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HP Reverb G2 - collaboration between HP, Valve and Microsoft

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  • MegalithikMegalithik Posts: 49
    Brain Burst
    If this thing can track as well as a Rift S, i'll be making the switch.  Been looking for a viable alternative to Oculus that doesn't cost a grand.  I liked the original Reverb but its tracking sucked so i never bought it, also it was tied to the WMR which also sucked.  This new one is lookign really good though on paper, it just needs to track properly in the blind spots.
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,584 Valuable Player
    If this thing can track as well as a Rift S, i'll be making the switch.  Been looking for a viable alternative to Oculus that doesn't cost a grand.  I liked the original Reverb but its tracking sucked so i never bought it, also it was tied to the WMR which also sucked.  This new one is lookign really good though on paper, it just needs to track properly in the blind spots.
    I totally agree. I don't think valve would want their name on something bad so I'm hopeful.
     After the reviews and after allowing a few months to go buy if it's still good it's a buy for me too. 
  • dburnedburne Posts: 3,754 Valuable Player
    If this thing can track as well as a Rift S, i'll be making the switch.  Been looking for a viable alternative to Oculus that doesn't cost a grand.  I liked the original Reverb but its tracking sucked so i never bought it, also it was tied to the WMR which also sucked.  This new one is lookign really good though on paper, it just needs to track properly in the blind spots.
    Yeah well it is still tied to WMR. Hopefully will be better though. I will wait for user feedback.
    Don

    EVGA Z390 Dark MB | I9 9900k| EVGA 2080Ti FTW3 Ultra |32 GB G Skill 3200 cl14 ram | Warthog Throttle | VKB Gunfighter Pro/MCG Pro grip | Crosswind Pedals | EVGA DG 87 Case| Rift S | Quest |
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,987 Valuable Player
    edited June 2
    WMR really isn't bad. My typical session... I grab my headset, I go to my computer and launch Windows Mixed Reality for SteamVR. I put my headset on and I'm in the SteamVR home like every other Steam headset. It's really not a big deal. You do have the cliff house if you prefer but I personally don't use it except to adjust my floor height if it needs adjusting. I just use my SteamVR home for everything. Supersampling and all that is just done like your normally would in SteamVR.

    On a related note they updated WMR for SteamVR today. Still updates rolling out.


  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 2,435 Valuable Player
    Glad to hear that WMR is improving but I don't understand why it still needs the extra layer of SteamVR to operate.  That is, SteamVR, WMR for SteamVR, and WMR unlike Oculus that only need the base SteamVR and it's base Oculus app.  Not a separate SteamVR for Oculus app.

    Custom built gaming desktop; i9 9900k (water cooled) oc to 5ghz, gtx 1080 ti, 32 gb 3000hz ram, 1 tb ssd, 4 tb hdd.  Asus  ROG Maximus xi hero wifi mb, StarTech 4 port/4 controller sata powered usb3.0 pcie card, PCI-E PCI Express to USB 3.1 Gen 2 card, Asus VG248QE 1080p 144hz gaming monitor, Oculus Rift cv1 w/2x sensors, Vive Pro w/2.0 base stations/controllers, Quest w/Link and VD wireless (good/close 5Ghz wifi and PC with Ethernet cable to my Router).

  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,987 Valuable Player
    edited June 2
    TomCgcmfc said:
    Glad to hear that WMR is improving but I don't understand why it still needs the extra layer of SteamVR to operate.  That is, SteamVR, WMR for SteamVR, and WMR unlike Oculus that only need the base SteamVR and it's base Oculus app.  Not a separate SteamVR for Oculus app.
    Shrug, I'd guess it's because WMR has different re-projection and tech than SteamVR and has its own settings. Also WMR was able to run at 60 FPS before SteamVR added the ability to change frame rates so that's probably a factor as well. Those settings are contained in the WMR for SteamVR folder within steam. Perhaps that's the plan with them putting their settings into SteamVR and Microsoft becoming a lot more friendly with Valve.

    Either way it's a mouse click and you're in SteamVR.  Also, for a lot of people, once they install it and have steam up, just slipping the headset on launches them in SteamVR. For whatever reason, sometimes mine will go to the cliffhouse so I just launch WMR for Steam when i'm ready to play and it always goes into steam. (WMR For SteamVR opens SteamVR as well)
  • WildtWildt Posts: 2,289 Valuable Player
    The WMR software has been a bit of a pain for me. It constantly crashes my nvidia drivers if my monitor isn't set to something standard like 1080p/60, which I tend to forget.
    PCVR: CV1 || 4 sensors || TPcast wireless adapter || MamutVR Gun stock V3
    PSVR: PS4 Pro || Move Controllers || Aim controller
    WMR: HP Reverb
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,409 Valuable Player
    edited June 3
    @pyroth309 - I think some people's idea of WMR tracking been bad is because it doesn't use 4 camera's like the Rift S and losses tracking where the Rift S doesn't. That's the only reason I can think these people are saying that WMR tracking sucks. That's a bit like saying the Rift S tracking sucks though because it can't track your controllers behind your back without a camera there.
    I would have sent my HP Reverb back if it had really bad tracking and I'm sure you would have done the same with the Samsung VR headset. I do have to laugh when people say it's bad when it's not. Like I've already said in a previous post when the camera's can see your controllers the tracking is fine in WMR.
    I've not had chance to use my HP Reverb for a while now and just wondered about the ASW you are talking about in Steam. Does WMR now have a setting in steam to switch on ASW for WMR? I usually have to go into the WMR for Steam folder and mess about changing some text to get ASW for WMR to work with Steam. Where is this setting if Steam include this now, please?
    @Wildt - That's either a corrupt driver or something on your Computer causing that. I've never had this happen. I know the latest Nvidia driver is crap though and I had to revert back to the previous one. Here's the problem I had with the latest Nvidia driver in this link below. I couldn't even go into the Nvida Control Panel.

  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,987 Valuable Player
    Wildt said:
    The WMR software has been a bit of a pain for me. It constantly crashes my nvidia drivers if my monitor isn't set to something standard like 1080p/60, which I tend to forget.
    Ouch that blows, glad I haven't hit that.

    RedRizla said:
    @pyroth309 - I think some people's idea of WMR tracking been bad is because it doesn't use 4 camera's like the Rift S and losses some tracking where the Rift S doesn't. That's the only reason I can think these people are saying that WMR tracking sucks. That's a bit like saying the Rift S tracking sucks though, just because it can't track your controllers behind your back, knowing it doesn't have a camera on the back of the headset.
    I would have sent my HP Reverb back if it had really bad tracking and I'm sure you would have done the same with the Samsung VR headset. I do have to laugh when people say it's bad when it's not at all. Like I've already said in a previous post when the camera's can see your controllers the tracking is fine.
    Not had chance to use my HP Reverb for a bit now and was just wonder about the ASW you are talking about in Steam. Does WMR now have a setting in steam to switch on ASW and where is the setting if it does please? I usually have to go into the WMR for Steam and mess about changing some text to get ASW for WMR to work with Steam.

    Yea exactly. Look, I'm not trying to say someone should buy a current gen WMR at this point. That ship has sailed. I was just commenting that with only two cameras, it gives close to a quest like experience. The biggest noticeable difference is up above. Quest tracks the hands above your head much better because the WMR cameras aren't able to see up there. But like you said, where it can see it's great.

    Yea it's in beta atm instructions are here - https://steamcommunity.com/app/719950/allnews
    From what it sounds like, they're actually using the Steam Motion Smoothing on top of the WMR head reprojection. At least with Steam Motion Smoothing you can set it on a per application basis.

    In other news, the config file editing stuff is going away very soon. Found this snippet from TymAtMSFT.
    We know modifying that file is awful. We're working on an actual settings UI for changing those, but it's not quite ready yet. However, the next beta release will include support for using the SteamVR motion reprojection setting in addition to our own so that you won't have to modify a file to enable it. Hopefully that'll help resolve these issues.







  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,584 Valuable Player
     There is no way 2 cameras will give a quest like experience as mentioned previously. I have the rift s and  the quest which are very comparable to having great tracking. And I agree with the comment above that the reverb with 2 cameras doesn't suck for what it is. It does a good job with the 2 cameras it has. But physically 2 cameras can't  work well for certain games. That is why the reverb is so popular amongst sim users where 2 cameras work great. 4 cameras on the reverb 2 if done right could work great with everything. 
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,972 Valuable Player
    Coverage of your tracking still is a big part of the over all tracing though. This was discuss to death in other threads with the Rift S vs Quest threads. More coverage for an already working tracking method means less "issues" with in games. While I like the Quest - I can still tell the differences between CV1 or Rift S to that of Quest because of coverage. There is ways to improve this of coarse as we saw in the leaks on the new controllers from Oculus with better IMUs and other tracking point data. 
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,987 Valuable Player
    edited June 3
    inovator said:
     There is no way 2 cameras will give a quest like experience as mentioned previously. I have the rift s and  the quest which are very comparable to having great tracking. And I agree with the comment above that the reverb with 2 cameras doesn't suck for what it is. It does a good job with the 2 cameras it has. But physically 2 cameras can't  work well for certain games. That is why the reverb is so popular amongst sim users where 2 cameras work great. 4 cameras on the reverb 2 if done right could work great with everything. 

    I said the Quest is better but it's not a huge difference was my point. I've compared O+ and Quest side by side many times. WMR does some things better like I can smash the controller into the center of the headset and the tracking is still strong which is great for FPS. I'm assuming this is because the controllers are so much larger. The most significant difference is reaching high above, like windlands or reaching down low and still looking straight. WMR comes up short here. To be blunt, it sucks. But all of the most common VR motion areas the cameras pick up on. I've used both in beat saber several times on expert and expert + and they both come up short to me with losing tracking but Quest has the advantage on maps with a lot of high blocks unless I make myself a giant in the game. To me, both are playable up to expert and beyond that it's time to get a better tracking system. Now, I don't know if it's jsut my arms occluding or what but I will lose tracking and even one hiccup is enough to tank my score.

    Anyway, it's irrelevant at this point, I'm not trying to sell anyone on WMR 1.0 lol. I was just trying to convey that considering what they did with just two cameras, I'm excited to see what happens with 4. I'm thinking with the alignment on them though, down by the hip may be able to be caught but up above is probably still going to be crappy without looking up.
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,584 Valuable Player
    pyroth309 said:
    inovator said:
     There is no way 2 cameras will give a quest like experience as mentioned previously. I have the rift s and  the quest which are very comparable to having great tracking. And I agree with the comment above that the reverb with 2 cameras doesn't suck for what it is. It does a good job with the 2 cameras it has. But physically 2 cameras can't  work well for certain games. That is why the reverb is so popular amongst sim users where 2 cameras work great. 4 cameras on the reverb 2 if done right could work great with everything. 

    I said the Quest is better but it's not a huge difference was my point. I've compared O+ and Quest side by side many times. WMR does some things better like I can smash the controller into the center of the headset and the tracking is still strong which is great for FPS. I'm assuming this is because the controllers are so much larger. The most significant difference is reaching high above, like windlands or reaching down low and still looking straight. WMR comes up short here. To be blunt, it sucks. But all of the most common VR motion areas the cameras pick up on. I've used both in beat saber several times on expert and expert + and they both come up short to me with losing tracking but Quest has the advantage on maps with a lot of high blocks unless I make myself a giant in the game. To me, both are playable up to expert and beyond that it's time to get a better tracking system. Now, I don't know if it's jsut my arms occluding or what but I will lose tracking and even one hiccup is enough to tank my score.

    Anyway, it's irrelevant at this point, I'm not trying to sell anyone on WMR 1.0 lol. I was just trying to convey that considering what they did with just two cameras, I'm excited to see what happens with 4. I'm thinking with the alignment on them though, down by the hip may be able to be caught but up above is probably still going to be crappy without looking up.
    You would know better than I how it is with 2 cameras since I never used the reverb 1. I think based on what you say reverb did about as good as you could do with 2 cameras which makes 4 cameras on g2 look promising.
  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,947 Valuable Player
    Hmm, yeah, I like to put my resin slowly in my backpack in Alyx, so I hold my hand with the resin for at least 30 seconds on the back behind my neck everytime. So far no problems with that  B)
    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,987 Valuable Player
    edited June 3
    inovator said:
    You would know better than I how it is with 2 cameras since I never used the reverb 1. I think based on what you say reverb did about as good as you could do with 2 cameras which makes 4 cameras on g2 look promising.
    Yea, what they did with only 2 cameras is impressive, but it fell short of being good enough for all VR games.

    With the 4 cameras on the Reverb G2 and if they work as well individually as the two on current WMR do....I'd wager you're going to have a lot more consistency in games like beat saber when you're swinging from the sides for long periods of time. Also games like 2MD football where you're doing a throwing motion which is out of camera. (Currently you rely on the 2 second prediction in a lot of the throws and you can get some errant throws if you take too long). And even for some reaching as long as you aren't reaching straight up, those side cameras should catch it. I'm looking forward to hear hands on reviews.


    Also, this was a video i posted last year some time when we were talking about WMR. This is me playing beat saber on my odyssey on expert. I can't do any better than this on my Quest. I didn't realize the SteamVR thing was in the way as I started the capture from in the headset lol. 



  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,584 Valuable Player



    Also, this was a video i posted last year some time when we were talking about WMR. This is me playing beat saber on my odyssey on expert. I can't do any better than this on my Quest. I didn't realize the SteamVR thing was in the way as I started the capture from in the headset lol. 



    That's impressive. I'm starting to get a little more excited about possibly owning the g2 with 2nd to none visuals. If this was an oculus product I would preorder.
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,972 Valuable Player
    One thing I would make note of - I find it really funny that WMR and Oculus both use optical tracking - but they went to Steam for the game/store support and not Oculus. It makes me wonder if this will hurt Oculus more and more as time continues not working with others and trying to be their own "thing".
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,584 Valuable Player
    Mradr said:
    One thing I would make note of - I find it really funny that WMR and Oculus both use optical tracking - but they went to Steam for the game/store support and not Oculus. It makes me wonder if this will hurt Oculus more and more as time continues not working with others and trying to be their own "thing".
    I think they went to steam only because oculus is a closed system. Oculus originally was going to nix revive but there was to much push back so they allowed it.
     
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,452 Valuable Player
    edited June 4
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,987 Valuable Player
    edited June 4
    I saw them but don't know much about the tech. I'm guessing they're cost prohibitive or have some other drawback. Would be a true next gen tech if not. 
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,584 Valuable Player
    Its interesting and has eye tracking and is expensive. But it only has 101 fov which makes me more interested in the g2.
  • LuciferousLuciferous Posts: 2,452 Valuable Player
    edited June 4
    I wasn't interested in the headset but the technology for controller tracking. Wonder if patented.
  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,972 Valuable Player
    edited June 4
    pyroth309 said:
    I saw them but don't know much about the tech. I'm guessing they're cost prohibitive or have some other drawback. Would be a true next gen tech if not. 
    They cost something like 700 and 900 with or without the eye tracking. As for the tech of tracking - its nothing new. The problem with the type of tracking is it drifts over time. I would assume with better IMUs and a "reset" with the cameras that drift is fix. Its something I would love to see in the next Touch controllers as it would remove the need for "guessing" as much and with its current cameras + better IMUs would allow 100% coverage thus being one of the best combo tracking methods around with no setup at all. I've posted about this in another thread some where on the forums. What's also cool about the tech is that they could be used for tracking other body parts. I guess cost would also be a down side. Its not as cheap as optical - but still cheaper than the tracking method design by steam. 

    For me, I am more interested in the eye tracking - in that - this is one of the first headsets to have eye tracking under the 1000$ mark with still some good specs and using another tracking method outside of optional or laser. 
  • kojackkojack Posts: 6,577 Volunteer Moderator

    inovator said:
    Its interesting and has eye tracking and is expensive. But it only has 101 fov which makes me more interested in the g2.
    It's not a G2 competitor though, it's a Quest competitor.
    It's an android based stand alone headset with a Snapdragon 845 (Quest has the 835).


    Mradr said:
    As for the tech of tracking - its nothing new. The problem with the type of tracking is it drifts over time. I would assume with better IMUs and a "reset" with the cameras that drift is fix.
    The controllers shouldn't drift, except when the electromagnetic tracking fails and it falls back on pure IMU accumulation (which is the same for Rift, Vive, Index, Reverb, etc). It will decrease precision and probably jitter a lot as it gets further from the base station (like the Hydra) but will still have relatively consistent positioning.

  • MradrMradr Posts: 3,972 Valuable Player
    edited June 5
    kojack said:
    Mradr said:
    As for the tech of tracking - its nothing new. The problem with the type of tracking is it drifts over time. I would assume with better IMUs and a "reset" with the cameras that drift is fix.
    The controllers shouldn't drift, except when the electromagnetic tracking fails and it falls back on pure IMU accumulation (which is the same for Rift, Vive, Index, Reverb, etc). It will decrease precision and probably jitter a lot as it gets further from the base station (like the Hydra) but will still have relatively consistent positioning.

    Not sure on this version of it - but past version have had all drift issues that caused it to be off from the user current position and precision was also lost in the process. Again, not new, even Magic Leap used it. Electromagnetic also has issue with other electromagnetic around the room as well. I assume the new "magic" in that core is what improve. I also remember the Hydra having some drift too. I know this type of tracking can be also improve over time not just in hardware - but even software can help improve its ability to track the controllers (witch is good to have that fine control). I say with a mix of optical for the more fine movements in the front and using EM for everything not in front of the user - it be more than able to handle 99-100% of most user actions just fine. You could even have it switch off and on to help save power as well if it was fast enough.

    Also: https://3dcoil.grupopremo.com/
    I wonder if that is the same company?

    Also: https://blog.tobii.com/realistic-virtual-vision-with-dynamic-foveated-rendering-135cbee59ee7
    Eye tracking with the Tobii team on the FOVA they're working on. Really impressive - base off the data it looks like a 4 or 5000 NV card will allow us to hit 8k per eye targets :O (if we scale everything as such with other key improvements). That's a massive 25-30 year cut in less than the next 5 years. Display makers might be in trouble lol. As I said before - this is with FOVA + VRS only. Wait till they add DLSS into the mix for DLSS 4-5 and that number might be possible sooner than later. Looks like adding the eye tracking system "only" cost another 230$ as well - so not bad really, but it also shows I am right that it be hard to have both better technology and a bigger screen size will have a hard time fitting into a 400$ price tag that Oculus wants to keep in.

  • jabjab Posts: 251
    Nexus 6
    pyroth309 said:
    This is me playing beat saber on my odyssey on expert. I can't do any better than this on my Quest.
    That might be true. But the first thing I notice when I switch from playing Beat Saber on Quest to the Vive, is how much more crisp and responsive the Vive lighthouse tracking is. On the Quest I often ask my self  "did I really miss that?" because I am pretty sure I did not, while on the Vive there is never any doubt that is was my fault when I miss.
  • pyroth309pyroth309 Posts: 1,987 Valuable Player
    Some more good info but still missing the key one that I'm waiting to hear. Glad to hear they fixed the cable of the first one.

    We don’t usually talk about a headset’s tether in relation to ergonomics, but compared to G1, the new cable on G2 makes a difference. The G1 tether was double-barrel—essentially two cables side-by-side. This caused two issues: the first was weight, as the heavy cable could be felt tugging on the back of the headset, and the second was flexibility, as the double-barrel design reinforces the cable against bending in a certain direction.

    G2 fixes both issues by moving to a single-barrel cable which is pretty much the same width that you’d expect from Index or any other major VR headset. It’s surprising what a difference it makes just to have less tether weight pulling down on the back of the headset.

    Photo by Road to VR

    Quickly, while we’re on the topic of the cable, it’s worth mentioning that G2 has a lengthy 19.5 foot (6m) tether, which is a few feet longer than what you get with Rift S. The extra length is nice just to have more slack for cable management, but there’s an additional unexpected benefit: because WMR headsets have a playspace setup process which uses the headset itself to define the boundary, the extra cable length means you can trace a slightly larger space. That’s nice for anyone who has their PC tucked in the corner, or those with very large playspaces.



  • RuneSR2RuneSR2 Posts: 5,947 Valuable Player
    G2 through the lenses - but hard to tell, Index looks close to photorealistic too in Alyx:


    Intel i7 7700K (4.5 GHz); MSI GeForce GTX 1080 8GB Gaming X (oc 2100 MHz gpu boost, 11 GHz mem speed); 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz; MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC (VR-Ready) mainboard; Samsung 960 Evo M.2 SSD + Toshiba P300 HD; Windows 10 OS; Valve Index and Oculus Rift CV1 - the latter nearly always using super sampling 2.0. 

    "Ask not what VR can do for you – ask what you can do for VR"
  • inovatorinovator Posts: 2,584 Valuable Player
    RuneSR2 said:
    G2 through the lenses - but hard to tell, Index looks close to photorealistic too in Alyx:


    I saw that. I don't own an index but I think you need to try both hands on to tell. My guess would be the g2 will have be on top with visuals. I'm really looking for non sim reviews. 
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