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The Index thread (please keep to subject)

Techy111
Level 15
As per the title, please respect the users who post here and keep it on topic, any nonsense and......grrr
A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.

2,952 REPLIES 2,952

EDIT: Just fixed several typos - never write posts in a hurry, lol

 

Did read your comments about the 8KX on Reddit 😉 That was a brave thing to do - buying the 8KX, but great to hear you confirmed the issues I'd expect without having tried the 8KX. 

Again, I'd love great res and giant fov - nothing would be more awesome, but yesterday I kinda realized that the RTX 3090 finally gave me perfect/optimal performance and image quality (ss 2.0+) with the Rift CV1. Not the Index, but the old and dusty CV1. Now I finally can use my CV1 with all bells and whistles on (aa 1.0 or higher) - and no longer get 45 fps ASW like with the GTX 1080. That said, in Green Hell VR I'm still down to just ss 1.32 (ss 1.2 OTT, and in-game high res adds 10% = +0.12) - and Seeking Dawn is ss 1.6 - but about 98% of my CV1 games now run in solid 90 fps using at least ss 2.0. 

Index and Vive Pro add 80% more res than the CV1 - that's still a massive increase, and due to Index' lcd I now can see tons of jaggies if the res is too low. CV1 magically hides most jaggies at the expense of SDE. 

A game like Project Cars 2 looks optimal for the CV1 when using Ultra settings and ss 2.0 (but I can see tons of SDE), and there're no jaggies and I get solid 90 fps. (That's a dream come true - a few years ago even the most high-end laptops struggles getting just 60 fps using Ultra settings in the 2D version - now I can do 2 x 90 fps Ultra with the CV1 thanks to the RTX 3090 - but we keep wanting more and may easily forget to cherish such gains.) Using Index res 200% in the same game (which is much same res as CV1 ss 2.0, both about 17-18 mill pixels per frame), I no longer get 90 fps but stuttering - and even at res 175% the game has prominent jaggies and starts getting very blurry. So higher res with many subpixels also means you need very high amounts of antialiasing, can see that many Pimax owners say that these hmds love high levels of super sampling. But I have no performance to spare with the Index: how can I possibly fuel even higher res hmds with a RTX 3090, when it's barely enough for the Index? 

 

When they get eye tracking and foveated rendering working, maybe it's time for very high-res hmds with big fovs - until that happens I'll probably stick with the Index. Also Index is awesome for most games, and many simple games work with res 400 - 500%, but unfortunately I prefer the most demanding VR experiences, sigh 😉

 

PS. Would love to hear more about the 8kx experience - did you test it using the OpenVR Benchmark? I do not trust most Youtubers, but I do trust your words! 🙂

Valve Index & Oculus Rift CV1, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 8TB
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

RuneSR2
Level 15

Not easy remembering all these numbers - but here are the burdens the gpu have to carry when starting to increase the SteamVR resolution with the Index - I just did the math 😇 🤓 (Note that the Vive Pro uses same res as the Index, so the numbers below also represent the Vive Pro)

 

Index.png

 

It does give a nice idea about what happens when going from res 100 % to 500 % - or from 9 mill pixels to 45 mill. 

Index typically needs about res 200% to shine - if temporal antialiasing (TAA) is used, you may need at least res 300% to significantly reduce the blur. With TAA, the higher the Index res, the lesser the blur. Just try Wolfenstein Cyberpilot - going from res 250% to res 375 % feels like getting a new and much more high-res hmd!

Note that ss with the CV1 is calculated in a different way - here ss 2.0 is about 17 mill pixels, thus similar to Index res 200%, but for the CV1 ss 2.5 is about 27 mill pixels and corresponds to Index res 300%, not 250%. Comparing different hmds is complicated 😉 

Valve Index & Oculus Rift CV1, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 8TB
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

RuneSR2
Level 15

Not sure how interesting this is - but maybe better than nothing, lol:

 

" The latest update to SteamVR includes a curious addition… a new SteamVR Home destination that includes CT scans of dead bugs “found lying on the ground” outside of Valve’s office."

Source: https://www.roadtovr.com/valve-adds-bugs-latest-steamvr-1-23-update/

 

18749dbbc1d1be19d57210cb63995904bb36d358.png

0e603c3f28d6ecc1afff2a9309e02bcdacb94189 (1).png

 

Direct link to the bugs:

 

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2846608501

 

Since Valve considered The Lab a full game, maybe they consider the bugs some major release too? 🤔 😄 

 

Full info here:

 

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/250820/view/3387289425146917362

Valve Index & Oculus Rift CV1, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 8TB
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

RoastPork
Meta Quest Support
Meta Quest Support

Not gonna lie, that is weird lol

Now you're playing with power...SUPER power!

RuneSR2
Level 15

So wireless is finally coming - but I don't plan on getting that, I don't mind the wire and don't need more batteries to charge...

 

Valve Index & Oculus Rift CV1, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 8TB
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

@RuneSR2   I'd guess that the developer will eventually make versions for other DisplayPort headsets.  Because it's like the Quest and uses WIFI the power requirements are much lower than say my Vive wireless adapter that uses a PCIe WiGig card.  For example my Vive Pro with its wireless adapter only gets about 2 hours runtime with a 10000mahr battery pack.  That same pack would run my Quest 2 wireless with Air Link for about 4-5 hours.  Plus the Vive wireless adapter tends to get pretty warm, almost hot.  Going to be good news for laptop users as well since they cannot plug in the WiGig cards anyway.

 

I guess if you used a 20000mahr pack you'd get about 8 hours, or about the same as your Index controller battery.  I will say that once you taste the freedom of wireless, it's very hard to go back to being tethered imho.

i9 9900k, rtx3090, 32 Gb ram, 1tb ssd, 4tb hdd. xi hero wifi mb, 750w psu, Q2 w/Air Link, Vive Pro


@TomCgcmfc wrote:

I will say that once you taste the freedom of wireless, it's very hard to go back to being tethered imho.


 

Exactly. I never realized how immersion breaking the Wire is on a VR headset until I finally got rid of it. Wireless PCVR is amazing. It's nice to see the Valve Index finally going tether free. I had no doubt that this would happen eventually. Tethered VR is rather archaic going in to 2023.

RuneSR2
Level 15

Seems like the wireless Index kit is very popular - devs wanted about 200k on Kickstarter, seems they may have gotten 500k soon, it's already over 400k:

 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nofio/nofio-wireless-adapter-for-valve-index/

 

It does look awesome - and the lowest latency you can get - it seems:

 

nofio-left.jpg

nofio-back.jpg

nofio-rear.jpg

 

More info here:

 

https://www.roadtovr.com/valve-index-nofio-transmitter-kickstarter/

 

Btw, fun vid - for 5 years never had such issues with the cable, lol:

 

Valve Index & Oculus Rift CV1, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 8TB
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

RuneSR2
Level 15

I keep hearing Index users say that going beyond SteamVR res 150% has no/little impact on image quality. Nothing could be more wrong. So I tried to take some shots showing differences in image quality when using Index res 100% (about 9 mill pixels per frame for both eyes), 200% (about 18 mill pixels) and 400% (36 mill pixels). Here are some examples, click on an image to enlarge or differences can be harder to see:

 

GNOMES & GOBLINS

Gnomes.JPG

Gnomes & Goblins with res 400% - full-size image

 

Gnomes100.JPG

Gnomes & Goblins with res 100% - zoomed-in image

 

Gnomes200.JPG

Gnomes & Goblins with res 200% - zoomed-in image

 

Gnomes400.JPG

Gnomes & Goblins with res 400% - zoomed-in image - still 90 fps with a RTX 3090

 

OBDUCTION

Obdduction.JPG

Obduction with res 400% - full-size image

 

Obduction 100.JPG

Obduction with res 100% - zoomed-in image

 

Obduction 200.JPG

Obduction with res 200% - zoomed-in image

 

Obduction 400.JPG

Obduction with res 400% - zoomed-in image. See how the lines in the windows are clear. The game now performs in 45 fps, but motion smoothing works wonders

    

WOLFENSTEIN: CYBERPILOT

Wolf.JPG

Wolfenstein: Cyberpilot with res 400% - full-size image

 

Wolf100.JPG

Wolfenstein: Cyberpilot with res 100% - zoomed-in image

 

Wolf200.JPG

Wolfenstein: Cyberpilot with res 200% - zoomed-in image

 

Wolf400.JPG

Wolfenstein: Cyberpilot with res 400% - zoomed-in image. Now down to 45 fps, but again motion smoothing works wonders. In this game the difference between res 200% and 400% is like night and day...

 

Mona Lisa: Beyond the Glass

Mona.JPG

Mona Lisa: Beyond the Glass - with res 400% - full-size image

 

Mona100.JPG

Mona Lisa: Beyond the Glass with res 100% - zoomed-in image

 

Mona200.JPG

Mona Lisa: Beyond the Glass with res 250% - zoomed-in image

 

Mona500.JPG

Mona Lisa: Beyond the Glass with res 500% - zoomed-in image

 

When I had a GTX 1080, I was thinking that Index res 200% was close to as good as it gets for image quality. It may depend on the game, Mona Lisa does win something going from res 250% to 500%, but not that much - while for a game like Wolfenstein: Cyberpilot the difference between res 200% and 400% is profound. Also thanks to @pyroth309 for mentioning that using extreme res greatly improved image quality - also blurry TAA (temporal antialiasing) becomes very sharp using extreme res. 

 

The take-home message: try to increase res as much as you can, especially distant objects (see Obduction above) can become much more clear and sharp. This can greatly increase 3D depth perception (=how far you can see clearly). You also gain more antialiasing.

 

For those new to super sampling, Nvidia explains the mechanisms quite nicely here (focusing on a 2D monitor, but it works similarly for VR):

 

Valve Index & Oculus Rift CV1, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 8TB
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

Btw, just to mention it, but I think something is strange with the Mona Lisa: Beyond the Glass. That is, res 500% feels less sharp than it ought to be. For the original screenshots I get the following sizes (for one eye):

 

Res 100% = 1137x1137 (=1.3 mill)

Res 250% = 1797x1797 (=3.2 mill)

Res 500% = 1820x1820 (=3.3 mill)

 

Now compare that to Wolfenstein: Cyberpilot:

 

Res 100% = 1137x1137 (=1.3 mill)

Res 200% = 1604x1604 (=2.6 mill)

Res 400% = 2274x2274 (=5.2 mill)

 

There's a perceptible improvement in Mona Lisa going from res 250% to 500%, but it feels like the app has been capped. Or maybe the source material is not that great. I took some new shots from Mona Lisa, here outside the museum:

 

100.JPG

Index res 100%

 

250.JPG

Index res 250% 

 

500.JPG

Index res 500%

 

The difference between res 250% and 500% is too subtle - and may not represent this jump in res in other apps. Still, getting to see the Mona Lisa for free, do push the res as much as possible 🙂

 

Gnomes and Goblins even seems down-sampled, maybe to gain performance?

 

Res 100% = 796x796 (=0.63 mill)

Res 200% = 1123x1123 (=1.26 mill)

Res 400% = 1592x1592 (=2.53 mill)

 

For Oblivion I get:

Res 100% = 1137x1137 (=1.3 mill)

Res 200% = 1607x1607 (=2.6 mill)

Res 400% = 1820x1820 (=3.3 mill)

 

I wonder if devs can choose a game's base resolution, which may differ from the res shown in SteamVR... And if some games are capped at 1820x1820. Maybe these differences do explain why Cyberpilot being un-capped gains so much from res 400%?

   

Valve Index & Oculus Rift CV1, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 8TB
"Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"