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The Index thread (please keep to subject)

Techy111
MVP
MVP
As per the title, please respect the users who post here and keep it on topic, any nonsense and......grrr
A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

2,973 REPLIES 2,973

RuneSR2
Grand Champion

Had more time to test games with the Index and RTX 3090 - and if this game blew me away using the CV ss 2.0, it totally blew me away with the Index, lol:

 

 

This is one game where the Index fov really kicked in - felt a lot bigger than CV1. I started the game with all settings maxed out - and got solid 90 fps - even with like 20 cars or more on the screen. Then I remembered that I had to set SteamVR res, because I only used res 100%, and yes there were jaggies. 

So set res to 200% and restarted the game - held my breath - but still solid 90 fps, just awesome! To this day I have never played a racing game that looked and performed better. Love the arcade style of this game, I'm no simmer and I do not enjoy having to spend much time setting up the car. Also I just use a gamepad, I have no plans of getting a wheel, lol. So do call me a casual race driver 😁 Btw, DiRT 1-2 also work great with the Index, but I think I had a few locations with lower than 90 fps in DiRT 2 using Ultra and 4xMSAA and res 200%. There might be some Ultra settings costing way too much performance, but haven't found it yet (truth told I can't see any differences between Ultra and High, so may be silly focusing on Ultra). Still even with Ultra I get 90 fps nearly all the time. Cars 1-2 are great too, but I prefer the tracks and the vistas/scenery in Cars 3. Sound in Cars 3 is much better with the CV1 headphones. 

 

Next up, while I had the gamepad activated, was The Persistence Enhanced:

 

 

Like with the CV1, the game does not remember the VR setting and it starts the 2D version. You have to switch to desktop view and find a mouse or keyboard to activate the VR version. Because gamepad support is not very well integrated in SteamVR, this was very cumbersome - but I did manage to start the game in VR. The game does not look great with res 100%, but res 200% looked great. I was suspecting needing oled for this game, but it looks surprisingly awesome using the Index. 

Now, as with the CV1, do not activate ray-traced reflections, even though these did look better with the Index than CV1, probably due to the higher res. The ray-traced reflections are very demanding even with the RTX 3090, but using "ray-traced effects" while deactivating "ray-traced reflections" worked great. I used both DLSS Quality and Balanced. Balanced was better at keeping 90 fps - note that this game is extremely demanding and maybe res 150% is better, I have not tried that. 

The good stuff - graphics are awesome with the Index, I can see details impossible to see with the CV1, like the finer details in the floor textures etc. And the fov is just ... big! Weapons look much better because you can see many more fine details. Performance is close to CV1 ss 2.0, so the game is performing quite nice - even with res 200%.

Still I think I'm going to prefer CV1 ss 2.0 for this game. First of all it's much better to use gamepad with Oculus games, as you can control everything with the gamepad. As mentioned it's very cumbersome starting the game using Index, but takes seconds with the CV1 thanks to Oculus' awesome gamepad support. 

And DLSS is on top of TAA, thus even if the game looks great with the Index, you can't escape the TAA lcd blur. Using the CV1 I don't get blur, but of course I have to live with the SDE. Also I think performance was slightly better with the CV1 ss 2.0, but that could just be ASW 2.0 fooling my brain, lol. The game supports native Oculus drivers - but so does Cars 3. 

Sound was great with the Index, but I still think CV1 has the upper hand here due to more bass - for voices Index did by far provide the best 3D-ish spatial sound experience. Btw, this game is like one gigantic Jeff level in Alyx, you're never relaxed, and the horror doesn't exactly decrease in later levels - thus this game isn't for everyone, not even sure it's for me, I just have to endure the horror and semi-jump scares to see the amazing levels, lol. Feels much like System Shock 2 with up-to-date graphics - but more about the game here:

 

https://forums.oculusvr.com/t5/Games-and-Apps/The-Persistence-First-VR-game-to-support-DLSS-and-RTX-...

 

Thus Cars 3 is a clear win for the Index, for now Persistence Enhanced is a win for Oculus/CV1. 

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

Anonymous
Not applicable

I was going to suggest selling it rather than "throwing out the window".

😉

pyroth309
Visionary

How come you limit the supersampling to 200% in SteamVR? CV1 at 2.0 Pixel Density would need around 400% SS in SteamVR to be equal. Run the Index at 400% to see a similar amount of super sampling as the CV1 is getting. With the default render target changed in SteamVR, it can go all the way up to 500% now. (Actually can go beyond that too but that requires some extra work).

 

I imagine you're trying to stick to the same amount of pixels but that gives an unfair advantage imo to the lower res headset. I'd rather see the point where further supersampling becomes irrelevant, or the point where performance becomes unbearable for each headset with your GPU.

 

I run most games at 300% with no issues with a 3090. Heavier graphical games I'll back down to 250 or even 200 if necessary. I think the only game I run at 200% though is No Man's Sky. Of course, I rarely bother with refresh rates above 90. I'd rather have the GPU producing eye candy and sharpness over the smoothness. But to each his own.

You are right that res 300% can have benefits, like in Viveport Video clearly res 300% provides much more antialiasing than res 200%, but Viveport Video has no built-in graphics option for antialiasing. In most games I don't see much difference between res 200% and res 300%, but maybe it's time to test it more 🙂

Seems like I get much similar performance using Rift ss 2.0 and Index res 200%, but both are 17-18 mill pixels per image.

I'm pretty sure demanding games like Cars 3 can't do 90 fps with Ultra settings and res 300%, but I'll test it later. At least The Persistence is struggling even at res 200%, then again that game is a different story.

 

Right now I'm just enjoying being able to use res 200% in close to all my Steam games even with highest graphics settings enabled. 

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

RuneSR2
Grand Champion

Just tested Cars 3, res 300% seems to provide slightly more antialiasing for cables and other high contrast objects, but there's still a need for further antialiasing and it doesn't look much better than res 200%. Also I no longer get solid 90 fps with res 300%, so res 200% seems to be the sweet spot for that game (maybe res 250%) - and with res 200% the game is smooth as silk...

 

Now the Museum of Other Realities had the perfect room to demonstrate the full power of Index res 200 - 400%, namely The Vestige. The Vestige has some line art, and you see it far away. Here the change going from res 200% to 400% really is like night and day, so clearly it matters a lot going beyond res 200% in some cases. 

 

Now I tried Starbear Taxi using res 200% and 400%, but there were not much difference here. But objects are close, and no high contrast objects are seen. This was a game where I was sure to get 90 fps even using res 400% 😉

 

Tried some Chinese app showing paintings in a grotto, and could use res 400% here, it really looked great, but the SteamVR res slider sort of crashed, so could not compare with res 200%. Seems that SteamVR doesn't like changing a lot to res 400%, lol. 

 

Surely, for some apps where you can maintain 90 fps, res 400% may make great sense - especially apps with many high contrast objects.

 

In most games I do feel that Index res 200% provides great image quality - thus I'm fine with it. 

 

Might try Compound and WW1 Warplanes tomorrow res 400% in 144 Hz 🙂 These games worked using res 200% and 144 Hz even with my GTX 1080.

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

pyroth309
Visionary

Yea I just let motion smoothing/reprojection kick in and go down to 45 fps if I need to/it works well in that particular game. I also will dip down to 80hz/40 fps if it's a game where I don't need fast motion and want to keep the image crisp.

The best case is like a 20-25% additional sharpness for 200% more SS when you go up to 400. In some games though that extra sharpness helps a lot. Even going to 300% is a significant change from 200 for tiny stuff.

 

I don't run at 400% much, but I like to jump to it to start out to see what games look like and then I back down to a playable range. Usually 300%.

The point also being that if res 300+ % is free, of course we should use it. I'm confident I can up all games where I got solid 90 fps in res 200% with the GTX 1080 to res 300% with the 3090 - or more. But if I can't see a clear difference in some games, maybe 144 fps res 200% will be more interesting than res 300% in 90 Hz 🤔

 

Would be great if Hz could be set for each game, it's a bit cumbersome needing to manually change Hz for each game. Maybe a future SteamVR update will support that, or maybe Valve doesn't want us to change Hz often (I don't know if switching often to 144 Hz and back will increase some wear'n tear... 80-90-120 feel like soft transitions, while 144 Hz feels like some semi-mechanical switch being activated, thus going 144 fps slightly worry me, lol).

 

Btw, nice to really experience The Vestige in Museum of Other Realities with res 400%, lol - now I'm confident my Index can fully bring a RTX 5090 to it's knees in 2025 😂

 

The benefit of res 400% may be making distant objects appear sharper. Not sure you gain much on close objects, especially if a game/app provide some antialiasing. And because you can see sharply for quite some distance with res 200%, maybe res 400% (or 300%) will be more a feinschmecker option. Another benefit of extreme res may be reducing the TAA blur, where res 200% is far to low to get rid of the blur. 

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

pyroth309
Visionary

Yea it will make little difference in large objects,, IE stuff up close. Where it's most noticeable is in distant stuff. Star Wars Squadrons for example, it makes the distant objects/lods look a lot clearer the higher you go. Even on Reverb G2 I saw noticeable improvement up to 150% on it. Really helps for immersion to me when I can look out on the horizon and it looks more realistic instead of just a blocky/blurry mess out there.

 

So yea, it's all a balancing act. I was just saying 200% shouldn't be a hard cap because you can see improvement beyond that in some games and sometimes it's a big difference. By all means run 200% and higher refresh if that is more appealing.

RuneSR2
Grand Champion

It's a special day today 

RuneSR2_0-1624957153619.png

 

r345.jpg

https://twitter.com/valvesoftware/status/1409637967971241985

 

Kinda like using a CV1 in early 2018 😉

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

RuneSR2
Grand Champion

One Index dude wrote to me - when we talked about Project Cars 3 and controllers:

 

"I am everything or nothing type of guy maybe it's mental but i know for sure i will plow 500$ for a force feedback wheel at some point instead of trying it with a controller first. I just have not enough real life racing opportunities near and **bleep** is expensive in real life so i was thinking about most realistic VR setup. So from my pov it doesn't make sense to play it with controllers cause that will teach me nothing. H3vr teached me basics of guns, alyx fighting with aliens, eleven tennis - tennis, now some driving skills would be cool if it translated to rl. Then i got to buy joystick and do some jumbojet piloting crash course

 

then DJing

 

i just don't treat VR like a games but more like that matrix scene where Morpheus teaches Neo kung fu"

 

At first I did consider that this dude might not be *cough* mentally stable, but on the other hand I do understand what he's trying to communicate. To me Alyx is not a game, it's a world simulator, and I love to be there. Lone Echo never felt like a game to me either. Sure, Eleven Tennis felt real - even more so with the Index. I'm not much into driving sims, but agreed - DiRT 1-2 are quite immersive, even if it's not fully the real thing, lol. 

Love to hear when some persons transcend what I'd consider the normal boundaries of VR - and take the immersion a bit further. Maybe I did that too in 2017 - Lone Echo really blew my mind back then. And I guess Alyx still does - every time. 

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"