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'Bug-Fix Build'

mbzdmvpmbzdmvp Posts: 66
Hiro Protagonist
edited May 2015 in VR Jam 2015
Hello,

So I hope I am not the only one confused about the latest email. What is considered a 'bug-fix build' ?

What prevents people from adding new content in the next week? Wasn't this the whole point of the deadline?

Reddit discussion: http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments ... extension/
VR Jam 2015: Inside The Human Body
Forum Post: viewtopic.php?f=77&t=23266
V29IR5T.png
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Comments

  • tsempletsemple Posts: 17
    NerveGear
    I'm confused by this too. We spent a significant portion of our time doing player tests, bug fixes, and performance improvements. Allowing an extra week of time doesn't seem fair to those of us that allocated jam time to this. If we had known this before we would have spent the final week adding more features knowing that we could spend the week after fixing all the bugs. Changing the rules after the end of the jam doesn't seem fair to me.
  • nilstasticnilstastic Posts: 140
    Art3mis
    I agree. I spent the last two days making sure that it should run as smooth as possible and also did extensive playtesting (i got 25 videos of people looking weird and jumping around) that took up a considerable amount of time.

    And, i do know that we have had issues with lollipop but i do think i read somewhere that the judges will run kitkat? The community vote is another issue but since the global signing tool is up everyone is free to provide additional fixed apk's anyway.

    So. Not sure how i feel about this.
  • emolanoemolano Posts: 35
    does not seem fair. I had two apps and only posted one because invested a lot of time on testing. Would have know there was an extra time to fix bugs maybe I could have finished the second app.
  • drashdrash Posts: 2,849
    Neo
    From the rules:
    In the first round of the judging process, the Judges will also perform a cursory review of the Entrant’s Software primarily to confirm that the Software will function as described in the selected materials. In the event that the Judges are unable to get an Entrant’s Software to function after reasonable efforts, that Entrant may be disqualified. Notwithstanding any other provision to the contrary, the Judges may (in either round of the judging process) contact Entrant to request a bug fix or other minor modification to the Software to address a functionality or stability issue (any a “Bug Fix”) or implement any Big Fix provided by Entrant after the Submission Period and may, in judging an Entry, consider the Software as modified by any such Bug Fix. However, the decision to request or implement any Bug Fix is within Sponsor’s sole discretion. Sponsor will be under no obligation to request a Bug Fix or implement any Bug Fix provided and may disqualify any Entrant whose Software is not completely functional when submitted in this Contest.

    However, the email we all just got is a bit different in nature than being contacted to address specific bug/stability issues. If everyone is submitting new builds, how can they possibly enforce that any changes aren't huge new chunks of content? While my entry doesn't really have any bugs at this point, I don't have a week to spend on further improvements so does that mean other entries will get an extra week?
  • nilstasticnilstastic Posts: 140
    Art3mis
    drash wrote:
    From the rules:
    In the first round of the judging process, the Judges will also perform a cursory review of the Entrant’s Software primarily to confirm that the Software will function as described in the selected materials. In the event that the Judges are unable to get an Entrant’s Software to function after reasonable efforts, that Entrant may be disqualified. Notwithstanding any other provision to the contrary, the Judges may (in either round of the judging process) contact Entrant to request a bug fix or other minor modification to the Software to address a functionality or stability issue (any a “Bug Fix”) or implement any Big Fix provided by Entrant after the Submission Period and may, in judging an Entry, consider the Software as modified by any such Bug Fix. However, the decision to request or implement any Bug Fix is within Sponsor’s sole discretion. Sponsor will be under no obligation to request a Bug Fix or implement any Bug Fix provided and may disqualify any Entrant whose Software is not completely functional when submitted in this Contest.

    However, the email we all just got is a bit different in nature than being contacted to address specific bug/stability issues. If everyone is submitting new builds, how can they possibly enforce that any changes aren't huge new chunks of content? While my entry doesn't really have any bugs at this point, I don't have a week to spend on further improvements so does that mean other entries will get an extra week?

    I agree. Being asked to fix a bug is fair, and was expected. This however, is (probably) not.
  • AnticlericAnticleric Posts: 525 Oculus Start Member
    I call shenanigans... big time.
    A month is plenty of time to get your build working. This gives a huge and unfair advantage to the those that have the spare time.

    The rules say that people with issues would be contacted directly, not that the entire jam will be extended by a week.

    shenanigans
  • spire8989spire8989 Posts: 337
    Hiro Protagonist
    Maybe a little unfair, but doesn't seem like that big of a deal. They chose Monday so that people with 9-5's can get some fixes in and not be left behind. You still have to get past the first round to be able to submit a bug-fix build anyway.

    Seems like you guys are overreacting.
  • AnticlericAnticleric Posts: 525 Oculus Start Member
    spire8989 wrote:
    Maybe a little unfair, but doesn't seem like that big of a deal. They chose Monday so that people with 9-5's can get some fixes in and not be left behind. You still have to get past the first round to be able to submit a bug-fix build anyway.

    Seems like you guys are overreacting.

    What about those with a 9-9 job that already allocated an entire month? And those that take this time to add a bunch of content? Or make changes based on feedback and what they learned from other entries? Not cool IMO
  • CodaFrostCodaFrost Posts: 84
    Hiro Protagonist
    spire8989 wrote:
    Maybe a little unfair, but doesn't seem like that big of a deal. They chose Monday so that people with 9-5's can get some fixes in and not be left behind. You still have to get past the first round to be able to submit a bug-fix build anyway.

    Seems like you guys are overreacting.
    Actually it's not unfair at all. They are still judging who gets into the finals based upon original deadline submission criteria.
    Per the email: "You may modify your build link and other materials here to share with the community, though judges will be rating your original submission."

    They are still judging who is getting into the finals based on the original deadline submissions, so not sure what all the fussing is about. If your game is good, it will be judged upon it's own merit in the end anyway. However, if a few extra days of bug fixing is enough to put the competition ahead of you - well then what does that say about your game..?
  • mbzdmvpmbzdmvp Posts: 66
    Hiro Protagonist
    Actually it's not unfair at all. They are still judging who gets into the finals based upon original deadline submission criteria.
    Per the email: "You may modify your build link and other materials here to share with the community, though judges will be rating your original submission."

    They are still judging who is getting into the finals based on the original deadline submissions, so not sure what all the fussing is about. If your game is good, it will be judged upon it's own merit in the end anyway. However, if a few extra days of bug fixing is enough to put the competition ahead of you - well then what does that say about your game..?

    I don't think you understood the email. The apps will not be tested in the first round. The Oculus team is judging first round submissions based off Description, Images, and Videos as described here: viewtopic.php?f=77&t=22928 .

    Secondly as others mentioned, some of us have allocated more time to polishing and bug fixing rather than adding new content. This creates an unfair advantage for people who now get to fix their bugs post deadline.
    VR Jam 2015: Inside The Human Body
    Forum Post: viewtopic.php?f=77&t=23266
    V29IR5T.png
  • HelloMeowHelloMeow Posts: 99
    Hiro Protagonist
    Anticleric wrote:
    I call shenanigans... big time.
    A month is plenty of time to get your build working. This gives a huge and unfair advantage to the those that have the spare time.

    The rules say that people with issues would be contacted directly, not that the entire jam will be extended by a week.

    shenanigans

    Yup.

    I don't like this either. I'm still working on my game, because I have the time to do so. It wouldn't be fair.
    VRJam: Hexagon
  • EMcNeillEMcNeill Posts: 158
    Art3mis
    I'd appreciate a statement clarifying that this is intended specifically for bug fixes and not for changing or adding content, even if we have to rely on the honor system. Otherwise, I'd feel a strong pressure to start crunching again, which I'd really like to avoid.
  • nilstasticnilstastic Posts: 140
    Art3mis
    EMcNeill wrote:
    I'd appreciate a statement clarifying that this is intended specifically for bug fixes and not for changing or adding content, even if we have to rely on the honor system. Otherwise, I'd feel a strong pressure to start crunching again, which I'd really like to avoid.

    +1
  • NilspferdNilspferd Posts: 51
    if people are allowed to do bug fixes, I want to be allowed to do screenshot fixes, video fixes and description fixes too! Seriosly, we spend the nearly the whole last week only fixing all those tiny details, getting the performance right and just providing a plesurable and as BUG-FREE experience as possible. If we'd know that, we also would have focused on some great marketted description and screenshots instead. This is really unfair!
  • branditosonbranditoson Posts: 60
    Thanks for the feedback - it sounds like the update was not specific enough. Per the rules, we will screen the original builds in Round 1 judging, and if the build does not reflect what was described and shown in the video, description, etc, they won’t qualify to continue as a finalist.

    In addition, to be fair to all finalists, we will accept one new build per submission with minor fixes. If it is changed drastically such that it no longer represents the original materials, the build will not qualify to be updated. That said, it’s not feasible to moderate every single change someone slips in with a “bug fix”, so we’re not disallowing small changes. However, major notable differences between the original submission and the "bug-fix" build will not be accepted.
  • mbzdmvpmbzdmvp Posts: 66
    Hiro Protagonist
    Thanks for the reply branditoson.
    That said, it’s not feasible to moderate every single change someone slips in with a “bug fix”, so we’re not disallowing small changes. However, major notable differences between the original submission and the "bug-fix" build will not be accepted.

    So essentially we can still work on our apps unless we do something drastic like add a new scene. Sounds a lot like the deadline was extended. I still stand by my point that this violates the rules provided at the beginning of the jam. I don't think I've ever heard of a game jam that extended the deadline for 'bug-fixes' but also allowed small changes. I guess I'll be spending the next week improving my experience...
    VR Jam 2015: Inside The Human Body
    Forum Post: viewtopic.php?f=77&t=23266
    V29IR5T.png
  • greyspheregreysphere Posts: 36
    Brain Burst
    This seems like an even less fair solution. We spent easily 100+ hours on performance and 'bug fixes' during the last week of the jam. Now teams that didn't address these issues within the competition bounds will get to spend that time this week, and now with this clarification we are disallowed from adding a new weeks worth of content, effectively giving some folks a 5 week dev cycle while others only get the original 4.
  • AnticlericAnticleric Posts: 525 Oculus Start Member
    Thanks for the feedback - it sounds like the update was not specific enough. Per the rules, we will screen the original builds in Round 1 judging, and if the build does not reflect what was described and shown in the video, description, etc, they won’t qualify to continue as a finalist.

    In addition, to be fair to all finalists, we will accept one new build per submission with minor fixes. If it is changed drastically such that it no longer represents the original materials, the build will not qualify to be updated. That said, it’s not feasible to moderate every single change someone slips in with a “bug fix”, so we’re not disallowing small changes. However, major notable differences between the original submission and the "bug-fix" build will not be accepted.

    How will you know how much has changed if the original build does not run? Optimization, sound, game balance etc, will may not be shown in the description and video.

    Why not take back the extension, and only contact those with game braking bugs in their m4 upload as stated in the official rules?
  • NilspferdNilspferd Posts: 51
    In addition, to be fair to all finalists, we will accept one new build per submission with minor fixes. If it is changed drastically such that it no longer represents the original materials, the build will not qualify to be updated. That said, it’s not feasible to moderate every single change someone slips in with a “bug fix”, so we’re not disallowing small changes. However, major notable differences between the original submission and the "bug-fix" build will not be accepted.

    Sorry to disagree, but it is unfair, as some people spend much of their energy getting the game bug free instead of providing great marketing content. If you would have make that clear upfront, we would have set our priorities on other tasks first. So basically the people who focussed on good marketing (instead of creating a working game) are getting one free week to fix all those bugs (and as you said also other changes, as it's not feasible to moderate them). Honestly, why did you change the rules? I really can't understand this.
  • dnhkngdnhkng Posts: 37
    Brain Burst
    OK, I was one of the people who wrote to the VR Jam administrators to ask for a bug-fix/testing option.

    I saw this in the rules:
    Notwithstanding any other provision to the contrary, the Judges may (in either round of the judging process) contact Entrant to request a bug fix or other minor modification to the Software to address a functionality or stability issue (any a “Bug Fix”) or implement any Big Fix provided by Entrant after the Submission Period and may, in judging an Entry, consider the Software as modified by any such Bug Fix. However, the decision to request or implement any Bug Fix is within Sponsor’s sole discretion.

    Well, I don't have a GearVR to test on, and I will be away and completely unavailable for bug fixing during the judging period, so I wrote to the Judges:
    Would a preliminary judge be able to test my build today, to make sure it runs? It should be fine, but I would like to be sure before I leave for peace-of-mind.

    Anyway, I spent the last 40 hours of the VR Jam trying to get my build running on the Gear VR (it ran on PC and Mac fine...), as you can see if you look at my posting history, so I also lost lots of time I could have used spending on getting my submission description polished.

    However, I think I have a good solution for everyone. How about anyone who uses the Bug-fix option HAS TO release patch notes. That way they have to document what changes have been made, and the judges can quickly see if the changes are legitimate bug fixes.

    If they cheat, and fail to mention the extra levels/artwork/design changes they have made,they would be caught as all winners entries MUST be compared to the submission made on the May 11th. That would be easy to do, as there winners list is not so long. It also means the judges don't have to check all 300+ entries.
  • rjmig88rjmig88 Posts: 83
    I hate to be that guy but I'm eternally grateful Oculus is allowing us a bug fix build. They can easily compare old and new builds and so I don't think any of the finalists will risk it. I had a Exynos Note 4 which had a ton of issues working around and I didn't think of to test the Snapdragon version. Players on snapdragon have reported that my button mappings don't work and I can't figure out why that would be. I didn't find out until after the game jam when more people were testing it. I'm super glad Oculus is giving us a bug fix chance and so I'm next day airing a snapdragon note 4 to test on 4.4 kitkat for my issues.

    I did reach out to Oculus. I didn't ask them directly for a chance to bug fix but I did mention that they may have to try a key remap program if my buttons don't work for them. I'm thrilled that they are listening to the community. And I've crunched every night and put in over 100 hours for optimizing graphics, bug fixing, etc too.
  • AnticlericAnticleric Posts: 525 Oculus Start Member
    rjmig88 wrote:
    I hate to be that guy but I'm eternally grateful Oculus is allowing us a bug fix build. They can easily compare old and new builds and so I don't think any of the finalists will risk it. I had a Exynos Note 4 which had a ton of issues working around and I didn't think of to test the Snapdragon version. Players on snapdragon have reported that my button mappings don't work and I can't figure out why that would be. I didn't find out until after the game jam when more people were testing it. I'm super glad Oculus is giving us a bug fix chance and so I'm next day airing a snapdragon note 4 to test on 4.4 kitkat for my issues.

    I did reach out to Oculus. I didn't ask them directly for a chance to bug fix but I did mention that they may have to try a key remap program if my buttons don't work for them. I'm thrilled that they are listening to the community. And I've crunched every night and put in over 100 hours for optimizing graphics, bug fixing, etc too.

    Will it take you 5 days to fix this issue? And how exactly can they compare the new build to one that does not run?

    The original rules allow for this issue regardless. They state that if the judges can't get the build working, they can request a fix from the entrant. I'm completely fine with that.
  • mbzdmvpmbzdmvp Posts: 66
    Hiro Protagonist
    rjmig88 wrote:
    I hate to be that guy but I'm eternally grateful Oculus is allowing us a bug fix build. They can easily compare old and new builds and so I don't think any of the finalists will risk it.
    So you're saying it will be easy for Oculus to test 61 builds twice and make sure they are not significantly different?
    rjmig88 wrote:
    I had a Exynos Note 4 which had a ton of issues working around and I didn't think of to test the Snapdragon version. Players on snapdragon have reported that my button mappings don't work and I can't figure out why that would be.
    This is the exact scenario where an Oculus employee would specifically reach out to you for a bug-fixed build, compared to most people who don't have such issues.
    VR Jam 2015: Inside The Human Body
    Forum Post: viewtopic.php?f=77&t=23266
    V29IR5T.png
  • dnhkngdnhkng Posts: 37
    Brain Burst
    edited May 2015
    Anticleric wrote:
    And how exactly can they compare the new build to one that does not run?

    Hahaha, well, you are right in principle, but its a pretty funny idea :lol: . Can you imagine the type of Diabolical Developer who would deliberately submit a broken build because they *knew beforehand* they could get other people to convince the Judges to allow an extra week of development time after the cut-off date? If they we're that evilly brilliant, I guess they deserve to win the gamble they took.


    Seriously though, it does raise some questions. I had a tutorial at the beginning of my game. It was just a quad attached to a pivot, who's angle changed with the OVRrig's orientation. It was used to show new users of my game where to look to solve their first puzzle. The code ran fine on Win and Mac, but not in my Gear VR builds, so I had to take it out just a few hours before the competition closed. I believe its posted on an earlier version of my submission. Would I be allowed to add it back in, if I could make it work? Would that count as a feature addition or not?
  • dignifiedwebdignifiedweb Posts: 279
    Art3mis
    I didn't have the ability to test on different Note 4s, but I was thankful to someone on the forums here to try my build. I had someone try my build a week before the deadline though. I was frantically testing building with the global signer as soon as I could. Isn't that part of the challenge? I feel like there are a lot of Jam entries that didn't even submit final APK files and are currently now disqualified because they couldn't bare to send their incomplete APK files. I'm speculating, I know, but what about those people who couldn't make the deadline initially? I feel it's a bit unfair to them too no? But seriously, everyone is telling me my game is awesome, but I have a sinking feeling in my stomach that it's crap because I put my best efforts into this...

    I personally rushed my video editing, because on Sunday night before deadline @ 10:30 PM my time I made the call: "I've got my final deliverable product here whether it runs on their phone or not, it runs on mine, I'm submitting this, need to make a video now."

    TL;DR: Isn't it it unfair to the people who couldn't make the initial deadline? Can we get some clarification on what is being tested in the builds currently submitted? If a build does not run at all, but the video is awesome, will it make it past the qualifying round?
    Check out my Mobile VR Jam 2015 title Man Overboard! - Try the DK2 Version if you don't have a Gear VR
  • NilspferdNilspferd Posts: 51
    dnhkng wrote:
    Anticleric wrote:
    Seriously though, it does raise some questions. I had a tutorial at the beginning of my game. It was just a quad attached to a pivot, who's angle changed with the OVRrig's orientation. It was used to show new users of my game where to look to solve their first puzzle. The code ran fine on Win and Mac, but not in my Gear VR builds, so I had to take it out just a few hours before the competition closed. I believe its posted on an earlier version of my submission. Would I be allowed to add it back in, if I could make it work? Would that count as a feature addition or not?
    If you start testing on the real hardware a few hours before submission, then sorry but it's your own fault. I bought the equipment only for the jam one month ago and tested and optimized from the second week on for the hardware. I believe most of the others participants did it in a similar way. This is a very time consuming process and I would say that at least a quarter of the whole development time our game went on trial and error research on the gear vr - performance and bug wise. That's part of the process of developing for such a platform (especially such a new one). It's the rules we all agreed when participating in the jam, it's just absurd to change them now.
  • JaninaWoodsJaninaWoods Posts: 35
    Nilspferd wrote:
    It's the rules we all agreed when participating in the jam, it's just absurd to change them now.

    It's absurd to make us all sign the rules and then change them... just like that.
    Check out my 2013 VRJam finalist game: http://shinyvr.com/
  • branditosonbranditoson Posts: 60
    Sorry all, we made a mistake when trying to address some launch crashes. We said we would allow a bug fix build re-submission per finalist, but since this cannot be executed fairly, we will not accept additional builds at this point. If you’re a finalist and your build doesn't launch, we’ll get in touch with you and help you resolve it.
  • mbzdmvpmbzdmvp Posts: 66
    Hiro Protagonist
    Sorry all, we made a mistake when trying to address some launch crashes. We said we would allow a bug fix build re-submission per finalist, but since this cannot be executed fairly, we will not accept additional builds at this point. If you’re a finalist and your build doesn't launch, we’ll get in touch with you and help you resolve it.

    Thank you branditoson!

    I really appreciate the fact that you considered community feedback.

    It takes a great deal of courage to admit a mistake!
    VR Jam 2015: Inside The Human Body
    Forum Post: viewtopic.php?f=77&t=23266
    V29IR5T.png
  • NilspferdNilspferd Posts: 51
    +1 thank you so much!
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