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New Facebook account banned within 10 minutes, photo id submitted, reviewed and cannot be reversed.

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  • jabjab Posts: 295
    Nexus 6
    Zenbane said:
    jab said:
    The solution to me seem obvious. You link your Oculus acount with a FB account for social features, and the Oculus part continue to function regardless of the FB account status. You know, the system already in place. Just call it an FB VR account instead of Oculus, if that makes some exec more happy.

    Yep, and that has already been addressed by Facebook. This is how things should work soon enough.
    So they are just going to recreate the old system that was already up and working for years then?

  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,822 Valuable Player
    Proposal:

    -Separate VR account through Oculus
    -Option to "tether" to social media (not just Facebook)
    -Unique account code tor track users/hardware/purchases

    All the banning stuff can be via a points system through their social media or VR account - with a clear appeals process like with Youtube videos! 
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,700 Valuable Player
    jab said:
    Zenbane said:
    jab said:
    The solution to me seem obvious. You link your Oculus acount with a FB account for social features, and the Oculus part continue to function regardless of the FB account status. You know, the system already in place. Just call it an FB VR account instead of Oculus, if that makes some exec more happy.

    Yep, and that has already been addressed by Facebook. This is how things should work soon enough.
    So they are just going to recreate the old system that was already up and working for years then?


    From what I read (but I'm too lazy to search and quote it right now), they are simply going to segregate the VR HMD's activation and usage from the Facebook Account Status. 

    Or to put that another way, this is how things exist today:
    1. User turns on VR HMD.
    2. VR HMD asks, "is your FB Account status valid?"
    3. If the answer is Yes, then user can proceed to use FB VR.
    4. If the answer is NO, then user cannot proceed to use FB VR. 

    It seems like the plan is for Facebook to remove Step 2 in that process. On top of the fact that this step probably shouldn't be there, the FB AI directly impacts this step.
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  • jabjab Posts: 295
    Nexus 6
    edited October 15
    I think Facebook social media site contracts 15,000 people to moderate/manage users worldwide. With a recommendation being that that number needs to double and would benefit from being brought in-house. Even then, that would equate to 1 person for every 90,000 accounts. And there were 100 million additional active users in Q2 this year alone.
    I get all that, but it is irrelevant (or at least should be from a legal standpoint) to your ability to use a VR headset.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,700 Valuable Player
    kevinw729 said:
    All the banning stuff can be via a points system through their social media or VR account - with a clear appeals process like with Youtube videos! 

    Youtube is notorious for auto-bans and auto-defunding. That's why so many YouTubers turn to other mediums like Twitch and Patreon. I would certainly not count YouTube as a standard for doing social media properly.
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  • jabjab Posts: 295
    Nexus 6
    edited October 15
    Zenbane said:
    1. User turns on VR HMD.
    2. VR HMD asks, "is your FB Account status valid?"
    3. If the answer is Yes, then user can proceed to use FB VR.
    4. If the answer is NO, then user cannot proceed to use FB VR. 

    This is classic catch 22.  I FB requires you to have a FB account when you purchase their product, then they cannot prevent you from making said account. They also cannot remove said account at a later stage, if this degrades your product performance to something not advertised. This is basic consumer rights.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,700 Valuable Player
    jab said:
    Zenbane said:
    1. User turns on VR HMD.
    2. VR HMD asks, "is your FB Account status valid?"
    3. If the answer is Yes, then user can proceed to use FB VR.
    4. If the answer is NO, then user cannot proceed to use FB VR. 

    This is classic catch 22.  I FB requires you to have a FB account when you purchase their product, then they cannot prevent you from making said account. They also cannot remove said account at a later stage, if this degrades your product performance to something not advertised. This is basic consumer rights.

    That's actually not entirely true. There are at least 10 Regions where Facebook is banned. In those cases, Facebook is legally obligated to prevent you from using their services.

    There's a difference between actual consumer rights versus our own individual interpretation of what consumer rights should be.
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  • jabjab Posts: 295
    Nexus 6
    edited October 15
    Where I live at least, as in most of Europa and EU. These are actual consumer rights.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,700 Valuable Player
    jab said:
    Where I live at least, as in most of Europa and EU. These are actual consumer rights.

    EU doesn't represent everyone though (e.g. Brexit). And Facebook is based in the US.
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  • jabjab Posts: 295
    Nexus 6
    edited October 15
    Now you are just fishing for an arguement..
  • DaftnDirectDaftnDirect Posts: 6,305 Volunteer Moderator
    edited October 15
    From what we've gleaned since Facebook bought Oculus, the purpose of the acquisition is to bring Facebook into the future which they see as being VR.

    The fundamental aim for them (as I see it) wouldn't be one of selling as many headsets as possible, it would be to bring as many people as possible into a VR version of Facebook, with the headsets being the facilitator.

    People have a choice not to use Facebook (by buying another headset) or not to use social VR at all, but I don't think there's any gain from Facebook's point of view to have it as an option, if it's their fundamental aim and the reason they bought Oculus.

    Equally it's probably not seen as a loss to Facebook, if people buy other headsets (because they don't want a Facebook account)... if the fundamental aim is to have Facebook VR users, because those users are unlikely to ever be Facebook users.

    I agree with anyone who wants it as an option. I want it as an option and have said so from the first time it was discussed (wasn't there a poll?). But if we agree what Facebook's aim is (anyone's free to disagree), what is the benefit to Facebook of having it as an option?

    From their point of view...
    Selling a lot of headsets is an aim, but only in as much as it brings users to Facebook VR.
    Selling lots of software is an aim but only in as much as it sells a lot of headsets.
    The fundamental aim comes back to that of having Facebook VR users.
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,700 Valuable Player
    jab said:
    Now you are just fishing for an arguement..

    Not sure how that conclusion was derived. I didn't bring up the EU, you did. I was just pointing out how it applies to the current situation, with the EU being limited in scope and Facebook being a US company. I'm not sure how those facts fish for an argument.

    Regardless, if we're going to bring the EU in to this discussion, then let's observe the facts. For example, is the EU putting forth any action against Facebook for this very specific situation? If not then, there's nothing to discuss about the EU until they do take action. Anything else is just specuation.
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  • JohnnyDioxinJohnnyDioxin Posts: 2,714 Valuable Player
    edited October 15
    The problem is, as I see it, so many are behaving as if this is an earth-shattering screw-up by FB and that the media hounds will be baying until blood has been extracted etc etc.

    But it isn't - it's almost nothing at all. How many people use VR? How many are buying Quest 2? How many TV news have/will you see even the smallest reference to this on? How many established newspapers will print a single letter about it?

    It won't do FB much harm at all - they've weathered much more massive things than this tiny speck of a complaint. Just cos it affects you, possibly in a way you feel is meaningful, doesn't mean it's a big issue. Something to bear in mind.

    That said, I'm hoping that someone will take legal action, just so that we can see what happens and find out properly how they stand in legal terms and what would be deemed acceptable and what wouldn't.

    oh - and I've somehow got a feeling that this would be different things in different parts of the world!

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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,700 Valuable Player
    The problem is, as I see it, so many are behaving as if this is an earth-shattering screw-up by FB and that the media hounds will be baying until blood has been extracted etc etc.

    But it isn't - it's almost nothing at all. How many people use VR? How many are buying Quest 2? How many TV news have/will you see even the smallest reference to this on? How many established newspapers will print a single letter about it?

    Yup. The issue needs to be addressed for sure, but it is certainly not a large as it is made out to be. If we were to read only the posts by those directly impacted, then the number is very miniscule. At least so far. The issue just gets convoluted because the discussion draws in discussion from consumers who are not directly impacted. In this thread, for example, we have 4 pages of conversation... but only 1 person has actually been banned from FB. 

    If we look at the forum overall, there are far more people having open discussion about their "positive" experiences.

    And if we check the Facebook Quest Group... there are over 10,000 people doing just fine.

    That doesn't mean the problem shouldn't be addressed. But this problem is certainly not part of the norm. I would consider this situation an... unfortunate exception to an otherwise fantastic Quest 2 launch.
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  • synchromesh62synchromesh62 Posts: 314
    Trinity
    edited October 15
    Posted in another thread about users who have merged to wrong Facebook account and cannot undo it.
    If a hard reset will not allow you to reconnect to the correct FB account or a different one does that mean you guys can never sell it as it will always be merged to that one and only FB account ... Forever ? 
    Or perhaps would the new user get to setup his own personal details before he gets to the FB account merge ?
    My way of thinking was if the serial Number was tied to the account indefinitely as Support seem to require it 
  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 6,213 Volunteer Moderator
    Posted in another thread about users who have merged to wrong Facebook account and cannot undo it.
    If a hard reset will not allow you to reconnect to the correct FB account or a different one does that mean you guys can never sell it as it will always be merged to that one and only FB account ... Forever ? 
    Or perhaps would the new user get to setup his own personal details before he gets to the FB account merge ?
    My way of thinking was if the serial Number was tied to the account indefinitely as Support seem to require it 
    The hardware isn’t merged to their Facebook accounts, it’s their Oculus account that is. It seems that some number of people, when creating a new Facebook account during Quest 2 activation, missed the prompt to merge their old Oculus account. Once they get to the point of choosing a VR username, they’ve essentially created a new Oculus account that is permanently merged to their Facebook account. Since you can only merge one Oculus account to a Facebook account, they can’t access their games on the old Oculus account or merge that account to their Facebook account. 
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  • synchromesh62synchromesh62 Posts: 314
    Trinity
    @nalex66
    Got ya . Ye makes perfect sense now... Of course i was thinking hardware merge rather than account merge.
    Thanks for the explanation.
  • falken76falken76 Posts: 3,053 Valuable Player
    But you haven't replied to the offer of help when it was given... I think I see where this is going so I'll leave this thread to you guys.

    What is he supposed to do?  Chase them down through multiple channels and force them to give him support?  I understand his desire to want to just return the damn thing.  I was sure this would happen with facebook.  Granted this is a transitional period so maybe it'll be different in the future.  But as it is, it appears that bans do in fact bar you from even being able to use your hardware and software that paid real world money for.   I hope for the OPs sake he bought his games on Steam and not this locked ecco system.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,700 Valuable Player
    falken76 said:
    But you haven't replied to the offer of help when it was given... I think I see where this is going so I'll leave this thread to you guys.

    What is he supposed to do?  Chase them down through multiple channels and force them to give him support?  

    Yes. Actually. Otherwise his request will be stuck in a Support Queue and he'll have to wait a few days. Chasing down support is how you get your own issue escalated to the top of a queue. It sucks, but it's also standard in every line of business over the last few decades.
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  • OmegaM4NOmegaM4N Posts: 1,048
    Wintermute
    edited October 16
    kevinw729 said:
    OmegaM4N said:
    .....
    I suspect FB will announce or put out a statement real soon on this issue as it's spreading around various sites now, and judging by the Quest reddit forums alone with users having major issues with FB even with real FB accounts, just a complete pr disaster of their own making, and it would be amusing to watch FB once again stick their foot squarely in their gob if it were not for the fact this is impacting on consumers who spent good money on a product and are now left with nothing due to FBs incompetence, so i suspect the more sites that start picking this up the quicker FB might be forced to fix this.

    Would seem to be the logical PR spin to address what is a serious optic for the corporation. No matter how many try and claim there is no problem from what we are reading on the Reddit and also the other forums there needs to be a distancing of management from what is snowballing and could impact the Quest 2 launch.

    Well that did not tale to long, Boz made a reply and it's up over on the Quest reddit.........basically MS, Apple and Google all do this so it's not a issue.......oh but the best bit was, and i quote "make sure your FB account is in good standing before you buy a Quest 2".......and as you can guess, that is going down great over there. lol


  • kevinw729kevinw729 Posts: 5,822 Valuable Player
    OmegaM4N said:
    .....
    Well that did not tale to long, Boz made a reply and it's up over on the Quest reddit.........basically MS, Apple and Google all do this so it's not a issue.......oh but the best bit was, and i quote "make sure your FB account is in good standing before you buy a Quest 2".......and as you can guess, that is going down great over there. lol



    Thanks, just saw this @OmegaM4N.
    That is not a good look, or a good defense - the company does not normally associate its activities in comparison with other corporations. If this was a rushed "damage limitation" effort that may not be fully sanctioned by corporate. They will not like the optics - and the inevitable community backlash to it. Also the "...ensure your account is in good standing before buying Quest 2..."[paraphrase] was a stupid statement to make, adding fuel to the fire as can be seen by the storm that followed in the comments, and across the forums.

    Time for Facebook corporate to step in over the weekend and dial down this situation.
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  • HaselHoofHaselHoof Posts: 132
    Art3mis
    From what we've gleaned since Facebook bought Oculus, the purpose of the acquisition is to bring Facebook into the future which they see as being VR.

    The fundamental aim for them (as I see it) wouldn't be one of selling as many headsets as possible, it would be to bring as many people as possible into a VR version of Facebook, with the headsets being the facilitator.

    People have a choice not to use Facebook (by buying another headset) or not to use social VR at all, but I don't think there's any gain from Facebook's point of view to have it as an option, if it's their fundamental aim and the reason they bought Oculus.

    Equally it's probably not seen as a loss to Facebook, if people buy other headsets (because they don't want a Facebook account)... if the fundamental aim is to have Facebook VR users, because those users are unlikely to ever be Facebook users.

    I agree with anyone who wants it as an option. I want it as an option and have said so from the first time it was discussed (wasn't there a poll?). But if we agree what Facebook's aim is (anyone's free to disagree), what is the benefit to Facebook of having it as an option?

    From their point of view...
    Selling a lot of headsets is an aim, but only in as much as it brings users to Facebook VR.
    Selling lots of software is an aim but only in as much as it sells a lot of headsets.
    The fundamental aim comes back to that of having Facebook VR users.

    Well said
  • BatLBBatLB Posts: 45
    Brain Burst
    Facebook can do whatever they want, they just have to make sure not to BAN Facebook Accounts completely, but just take any capabilities to post or communicate to other Users. So you can "limit" fake accounts without rendering Hardware useless.

    Seems too complicated to the Zuckerbrain.
  • DaAuronDaAuron Posts: 9
    Brain Burst
    OmegaM4N said:

    Well that did not tale to long, Boz made a reply and it's up over on the Quest reddit.........basically MS, Apple and Google all do this so it's not a issue.......oh but the best bit was, and i quote "make sure your FB account is in good standing before you buy a Quest 2".......and as you can guess, that is going down great over there. lol

    Yeah.. lots of problems with what he said. Microsoft doesn't require good standing on Linkedin to use your Xbox. You don't even need an MS account to use an Xbox at all. If you get banned from Youtube for whatever reason, your Google Pixel phone isn't locked out. Bad social behavior on PSN isn't going to lock you out of your Playstation or your Sony TV. Apple doesn't even have a social media network. None of the mentioned companies require a limitation of 1 account per identity. None of them hold your hardware hostage from AI-driven judgement of account status.

    Comparing to the other companies is, quite frankly, disingenuous and is an outright lie. This really only infuriates me more. "Strong guarantees around things like data security" - I don't think Facebook is known for that, sorry. That's another lie. "I'm a big fan of this still" - yes, because you work for them and more users being integrated looks good for YOU. No one cares what YOU think, Boz.

    The huge fuss here is we don't want to be beholden to hardware and digital content like China's social credit system. User behavior should not dictate permission to use purchased hardware. Period.

    Data collection? Yeah, fine, whatever. It's creepy, it's awful, all the other companies do it. Duh. That's not what the problem is here, and he's really just glossing over the real issue. He didn't even apologize. He said "it matters to us", but it's not that you actually care or empathize - it's PR damage control, so of course you care about the PR. But actually care? Doubtful, otherwise we wouldn't be at this crossroads to begin with!

    If you want to improve the system for the best experience for everyone, have at it! I'd love to see improvements here. But do not lie about how it compares to the rest of the industries and expect to not get backlash for your sloppy damage control.
  • RedRizlaRedRizla Posts: 7,958 Valuable Player
    edited October 16
    BatLB said:
    Facebook can do whatever they want, they just have to make sure not to BAN Facebook Accounts completely, but just take any capabilities to post or communicate to other Users. So you can "limit" fake accounts without rendering Hardware useless.

    Seems too complicated to the Zuckerbrain.

    But a Facebook social media account is all about posting and communicating with others. That's why it's called a social media account. Now do you see why creating an account like this even to play single player VR games is a bit daft.
  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,700 Valuable Player
    jab said:
     And it shows that people high up in FB don't see a problem with it, and that frankly is even scarier.


    It probably seems scarier looking from the outside in. It's not all that scary when you take a more objective view. Real life is far, far scarier.
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  • TomCgcmfcTomCgcmfc Posts: 2,828 Valuable Player
    Only minor problem I have with FB is that I cannot change my email address to my current main address (my Oculus account address).  Works fine with my alternative one though. 

    Reason being that my original FB account got hacked into a few times ~10 years ago so I had FB delete the account and I started my current one ~8 years ago.  However, now when I try to change my email address back it says I can't do this because it is already assigned to another account.  I tried to sign into this old account but it keeps asking me for photo verification or otherwise the account will be locked.  Probably not a big deal since I don't really need it anyway and I'm afraid that if I reactivate it I'll lose my current FB account linked to my Oculus account.

    Sometimes FB makes thing way more complicated than necessary imho.

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  • nalex66nalex66 Posts: 6,213 Volunteer Moderator
    edited October 16
    Just saw on Reddit that OP’s account access has been restored. There is hope. 
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  • ZenbaneZenbane Posts: 16,700 Valuable Player
    nalex66 said:
    Just saw on Reddit that OP’s account access has been restored. There is hope. 

    So it took 3 days and then all was good? Not too shabby, tbh. Granted, the situation will still get a negative spin in certain settings. But overall, I think this is definitely progress in the right direction.

    By this time next year, this lockout situation will be a thing of the past. Another momentary blip in the radar that will get brought up randomly debates; like the DRM check. lol
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