cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

Anyone having nausea in the new DevKit?

RedRizla
Honored Visionary
I haven't seen anyone mention it which is a relief, but I just thought i'd ask if anyone is still suffering from nausea in DevKit 2?

How long did you last if you are still getting nauseas?
97 REPLIES 97

kevinw729
Honored Visionary
"Wireline" wrote:
To all those experiencing nausea, has anyone tried over the counter travel sickness meds like Stugeron?


Can I advise that there is a danger to come to rely on meds to address sim-sickness. This is like a sticking plaster on a broken leg - you are covering up the situation rather than addressing the symptoms. This masking can prove counter-productive if not bringing its own risks.

We have said many times in this forum (though usually shouted down by vested interests) that there is an inherent issue for some users of HMD systems (no matter the quality), the same way that we still have individuals that suffer car sickness.

I hope that we are not seeing a backlash against anyone that comments on sim-sickness after the miss-guided comments from some that “…the DK2 has totally alleviated nausea!”

Finally, I agree that the content has its part to play, but I do not think DK2 has nothing to play in the continued appearance of nausea. Lets’ not ignore this, but do what we should have done with the launch of the DK1, and evaluate and calculate instances and symptoms professionally.
https://vrawards.aixr.org/ "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities" https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959

floydfreak
Honored Guest
@bkizzle444 & pam5089 - That's brilliant. It's great to hear the lavender oil helped out, and that you liked that site 😄

@welby - Believe it or not, but It helps with headaches too!


(Important: Just remember to dilute it a bit - there's more info at that site)


I'm hoping I won't have any motion sickness/headaches - but if I do, I have a bottle of of the stuff stashed away.
I don't know if it would help as a preventative? (Before the rift is put on!!) But as it smells so damn nice, I'd be prepared to try!!

And like kevinw729 mentioned about Stugeron - this is no more than a mask.

But I'd personally choose natural stuff over the big pharmaceutical corporations shit any day..
it might help...... 😄

rtweed
Honored Guest
"kevinw729" wrote:
Can I advise that there is a danger to come to rely on meds to address sim-sickness. This is like a sticking plaster on a broken leg - you are covering up the situation rather than addressing the symptoms. This masking can prove counter-productive if not bringing its own risks.


There are two problems to be dealt with separately:

1. Issues with eyestrain caused by mismatches in convergence and focal length between perceived distance and actual distance, or because of incorrect lens type, placement, etc. I don't think this causes nausea so much as it causes headaches, sore/tired eyes and vision problems (temporary loss of accommodation reflex, for example). I've been having more of a problem with this with DK2 than DK1, but I don't really know why.

2. Nausea caused by the disparity between visual stimulus and other stimuli, especially inner-ear and proprioception. This is almost certainly the main cause of nausea and is most acute when moving around in something like Tuscany, so the scene is moving but you aren't moving your head (whereas if you stay still and just look around, you won't have the same problem).

Number #2 is the biggest problem for me and I'm willing to try medication to see if it reduces the symptoms. I'm going to start with ginger root capsules and then move on from there if it's not effective. I would not recommend such an approach to deal with issue #1 because masking those symptoms could lead to permanent eye damage. Issue #2 is an inherent problem with VR and suppressing the response to that kind of simulator sickness should not result in any lasting problems, as you are unlikely to encounter the same sensory disparity anywhere else and thus don't need to worry about overcompensation or rebound effects. Of course you still need to worry about any inherent side-effects that a particular drug might have, but something like ginger root should be quite safe for most people, in moderation.

Still, as a developer, I think it's important to understand how to minimise this kind of nausea in software. One thing that seems to be effective is having some kind of fixed cabin that only moves relative to the players head and gives them a sense of "grounding". Anything that is moving independently is clearly outside, so your brain can feel like it's in a vehicle moving at very low G. I've yet to try out e.g., Elite: Dangerous, but apparently this significantly reduces nausea compared to say, Tuscany, where any time you move, everything moves, causing sensory incongruity. Perhaps being able to see your hands in Tuscany would help (not necessarily real hands, just ones that float in front of your view). I'm not sure how far you need to go for it to be effective. Maybe a certain amount of the screen needs to be covered, or maybe the sense of being in a vehicle is critical. At present, I don't know.

kevinw729
Honored Visionary
"rtweed" wrote:
One thing that seems to be effective is having some kind of fixed cabin that only moves relative to the players head and gives them a sense of "grounding".


What you call a “grounding” @rtweed is an essential element in defining sim-sickness solutions.

When we were developing the study regarding the issues of sim-sickness in defining virtual entertainment application, we saw the data of those experiences that were “Simulator centric” (cockpit) and those that offered “Direct” simulation (in-body view) pointing to simulator approaches as a better path to follow for less issues.

I would have liked a more professional approach to evaluating reaction – as we stated in a recent podcast, there is a danger that this shot gun approach to VR development might miss important elements that could help alleviate sim-sickness (a list of requirements).

It would seem that some manufacturers prefer a trial and error approach rather than investing in serious sim-sickness research (as if hoping to avoid liability!)
https://vrawards.aixr.org/ "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities" https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959

rtweed
Honored Guest
"kevinw729" wrote:
When we were developing the study regarding the issues of sim-sickness...


Is this a scientific study that's published somewhere? I too would be very keen to see hard data on this based on controlled trials rather than anecdotes. As you say, it would be good to know what the best practises are and where the boundaries lie, such as whether it's essential for the player to think they are in a vehicle or if any anchor locked statically to the player's position in virtual space is sufficient to create the required sense of grounding. It would also be useful to know whether such techniques eliminate nausea or merely mitigate the effect, and whether certain individuals are more or less susceptible.

I've also heard about other research into suppressing the senses by other means (electrical or magnetic stimulation) in order to eliminate sim sickness, but I haven't managed to find detailed published references recording the effectiveness, side-effects, etc. It's possible Oculus is working on that kind of research in secret, but it seems unlikely they will have a "hardware solution" for CV1. If nothing else, such a solution would need to undergo rigorous clinical trials.

zarlor
Honored Guest
Just to throw in my 2 cents on the issue (and we all know how little 2 cents is worth these days) I'm one of those folks that has had some issues with sim-sickness in the DK1. Technolust, for example, I was able to get through the demo down to the street before I just had to give up while wearing the DK1 because the nausea become overwhelming. With the DK2 I had plenty of moments of discomfort/slight-queasiness, but I was able to get through the entire thing. That's just one example where so far the improvements in the DK2 seem to alleviate a decent amount of the sim sickness I was experiencing in the DK1. I do think the "best practices" guide still applies, though, in the sense that I think there are things in the DK2 that still do give me discomfort, such as turning, side-stepping and moving in reverse and, I think, some of the lower framerates (I was only getting about 30fps in Technolus, for example) the latter, at least, I hope to rectify around the time CV1 comes available by getting a new rig then.

Obviously any experience which might cause some sickness in real life (like riding the Helix Coaster) is quite capable of causing it in the Rift. Although I should note that even there I was able to get through the entire Helix Coaster demo when I had not been able to do so with the DK1. I did have to close my eyes in a couple of spots to force the nausea down, but even when I had done that previously in the DK1 I couldn't make it all the way. For reference I would expect that coaster might make be a bit woozy in real life but I still enjoy the heck out of coasters like that anyway. I do think that the physicality of the G-forces and how you bodily react to them (adjusting position, pushing against them even yelling with glee) all help take your mind off of the more dizzying aspects on the real thing and those kinds of things aren't really there to help out with the VR version. Still, in that situation I would say it's an expected part of the experience.

I should probably add that I adjust in my seat fairly often and I think that the positional tracking is a big help from that viewpoint on the DK2 since if I sit up, slouch down, jump up to sit cross-legged or whatever having the video in the Rift match my movements likely helps a lot by reducing the little things that probably would accumulate over time to making me feel nauseous in the DK1.

So for me, the DK2 is a pretty big step up, but it has not completely eliminated some of the discomfort of VR sickness.

kevinw729
Honored Visionary
"rtweed" wrote:
Is this a scientific study that's published somewhere? I too would be very keen to see hard data on this based on controlled trials rather than anecdotes.


The study was involved with the VR work we were doing at Disney Imagineering - we went to great lengths to ensure that we had an understanding of the fundamentals of immersive entertainment systems. Sadly many of the lessons learned have been ignored. I touched on some of this in my Road To VR special:

http://www.roadtovr.com/wider-fov-special-guide-virtual-reality-demonstrations/3/

"rtweed" wrote:
I've also heard about other research into suppressing the senses by other means (electrical or magnetic stimulation) in order to eliminate sim-sickness, but I haven't managed to find detailed published references recording the effectiveness, side-effects, etc.


We (my consultancy) are collecting sim-sickness information, but as there is a dedicated effort by some to down play nausea and VR related issues we are waiting till after CV1, to release this; though we do touch on some information in the book just written.

"rtweed" wrote:
It's possible Oculus is working on that kind of research in secret, but it seems unlikely they will have a "hardware solution" for CV1. If nothing else, such a solution would need to undergo rigorous clinical trials.


I am sure that OVR/FB, as well as Samsung, have for some time compiled internally information on issues (cause and effect). But as liability is an issue when releasing a consumer product (as SEGA found out with their VR system as well as Nintendo with their 3D systems), it is best to not publicize this information - or admit knowledge of any serious concerns, as "ambulance chasers" will go to town if any injury can be proven.

There is a rumor about the disclaimer for the Samsung ‘VR Gear’ to be launched at ITA – and it would seem that sim-sickness liability is playing on their minds. The increasing rate of nausea we are seeing posted on R/Oculus and even here opening the door to the concerns voiced back with DK1 – but not as much as some had speculated.
https://vrawards.aixr.org/ "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities" https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959

rtweed
Honored Guest
I had a thought last night. Has anyone done an experiment to find out if specific wavelengths of light have an impact on nausea? Our eyes and brain respond very differently to different wavelengths: blue light stimulates cortisol production and suppresses melatonin, whereas red light only stimulates red cones on the retina; it does not stimulate rods at all. Green light stimulates both rods and cones, but isn't linked to hormone production in the way that blue light is.

It's pretty clear that there are significant differences between these 3 types of light. It's not a coincidence that displays are RGB and our retinal cones have peak sensitivity to red, green and blue. The great thing about that for experimentation is that if we only illuminate either the R, G or B sub-pixels, we will only stimulate one type of cone, and in the case of red light, we don't stimulate rods at all. The RGB outputs are already optimised to the correct wavelengths for this to work correctly, because that's how displays work!

Polyworld or another demo in a similar style would be ideal to test this hypothesis, because of it's simple flat shading (which won't look noisy when colour information is lost). Just render illuminance only (or convert the final render to black and white as a post-processing step) then translate that to either the red, green or blue channel in the final output (after all lighting calculations; not sure if the Oculus driver's chromatic distortion needs to be bypassed, but probably not). Leave the other channels at zero. Try each version to see if the nausea effects are identical or not.

My main VR project is going to be somewhat similar in style to Polyworld, but I'm just getting started with UE4 so I don't have a working engine to try stuff like this out on, otherwise I'd try it out and see what happens. Apart from anything, I think a single-colour filter might look cool, even though it might break the sense of realism because only about 1 in 3 (2 or 3 in 7 on pentile) of sub-pixels will be used, creating a greatly exaggerated screen door effect.

It also might be interesting to see if the change in SDE makes nausea better or worse - my feeling is that the SDE acts like another kind of anchor and reduces nausea, which is probably partly why, for me at least, character-turn nausea is worse in DK2 than DK1. Unfortunately without adding a blurring device, I don't think it's possible to control for colour and SDE independently. However, a positive or negative change in nausea for all single colours would imply that SDE is responsible, whereas a different change for one specific colour would imply that colour sensitivity is responsible.

Grimman
Honored Guest
First experience in VR today after getting my DK2 delivered.

I tried the Desk Demo, Oculus World and Helix rollercoaster. After about ~40 minutes of trying these demos, I developed a slight headache. I also was slightly disoriented and had a weird feeling in my stomach, but didn't feel like I was going to puke.

I should point out that I felt fine during these demos, it was only after I quit and decided to take a break that these "symptoms" appeared. I felt a little bit weird when I first started the desk demo, but after I set my IPD, it felt a lot better. Oculus World and Helix rollercoaster caused no problems when I tried them.

Normally I don't get any sort of motion sickness, so I just probably haven't managed to get my VR Legs yet. Not to mention the heat wave that is going through here, that isn't helping much either :lol:

rtweed
Honored Guest
"Grimman" wrote:
I should point out that I felt fine during these demos, it was only after I quit and decided to take a break that these "symptoms" appeared.


Probably eyestrain more than anything. One of the things about eyestrain is that it comes on gradually and you keep compensating for it, so you don't really notice it happening at the time. When you move away from the screen/HMD, you suddenly notice you have a headache. It's a good idea to take frequent breaks and go focus on thing that are different distances away from your eyes. This is especially important with HMDs where your eyes must relax and focus on infinity without converging. That's not normal and they get too used to it after a while. As has been mentioned before, this can mess with your accommodation reflex and make it hard to focus after you take off the HMD.

Try to avoid using it for more than about 15 minutes until you get used to these effects. You should also use the IPD calibration tool and try experimenting with the lenses and eye relief settings to make sure you aren't straining your eyes more than necessary.