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The Index thread (please keep to subject)

Techy111
Volunteer Moderator
Volunteer Moderator
As per the title, please respect the users who post here and keep it on topic, any nonsense and......grrr
A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

2,585 REPLIES 2,585

pyroth309
Level 14

RedRizla said:


Lets be honest even a geforce 1080 is capable of higher resolution then what Rift S offers as @pyroth309 found out with his Vavle index. He owns a geforce 1080 and could use the Valve index at a higher resolution, so geforce 1080 as well as 1080ti users would benefit from a higher resolution display too.




Yea, the GTX 1080 is enough to run the Index in most games at 100% at 80hz which is 2016x2240 resolution.

Beyond 80 hz though the pain starts lol and you'll have to live in Motion Smoothing or come down on SS. At 144hz I have to drop beat saber, which is far from graphic intensive, down to like 66% which is 1636x1820 to not run into Motion Smoothing. Norm from tested said it best, it's like being on caffeine. Less blur on the sabers, less blur on the fast moving boxes and I can play much faster than I could on any previous VR system I have tried. I've set a few personal bests in Beat saber in the time I was in there due to a combo of the 144hz and the tracking, several top 50 results on Steam, but I haven't been hitting it hard. Trade off of playing at 144hz at 66% is it doesn't look as clear. 

Also, to chime in on the recent discussion, I don't think any VR company is going to cater heavily to 2080TI owners or they'd never make any money. When you get to the edges of the enthusiast curve, you find that you're in a tiny minority. The main benefit is just the extra frames and performance. GTX 1080's are fairly common at this point though.  

 Still jumping around games and seeing what works well and what doesn't. I'm still planning on a Super 2080 build this month with a new Ryzen cpu so I'm looking forward to pushing the Index a bit harder on the 144hz side.

snowdog
Level 16

Spuzzum said:


snowdog said:


If you're going to criticise ANYONE with regards to their spec choices you should be criticising Valve for releasing a 1600p headset that's 2.3 times more expensive than a 1440p headset. For that sort of price I'd expect a 2160p headset at least with a Pimax sized FOV.



The Index was Valve's response to the Vive Pro...better specs, while being $400 USD cheaper for the bundle, or $300 USD cheaper just for the headset. $1000 USD is right on par for what the parts are.



$999 isn't on par for what the parts are. At all. Neither is the Vive Pro. Valve and HTC are price gouging.
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever

RuneSR2
Level 16
This review was great - or the reviewer's experience seems to nearly completely match my impressions from reading many reviews and opinions:

https://youtu.be/2nOLIXa4dBA

Also the reviewer is using glasses nearly completely the same way as I am. I too have wider (smarter) glasses I use in public, and like the reviewer I have special-made ultra-narrow and thin (high-index) glasses I use for VR. Now when using glasses inside VR, suddenly as a Rift user you're using 2 lenses, and using Valve Index your not using 2 lenses but 3 lenses - because glasses provide extra lenses. Note how the reviewer really dislikes the blacks, and that's my main worry too going from OLED to LCD, but note that the reviewer did mention the glare - at all. Coming from CV1 I know that god rays increase when you push the lenses close to your face, and the reviewer didn't dial in the lenses much due to the glasses, which may have limited the glare. 
Now take a look at the reviewer - see how small his eyes are due to the glasses - he's clearly in need (or is using) high-index lenses, like:

"How High-Index Lenses Differ From Regular Lenses

Eyeglass lenses correct refractive errors by bending (refracting) light as it passes through the lens. The amount of light-bending ability (lens power) that's needed to provide good vision is indicated on the eyeglass prescription provided by your eye doctor."

https://www.allaboutvision.com/lenses/highindx.htm

It's just a theory, but maybe using high-index lenses in the Valve Index (that's a lot of index words, lol) may have some impact on the light filtering and bending - and thereby reduce the glare - or maybe not dialing in the Index lenses may reduce the glare. Since the reviewer seems very picky about things, not describing the glare at all was a small mystery to me - he does complain (a lot) about the black levels, the thumbstick and the lack of controller support, so clearly he's not trying to be kind to Valve by not criticizing the Index. 

Some also speculate that some Index HMDs due to a hardware issue display more glare than other - but until two Index HMDs can be compared to test that theory the evidence is limited. 

Valve Index & Oculus Rift CV1, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 8TB
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

RedRizla
Level 16
@snowdog - The valve index headset is £459 compared to Rift S £399. You don't get inside out tracking or controllers, but for that £459 you get two higher resolution displays, an ipd adjuster and some great audio. The valve headset also looks to have a better build quality, so for £59 more the headset itself it isn't a bad price I reckon. And especially for those who already have the light houses from owning a Vive.
I'm not bothered about the things like finger tracking on the Valve controllers, so I would have been happy if they had just done something like the cheap Rift controllers. It seems some people are willing to pay a high price for the controllers though. Just like I'm willing to pay a higher price for better resolution displays. 
@pyroth309 - Changing out displays on a Rift -S and calling it a Rift -S Pro isn't a hard thing for Oculus to do. Lcd's are cheap and like I said there's plenty of 1080ti owners out there. There's people using the HP Reverb using a 1080ti and geforce 2080 and that's got twice the resolution of a Rift S. If you want millions of people in VR you have to cater for everyone is how I see it.
I'll wait to see what Oculus says in September before I decide on my next headset.

kevinw729
Level 15

Spuzzum said:
.....
The Index was Valve's response to the Vive Pro...better specs, while being $400 USD cheaper for the bundle, or $300 USD cheaper just for the headset. $1000 USD is right on par for what the parts are.



Sadly we have never had an official "positioning statement" from Valve on what the Valve Index is a "response" too. The company has stayed quite tight-lipped over what they envisaged for the hardware. Most of what we have learned followed the leak of images and comments from the peripheral VR executive departures, a few months back, who spoke off the record.

We have to deduce much, and that is open to interpretation, and some vested speculation. For example, some claim the HTC > Valve relationship is on the rocks, others that the Index is a answer to the Vive Pro issues, and finally that Valve wants to get the VR scene back on track focusing on high-end rather than a race to the bottom with cheap mass-market units. 

I think its clear from the releasing of the SDK for the hardware (hopefully those files are back online?) that the hobby and innovator element of Index is much greater than with any other hardware since DK2. And with the end of year planned announcement on the wireless kit, I hope to see much more innovation in content creation on the level of 'Apeture Hand Lab'. imho
https://vrawards.aixr.org/ "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities" https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959

snowdog
Level 16

RedRizla said:

@snowdog - The valve index headset is £459 compared to Rift S £399. You don't get inside out tracking or controllers, but for that £459 you get two higher resolution displays, an ipd adjuster and some great audio. The valve headset also looks to have a better build quality, so for £59 more the headset itself it isn't a bad price I reckon. And especially for those who already have the light houses from owning a Vive.
I'm not bothered about the things like finger tracking on the Valve controllers, so I would have been happy if they had just done something like the cheap Rift controllers. It seems some people are willing to pay a high price for the controllers though. Just like I'm willing to pay a higher price for better resolution displays. 
@pyroth309 - Changing out displays on a Rift -S and calling it a Rift -S Pro isn't a hard thing for Oculus to do. Lcd's are cheap and like I said there's plenty of 1080ti owners out there. There's people using the HP Reverb using a 1080ti and geforce 2080 and that's got twice the resolution of a Rift S. If you want millions of people in VR you have to cater for everyone is how I see it.
I'll wait to see what Oculus says in September before I decide on my next headset.



That's why I mentioned the $999 full bundle price and not the price of the headset. The price gouging is done by way of the price of the base stations and controllers.
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever

jab
Level 8

RedRizla said:

@snowdog - The valve index headset is £459 compared to Rift S £399. You don't get inside out tracking or controllers, but for that £459 you get two higher resolution displays, an ipd adjuster and some great audio. The valve headset also looks to have a better build quality, so for £59 more the headset itself it isn't a bad price I reckon. And especially for those who already have the light houses from owning a Vive.



And let's not forget about comfort. I can't speak for the Rift-S since I don't have one, but the Quest in it's original state is pretty much unusable for me. 10 minutes in and I have intense pains at the back of my head, no mater how I try to adjust the head strap. And if I somehow ignore that, then shortly after I also get pains at my forehead because of the weight distribution.

So the actual cost for a long time usable Quest looks something like this.
- Quest (128GB *) $499
- Vive Deluxe Audio Strap $120
- VRCover Oculus Quest Foam & Interface Basic Set $29

Total $648

*)  The 64GB (45-50GB available) version is going to be a major limitation for installing larger games in the long run.

Spuzzum
Level 9

snowdog said:


Spuzzum said:


snowdog said:


If you're going to criticise ANYONE with regards to their spec choices you should be criticising Valve for releasing a 1600p headset that's 2.3 times more expensive than a 1440p headset. For that sort of price I'd expect a 2160p headset at least with a Pimax sized FOV.



The Index was Valve's response to the Vive Pro...better specs, while being $400 USD cheaper for the bundle, or $300 USD cheaper just for the headset. $1000 USD is right on par for what the parts are.



$999 isn't on par for what the parts are. At all. Neither is the Vive Pro. Valve and HTC are price gouging.


I guess we have a difference in opinion then. Compared to everything else out there, the parts used add up to the $1000 price tag.

snowdog
Level 16

Spuzzum said:


snowdog said:


Spuzzum said:


snowdog said:


If you're going to criticise ANYONE with regards to their spec choices you should be criticising Valve for releasing a 1600p headset that's 2.3 times more expensive than a 1440p headset. For that sort of price I'd expect a 2160p headset at least with a Pimax sized FOV.



The Index was Valve's response to the Vive Pro...better specs, while being $400 USD cheaper for the bundle, or $300 USD cheaper just for the headset. $1000 USD is right on par for what the parts are.



$999 isn't on par for what the parts are. At all. Neither is the Vive Pro. Valve and HTC are price gouging.


I guess we have a difference in opinion then. Compared to everything else out there, the parts used add up to the $1000 price tag.



Only because HTC are taking the piss with their pricing as much as Valve are. The base stations is the main piss take but the controllers aren't at a decent price either. The parts used only add up to $1000 if you're okay with price gouging. The 2.0 base stations are cheaper to manufacture than the 1.0 base stations but Valve are selling them for MORE than HTC are selling the 1.0 base stations for. It's been widely publicised that Valve are charging OEMs $60 plus shipping for 2.0 base stations. Which points to them costing LESS than $60 to make, because Valve love profits.

Now I don't have a problem with companies making profits, after all Oculus are charging $399/£399 for the Rift S, so they're probably making around a hundred notes profit on each headset sold. What I DO have a problem with though is blatant price gouging. Valve could have quite easily had the full bundle for a couple of hundred quid/dollars cheaper and STILL made a decent profit on each unit sold.
"This you have to understand. There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything. Give him back something broken."

Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever

Spuzzum
Level 9

snowdog said:


Spuzzum said:


snowdog said:


Spuzzum said:


snowdog said:


If you're going to criticise ANYONE with regards to their spec choices you should be criticising Valve for releasing a 1600p headset that's 2.3 times more expensive than a 1440p headset. For that sort of price I'd expect a 2160p headset at least with a Pimax sized FOV.



The Index was Valve's response to the Vive Pro...better specs, while being $400 USD cheaper for the bundle, or $300 USD cheaper just for the headset. $1000 USD is right on par for what the parts are.



$999 isn't on par for what the parts are. At all. Neither is the Vive Pro. Valve and HTC are price gouging.


I guess we have a difference in opinion then. Compared to everything else out there, the parts used add up to the $1000 price tag.



Only because HTC are taking the piss with their pricing as much as Valve are. The base stations is the main piss take but the controllers aren't at a decent price either. The parts used only add up to $1000 if you're okay with price gouging. The 2.0 base stations are cheaper to manufacture than the 1.0 base stations but Valve are selling them for MORE than HTC are selling the 1.0 base stations for. It's been widely publicised that Valve are charging OEMs $60 plus shipping for 2.0 base stations. Which points to them costing LESS than $60 to make, because Valve love profits.

Now I don't have a problem with companies making profits, after all Oculus are charging $399/£399 for the Rift S, so they're probably making around a hundred notes profit on each headset sold. What I DO have a problem with though is blatant price gouging. Valve could have quite easily had the full bundle for a couple of hundred quid/dollars cheaper and STILL made a decent profit on each unit sold.



Sorry...I should have said the price of the parts, and the cost of manufacturing. Nobody sells for the sam price as the BOM...you also have rent, electricity, and wages. You also have to make a profit...it's called business. But...compared to what's out there...parts wise...$1,000 for what the Index is on par with today's market. If you don't agree...oh well. Life goes on.

Valve said themselves...HTC has that 10% markup, though I think it's much higher. That's why Valve got into the Index in the first place.


edit: Also, not sure what HTC or Oculus does when it comes to shipping, but Valve's $1000 price tag includes the cost of shipping.