFTWARE ROLL BACK OPTION 50 votes

YES TO ROLL BACK OPTION
72%
MikeFLuluViBritanniaMaxxgoldandy32hbohgrantPhoenixSpyderBuetigameRuneSR2ElusiveMarlinNetherisford52adam.poole.313Moto13kRodney.YendorMountainDog12McScreamyStreamofConsciousmicachu86gregor616atevildead 36 votes
NEITHER
4%
Heaney-555TomCgcmfc 2 votes
NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
24%
JeffNikGanollumDaftnDirectvirtualHCGJD-UKZenbaneenigma01dburneOrodreth16Richooalezop73Ray_Sover 12 votes
«1

Comments

  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,304 Valuable Player
    YES TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    I want to be an astronaut too, lol ;)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • iTesla8iTesla8 Posts: 106
    Art3mis
    YES TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    I doubt they will let us rollback, it's like asking apple to rollback their throttling hardware iOS updates.
    My Own PC Build: NZXT Source S340 White > Corsair RM1000i > Asus ROG Strix Z270F Gaming > CPU Intel i7-7700K 4.5Ghz > Deepcool Captain120 EX > RAM KHX2400C15/16G | 4pcs = 64GB > Asus GTX1070 Dual O8G > Samsung U32J59xUQ 4K > Realtek High Definition Audio > Intel SSD 760p Series PCIE/NVMe M2.1 1TB > Intel SSD 600p Series PCIE/NVMe M2.2 1TB > AZIO Retro Classic Copper > Razer Mamba Hyperflux = Oculus Quest/Link
  • Umpa_PCUmpa_PC Posts: 744
    Trinity
    In addition I would like the option to NOT update at all.  Even if this means the inability to play online or take advantage of newer release games. 
    Oculus Rift S - Oculus Quest 128GB
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  • JD-UKJD-UK Posts: 2,367 Valuable Player
    NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    If they enable it, it could mean too many people not updating and them not getting enough info to be able to fix it.

    Imagine eveyone who has an issue goes back to the previous version and Oculus can't reproduce the issue themselves, where will they find out what did the damage?




  • grove21grove21 Posts: 30
    Brain Burst
    YES TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    JD-UK said:
    If they enable it, it could mean too many people not updating and them not getting enough info to be able to fix it.

    Imagine eveyone who has an issue goes back to the previous version and Oculus can't reproduce the issue themselves, where will they find out what did the damage?
    Then why not just have separate beta channel for coming updates so nobody gets huge problems afterall? So they fix everything before just rolling their bugs on us?
  • NetheriNetheri Posts: 390
    Trinity
    edited February 10
    YES TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    Yay and i would be all the way to to 1.38 where panel pullouts worked even from secondary monitor(s) and there wasn't an still image show on initial start in Home environment. 
    [email protected] 5/4.9GHz, ASUS Rog Strix 2080 Super OC , Corsair 32gb 3000MHz DDR4, ROG Strix Z370 H Gaming, 1 x Inateck 4 port USB 3.0 card, 2x3.1 USB, 6x3.0 USB on mobo, 1x USB-C on G-card.
    Natively Homeless (2.0) Dash, it's a working victory!
  • JD-UKJD-UK Posts: 2,367 Valuable Player
    edited February 16
    NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    grove21 said:
    JD-UK said:
    If they enable it, it could mean too many people not updating and them not getting enough info to be able to fix it.

    Imagine eveyone who has an issue goes back to the previous version and Oculus can't reproduce the issue themselves, where will they find out what did the damage?
    Then why not just have separate beta channel for coming updates so nobody gets huge problems afterall? So they fix everything before just rolling their bugs on us?
    Because they wouldn't fix everything. Here's an example - I have had zero problems with link since I first got it working last year, just after it was first released in beta. Many other people have been posting here that they have issues with Link after updates.
    Imagine all the people who try the beta get zero issues like me. Oculus release it as it seems to be fine, then gets 20 posts complaining it's bugged and why didn't they test it first?

    It's happened umpteen times on other games that have pre-beta and experimental releases (such as 7 Days To Die - notorious for this very thing, and DCS World).

    Edit: Also - you would end up with lots of people on different versions and having issues. What do you think they are going to do when something doesn't work right and they go to support or complain in the forum and Oculus - well within their rights - say "sorry, we only support the latest version"? Loadsa whining is what would happen. People are never satisfied. It's new tech, it's all "beta" in effect and we are the guinea pigs. Shit happens, just deal with it. People are just too impatient to wait for issues to be resolved and many just complain without even looking for ways to fix it themselves. Yes, it's frustrating, but they ain't gonna do it.

    How do I know? Because people have been complaining about it since CV1, 4 years ago, that's why. So threads like this are entertainment value only.




  • JD-UKJD-UK Posts: 2,367 Valuable Player
    NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    Just to add - I'm not taking their side - I'm not really bothered what they do as long as it's not completely unreasonable. I'm just trying to see it from their point of view ;)




  • Umpa_PCUmpa_PC Posts: 744
    Trinity
    JD-UK said:

    Edit: Also - you would end up with lots of people on different versions and having issues. What do you think they are going to do when something doesn't work right and they go to support or complain in the forum and Oculus - well within their rights - say "sorry, we only support the latest version"? Loadsa whining is what would happen. People are never satisfied. It's new tech, it's all "beta" in effect and we are the guinea pigs. Shit happens, just deal with it. People are just too impatient to wait for issues to be resolved and many just complain without even looking for ways to fix it themselves. Yes, it's frustrating, but they ain't gonna do it.
    1) It's common practice for support to only support the latest version saying to update and see if it fixes issues that is the very first thing they tell you to do.  So ???? I don't get the argument.

    2) The whole point of having lots of people on different versions is because if it works for them, then they would not be moaning If it does not then they would update.  So again ???? I don't get the argument.

    3) People are never satisfied,  Its always been that way even before Adam got it on with Eve, in fact Eve came about because Adam was not satisfied!

    4) When a product works as intended, and the developers screw it up by forcing you to update - they need to be accountable for it.

    Most of what you have said - holds true for the system of forced updates they have right now anyway. 
    Oculus Rift S - Oculus Quest 128GB
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  • gregor616gregor616 Posts: 81
    Hiro Protagonist
    YES TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    I would love to see Oculus expand the PTC channel to include a Quest PTC as well. I think having that option would eliminate many of the release issues they face now. I for one would opt in to something like that for Quest. 
    Oculus Quest 
    AMD Ryzen 7 2700, GeForce RTX 2060 Super, 32GB, Asus B450 Motherboard
  • StreamofConsciousStreamofConscious Posts: 30
    Brain Burst
    YES TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    JD-UK said:
    grove21 said:
    JD-UK said:
    If they enable it, it could mean too many people not updating and them not getting enough info to be able to fix it.

    Imagine eveyone who has an issue goes back to the previous version and Oculus can't reproduce the issue themselves, where will they find out what did the damage?
    Then why not just have separate beta channel for coming updates so nobody gets huge problems afterall? So they fix everything before just rolling their bugs on us?
    Because they wouldn't fix everything. Here's an example - I have had zero problems with link since I first got it working last year, just after it was first released in beta. Many other people have been posting here that they have issues with Link after updates.
    Imagine all the people who try the beta get zero issues like me. Oculus release it as it seems to be fine, then gets 20 posts complaining it's bugged and why didn't they test it first?

    It's happened umpteen times on other games that have pre-beta and experimental releases (such as 7 Days To Die - notorious for this very thing, and DCS World).

    Edit: Also - you would end up with lots of people on different versions and having issues. What do you think they are going to do when something doesn't work right and they go to support or complain in the forum and Oculus - well within their rights - say "sorry, we only support the latest version"? Loadsa whining is what would happen. People are never satisfied. It's new tech, it's all "beta" in effect and we are the guinea pigs. Shit happens, just deal with it. People are just too impatient to wait for issues to be resolved and many just complain without even looking for ways to fix it themselves. Yes, it's frustrating, but they ain't gonna do it.

    How do I know? Because people have been complaining about it since CV1, 4 years ago, that's why. So threads like this are entertainment value only.
    You do realize that the exact scenario you suggest is the actual scenario, right? Most of the people who were working just fine prior to the Mid December update are now having the display port and black screen issues.....as well as the jitter stuff. My guess is that they were not allowed to use the PTZ efficiently and were forced to bring out the facebook stuff upgrade and along with it came chaos. Now, the issue is how they are dealing with the chaos they created; very bad in my opinion.
  • ohgrantohgrant Posts: 323
    Trinity
    YES TO ROLL BACK OPTION
     Yes more options are always good. I would prefer to at least get a choice when things update. A major update that has potential to cause any sort of issues is something that I should get a pop up message to install, or install later. Maybe even the option to defer for a week or so. Would be nice if the update process could get a bit more interactive  
    Gigabyte  AB350 Ryzen 2700x, 16gb ddr 4 3200, 1080ti. Z800 HMD, DK1, DK2, CV1, Vive wireless, Quest, HP Reverb. Viewsonic 1080p 3D projector ASUS 3D vision monitor.  UAD Apollo interface, Yamaha studio monitors.  
  • RichooalRichooal Posts: 1,607 Valuable Player
    NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    I think that the real issue is not addressing the problems uncovered in the PTC before general release.
    Also I believe that it needs to be treated as a "Test" channel not a "guinea pig" channel. Currently there is no communication about what is being worked on, fixed, tweaked, etc.

    I've said it before...... If Oculus clearly indicate what changes are made in the test channel, then we can target those changes and report back. Instead we're only guinea pigs. If enough of us get sick or die, then they might look to see what needs to change.

    i5 6600k - GTX1060 - 8GB RAM - Rift CV1 + 3 Senors - 0 PROBLEMS 1 minor problem
    Dear Oculus, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", please.

  • LuluViBritanniaLuluViBritannia Posts: 523
    Neo
    YES TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    Forcing users is never a good choice. We should have the option to get back to previous versions if these worked better for our system. At the very least, we should have the option not to update.
    I don't really blame Oculus for that, though. I blame the entire industry for pushing updates instead of using them as a fixing tool (which is what it is supposed to be in the first place).

    Anyway, we definitely should be able to choose the version we use.
    Current VR results imo:
    - Great small apps. Great ports of bigger games.
    - Great VR-specific features. Not enough showcased!!!
    - Too many actors in the industry, the market is totally broken.


    My hopes for VR next gen:

    - Better ratio between visual quality and power needs. No more godrays and less SDE.
    - Full Body Tracking.


    "If you don't mind, do you want me to take you there? Where dreams come true."
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,143 Valuable Player
    NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    JD-UK said:
    you would end up with lots of people on different versions and having issues. What do you think they are going to do when something doesn't work right and they go to support or complain in the forum and Oculus - well within their rights - say "sorry, we only support the latest version"? Loadsa whining is what would happen. People are never satisfied. It's new tech, it's all "beta" in effect and we are the guinea pigs. Shit happens, just deal with it. People are just too impatient to wait for issues to be resolved and many just complain without even looking for ways to fix it themselves. Yes, it's frustrating, but they ain't gonna do it.


    Completely agree. I've worked in the software field for 20 years now, and allowing people who have no patience to "roll back" is a terrible choice in situations like this. If everyone rolled back the moment they were inconvenienced, then it would take much, much longer for these problems to get resolved.

    All of these issues are temporary. The Rift platform has been out since 2016 and each rollout has its problems but eventually gets resolved within a reasonable time-frame.

    Perhaps if it were taking 3-6 months to resolve issues with a platform update, then sure, a rollback option would be nice. But these problems typically last either days or weeks, and only impact some - not all - people. Instead of complaining, consumers should focus on working together to troubleshoot and identify the root cause for these issues.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,708 Volunteer Moderator
    NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    I see the advantages to individuals in the short term to choose which version to use but yeah, I think on balance, the quickest route to resolving bugs and improving the software is streamlining the process as much as possible with users submitting logs that relate to a common build, it's then easier to pin down what's common between users with the same issue and replicate it.

    Logs submitted from users with different software builds moves the goalposts for anyone tracking things down. There's a PTC and a 'stable' release, I think more than that would be helping the individual in the short-term but not in the long-term.
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18363.720)
  • iTesla8iTesla8 Posts: 106
    Art3mis
    YES TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    I have try today to roll on my back but it did not work, i got a pain, similarly i doubt it will work for Quest. :D
    My Own PC Build: NZXT Source S340 White > Corsair RM1000i > Asus ROG Strix Z270F Gaming > CPU Intel i7-7700K 4.5Ghz > Deepcool Captain120 EX > RAM KHX2400C15/16G | 4pcs = 64GB > Asus GTX1070 Dual O8G > Samsung U32J59xUQ 4K > Realtek High Definition Audio > Intel SSD 760p Series PCIE/NVMe M2.1 1TB > Intel SSD 600p Series PCIE/NVMe M2.2 1TB > AZIO Retro Classic Copper > Razer Mamba Hyperflux = Oculus Quest/Link
  • Umpa_PCUmpa_PC Posts: 744
    Trinity
    edited February 19
    I see the advantages to individuals in the short term to choose which version to use but yeah, I think on balance, the quickest route to resolving bugs and improving the software is streamlining the process as much as possible with users submitting logs that relate to a common build, it's then easier to pin down what's common between users with the same issue and replicate it.

    Logs submitted from users with different software builds moves the goalposts for anyone tracking things down. There's a PTC and a 'stable' release, I think more than that would be helping the individual in the short-term but not in the long-term.
    This would all be fixed by having a decent beta program ! - thats what the issue really is.  The arguments for allowing you to roll back or not upgrade would be moot if the software they forced upon us worked for them.  It's really simple - people by a device and they expect it to work.  People who want more, the latest and greatest, be state of the art can have the experimental software and report back bugs.  This is a freaking TOY, a pass time. nothing more.  Xbox did this for the security of the network and to prevent piracy You were only forced to update IF you wanted to connect to their online service - whats Oculus' reason ?

    I don't have any problems, but can see it from affected users points of view, From what I have seen, much of the problems are caused by incorrect hardware setups, not recommend hardware, over clocking, and user error - poor drivers, or  cheap unknown branded hardware..  That said if it works on one version they should NOT be forced to update.  A lack of compatible games would eventually make them anyway all it would take is a message like, to install this software you need to upgrade to xxxxx version  - just like almost ANY OTHER computer system does - this goes for Rift(s) and quest.
    Oculus Rift S - Oculus Quest 128GB
    MSI trident 3 7RB-200UK Intel Core i5-7400 3 Ghz x2
    MSI GTX 1050 Ti (4GB) & MSI Aero GTX 1060 OC (6GB) & MSI Aero GTX 1070 OC 8GB
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    Windows 10 Home Edition Version 10.0.18363 Build 18363, Oculus version 17, Quest Version 17
    Fan Cooling by Zotac FireStorm - AfterBurner cause me problems.
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 5,708 Volunteer Moderator
    edited February 19
    NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    It depends on whether we want to include more varied hardware and varied setups into the 'working without a problem' bracket. I've had no problem either but I'd like our choices of setups to be less strict. I'm not totally convinced either that user error or 'incorrect hardware' is a cause we should be hanging too much weight on... it's just that PCs are so varied, both in hardware and software installed, there's no changing that, having a minimum spec for VR is one thing but anything else is down to recommendations, testing, bug reporting and helpful advice from the good people on this forum.

    The PTC program is the beta test program but I'm probably not fully qualified to judge on how decent it is... as like I say, I've had no issues for either the PTC or the non-PTC.

    There's also a difference between something like Microsoft's PC software and Oculus' VR software in the size of the userbase and I suspect, the size of the development teams.... by an order of magnitude.

    A relatively small dev team getting user logs from a relatively small userbase is helped from having that consistent foundation of the same version of the software. Microsoft will get huge amounts of data even if just a small percentage of people have problems and just a small percentage of the people with problems bother to report them.

    And that's another thing, how many people with problems send logs to Oculus, 50%? I suspect less than 5%. Again, I see the problem from the point of view of the user with a problem with a particular build but I see bugs being addressed quicker with the consistency of a common software version.
    Intel 5820K [email protected], Titan X (Maxwell), 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4, ASRock X99 Taichi, Samsung 500Gb 960 Evo M.2, Corsair H100i v2 Cooler, Inateck KTU3FR-4P USB 3 card, Windows 10 Pro v1903 (18363.720)
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,143 Valuable Player
    edited February 19
    NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    Umpa_PC said:
    This would all be fixed by having a decent beta program ! - thats what the issue really is.  The arguments for allowing you to roll back or not upgrade would be moot if the software they forced upon us worked for them.  It's really simple - people by a device and they expect it to work. 

    None of that is very realistic in the computing world. Every operating system has been riddled with bugs since the inception of the personal computers. When people buy a car they expect it to work too... but then reality sets in and cars break down, get flat tires, get cracked windshields, and need regular maintenance.

    The problem is that people don't do enough research before buying a device. An even bigger problem is that people don't educate themselves enough to be able to troubleshoot their own devices. Much like someone who can't change a tire on their own vehicle.

    The number of configurations available across every computer ever made is too vast for Oculus (or even Microsoft, IBM, etc) to thoroughly test. Beta program or not. In the end, the only thing that can be done is release to the public and work through the issues as they arise. That's the only real "beta program." Anything else is pie in the sky fiction.
    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
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  • Umpa_PCUmpa_PC Posts: 744
    Trinity
    Zenbane said:
    Umpa_PC said:
    This would all be fixed by having a decent beta program ! - thats what the issue really is.  The arguments for allowing you to roll back or not upgrade would be moot if the software they forced upon us worked for them.  It's really simple - people by a device and they expect it to work. 

    None of that is very realistic in the computing world. Every operating system has been riddled with bugs since the inception of the personal computers. When people buy a car they expect it to work too... but then reality sets in and cars break down, get flat tires, get cracked windshields, and need regular maintenance.
    Wow ....... Talk about missing the point........ by a HUGE AMOUNT.... What a stupid thing to say !!

    You car analogy is totally irrelevant and non fitting,   The only comparison you can draw between a forced update and a car would be with a connected car like a Tesla, where it would work fine one day - takes an update (which you did not want or need) and fails to work correctly after.   The rest of what you said does not make much sense either

    I mean really !   I am gob smacked by the IQ.

    Zenbane said:

    The problem is that people don't do enough research before buying a device. An even bigger problem is that people don't educate themselves enough to be able to troubleshoot their own devices. Much like someone who can't change a tire on their own vehicle.
    People don't change tyres on vehicles it requires tools that are not supplied. People change wheels or inject foam.

    How old are you ?

    Zenbane said:
    The number of configurations available across every computer ever made is too vast for Oculus (or even Microsoft, IBM, etc) to thoroughly test. Beta program or not. In the end, the only thing that can be done is release to the public and work through the issues as they arise. That's the only real "beta program." Anything else is pie in the sky fiction.
    And yet Apple do not force OS upgrades on you, Neither do Linux, Android, only Microsoft does, and this only came about with windows 10, For decades they did not.  Xbox only did it to support a new game (on disc)  again its your decision to do it or not, or if you wanted to connect to XBlive (again you could refuse). You just don't get to play that game or connect.

    Another argument from you that under scrutiny does not hold up.

    I am saddened, I realise there are blind followers, but this is just too much.  
    Oculus Rift S - Oculus Quest 128GB
    MSI trident 3 7RB-200UK Intel Core i5-7400 3 Ghz x2
    MSI GTX 1050 Ti (4GB) & MSI Aero GTX 1060 OC (6GB) & MSI Aero GTX 1070 OC 8GB
    16 GB RAM x2, 1TB HDD x2, 1TB SSD x2
    Windows 10 Home Edition Version 10.0.18363 Build 18363, Oculus version 17, Quest Version 17
    Fan Cooling by Zotac FireStorm - AfterBurner cause me problems.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,143 Valuable Player
    edited February 21
    NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    Umpa_PC said:
    Wow ....... Talk about missing the point........ by a HUGE AMOUNT.... What a stupid thing to say !!
    Not at all. You just seem to have run out of arguments so now you're resorting a bit of raging.

    You car analogy is totally irrelevant and non fitting,   The only comparison you can draw between a forced update and a car would be with a connected car like a Tesla, where it would work fine one day - takes an update (which you did not want or need) and fails to work correctly after.   The rest of what you said does not make much sense either

    Read your TOS that comes with your Oculus product. It is not a "forced update." You agreed to adhere to all updates upon purchase and installation. So I will put your own words right back at you, "Talk about missing the point........ by a HUGE AMOUNT.... What a stupid thing to say !!"

    Until you understand the terms you have agreed to with VR hardware and Software installation, you are in no position to adequately ascertain good vs bad analogies.


     I am gob smacked by the IQ.

    Tu quoque.

    It's amazing that in the year 2020 there are people who agree to terms without any clue as to the terms they just agreed to.

    People don't change tyres on vehicles it requires tools that are not supplied.
    Ah, so you've never purchased a vehicle either? Because what you just said is a 100% fallacy. Vehicles have tire changing tools in the trunk (for cars) or in the back seat/compartment (for trucks). I've changed many a tires over the years. I've been driving since I was a young teenager, and all my vehicles came with the necessary tools. If you ever buy a real vehicle, you'll see!

    How to change a tire on a car


    How to change a tire on a truck


    I'm quite certain that it is either a State or Federal Law (in the U.S.) that requires a Car Dealership to provide a tire changing kit and spare tire on all new vehicles.

    How old are you ?

    Old enough to have owned several vehicles and learned how to change a tire with the supplied tools. I changed my first tire around age 16. How old are you?

    And yet Apple do not force OS upgrades on you,

    They most certainly do. I have owned several Macbooks and forced upgrades happen eventually. Apples does this by ending the life of the existing OS over time. And they spam the hell out of you for months until the force eventually happens. The same with Windows (e.g. Windows 7 to Windows 10).
    Here's one article about Apples' forced upgrades:https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/apnhm7/apple_please_stop_forcing_updates_down_our_throats/


    Neither do Linux, Android, only Microsoft does

    The Oculus platform only runs on Microsoft. Both MS and Oculus follow the same model. Both of which state this in their TOS, which you agree to when you buy and use the product/service.


    Another argument from you that under scrutiny does not hold up.

    I'm stating facts; there's no real need to pose an "argument" since most of what you typed was pure fiction. Can't really argue with fantasy.

    I am saddened, I realise there are blind followers, but this is just too much.  

    I am more saddened as I realize how many blind followers of "uninformed online raging" occurs. It's quite the dedication some people have to tossing their opinion so strongly on the internet without really getting their facts straight first.

    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,143 Valuable Player
    edited February 21
    NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    For those who haven't or don't wish to read through the official Oculus TOS, I took out the important parts, as related to this topic:

    BY ACCEPTING THESE TERMS OF SERVICE OR USING OUR SERVICES, YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A LEGALLY BINDING INSTRUMENT AND AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS HEREIN.

    THESE TERMS OF SERVICE CONTAIN IMPORTANT TERMS AND CONDITIONS THAT AFFECT YOU AND YOUR USE OF THE SERVICES

    Oculus reserves the right to change or modify these Terms on a going-forward basis at any time and in our sole discretion.

    Your continued use of the Services will confirm your acceptance of the revised Terms. If you do not agree to the revised Terms, you must stop using the Services and delete (https://secure.oculus.com/my/privacy) your account.

    Certain equipment and software may be required to access and use the Services. In addition, we may need to automatically update some of the software you obtain through the Services or provide you with new software to keep the Services functioning properly, which could include bug fixes, patches, enhanced features, missing plug-ins and new versions. By using the Services, you agree to such automatic updating.


    Notice the parts in Bold. You agree to automatic updates. Calling them "forced" doesn't change the agreement you agreed to.

    https://www.oculus.com/legal/terms-of-service/

    Are you a fan of the Myst games? Check out my Mod at http://www.mystrock.com/
    Catch me on Twitter: twitter.com/zenbane
  • Umpa_PCUmpa_PC Posts: 744
    Trinity
    edited February 22
    So your hiding behind TOS, Thats your only argument then.  A TOS they 99% of people don't read and YOU had to look up to prove a point.  An unfair contract can be nullified.  I can see your too far down the throat, it is still forced whether the hidden permission was agreed to or not.  This tyre you changed, what like a bicycle ?
    Talk about me raging out - you still type bull. 
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,143 Valuable Player
    edited February 22
    NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    Umpa_PC said:
    So your hiding behind TOS, Thats your only argument then. 
    I didn't create the TOS, Oculus and Facebook did. And you agreed to it. It's a legally binding agreement. The entire legal system of the U.S. is "hiding behind it" too lol. You don't have an argument.

    A TOS they 99% of people don't read and YOU had to look up to prove a point.

    The TOS has been discussed and quoted on this forum quite a lot. Not just here either, on Reddit as well:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4d6fkg/oculus_rift_terms_of_service_states_you_surrender/


    And on YouTube:



    Just because you choose to be uniformed of the agreements you enter, doesn't mean everyone else makes that choice.


    An unfair contract can be nullified. 

    The Oculus TOS is fair. If you feel otherwise, try your luck in court.


    I can see your too far down the throat

    The "throat" of Intelligence and Common Sense, sure. You are far down an entirely different throat on the opposite end of the spectrum it seems.


    it is still forced whether the hidden permission was agreed to or not.

    It's not forced, it's an automatic update that you agreed to in a legally binding agreement that is available to the world freely on the internet; so no, it's not hidden either.


    This tyre you changed, what like a bicycle ?

    I showed you videos of a car and a truck that come with their own tire changing tools. While I have also changed the tire of a bicycle, you should know that, unlike cars and trucks, bicycles do not come with their own tire changing tools. You have everything backwards.


    Talk about me raging out - you still type bull. 

    I'm typing pure facts, and you have said pure fiction.

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  • ezop73ezop73 Posts: 289
    Nexus 6
    NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    Umpa_PC said:
     An unfair contract can be nullified.
    Nope it can not, It is everyone's responsibility to read and fully understand the Terms & Conditions, by selecting continuenext or I agree you have entered into a digitally signed contract and are bound by the T&C herin.

     If you do not agree to or with the T&C then you simply select cancel and return the product for a full refund.

    So in legal terms there's no such thing as an unfair contract, same goes for the excuse of 99% of people never read the T&C.
  • adam.poole.313adam.poole.313 Posts: 154
    Art3mis
    edited February 24
    YES TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    No one is going to force Oculus to do anything, through legal action or otherwise. If enough people oppose their forced updates then maybe it would eventually effect their bottom line, but I doubt it. They are going to continue to do whatever they want to do because they make more than enough money on people whose HMD aren't broken YET that they can afford to continue blowing off those of us who have a $400-$500 paperweight that may or may not ever work again.

    Forced updates are nonsensical. No other hardware on the market does this. Pick any PC component or peripheral ever released and you can find legacy drivers and older firmware to flash down to easily. When something goes wrong you don't have to turn your computer off for 2 or 3 months or maybe forever until its fixed. Its reasonable to let people playtest software with known non fatal bugs. It is not reasonable to force your entire market to install software that is known to break a measurable amount of headsets. It is actually ridiculous that every day there is some portion of their market that is buying a brand new headset that immediately breaks the second they connect it to the internet, AND THEY KNOW THIS and yet still do nothing.

    I have never seen a hardware manufacturer so consistently screw up updates with no plan for a fix much less even a temporary plan to address the problem. Oculus may be all the rage right now but the next Vive/Index customer is just one Oculus update away.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,143 Valuable Player
    edited February 24
    NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    Forced updates are nonsensical.

    Not true. Forced updates are a way to contain all configuration management in to a single version while trying to solve for the large variety of end-user system configurations. Allowing rollbacks, thus allowing multiple versions of a single platform to create a "mesh architecture," is nonsensical.

    No other hardware on the market does this.

    That's false. Examples have already been given.


    Pick any PC component or peripheral ever released and you can find legacy drivers and older firmware to flash down to easily.

    A VR HMD is not a mere component nor peripheral. And the forced updates entail an entire VR platform, not just firmware or drivers which are sub-components of a platform.


    I have never seen a hardware manufacturer so consistently screw up updates with no plan for a fix much less even a temporary plan to address the problem.


    It happens all the time. Even in other industries such as Food, Drug, and Vehicles. This is why "recalls" happen. The world aint perfect. People need to plan accordingly.

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  • adam.poole.313adam.poole.313 Posts: 154
    Art3mis
    YES TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    Zenbane said:
    Not true....

    That's false.

    etc...
    You know its possible to be an Oculus apologist without being a jerk.  You can call "false" all you want but this forum is filled with people whose experiences differ dramatically from yours and looking up at your posts, in my opinion, you are flat out wrong and apparently just enjoy arguing with people. No thanks. In fact the whole point of my post was that as asinine Oculus' practices are there isn't much point arguing over it because they aren't going to change.

    Oculus Rift S, CV1
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 15,143 Valuable Player
    edited February 24
    NAY TO ROLL BACK OPTION
    adam.poole.313 said:
    You know its possible to be an Oculus apologist without being a jerk.

    There's no apology going on here. The issues/bugs with the hardware and software should be dealt with very strictly, and consumers have a right to complain. Nothing to apologize about on Oculus' behalf. It's their burden to create and maintain a stable platform.

    However, this thread is about software rollbacks of a platform. And in that sense, I stand by my arguments from a technical perspective. I would apply them to any organization creating a platform. Microsoft, Amazon, IBM, etc.


    You can call "false" all you want but this forum is filled with people whose experiences differ dramatically from yours

    What I referred to as "false" has nothing to do with peoples experiences. What I called "false" is your statement that no other hardware performs force updates. That is most literally 100% false.


    and looking up at your posts, in my opinion, you are flat out wrong and apparently just enjoy arguing with people
    You will need to prove me wrong with some facts. Saying it doesn't make it so. As for arguing... I do enjoy a good debate, especially when it is constructive. If you look up the history of the Internet, people in general seem to love to argue!


    In fact the whole point of my post was that as asinine Oculus' practices are there isn't much point arguing over it because they aren't going to change.

    The whole point of my response is that it is asinine to say that what is happening here is uncommon. It is quite common and it is much better to set ones expectations accordingly, and work towards gaining a better understanding, knowledge, and experience. The end-result will be much stronger than merely complaining on the Internet.

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